[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Honda definitely understands the Indian junta's psyche. Or Indians are suckers for Honda. How else would you explain the popularity of the Splendor, the Unicorn, and the Activa. Class leading modeals all - by HUGE margins.

But I don't think the CBR250R sells at all, nowhere near the numbers needed to justify manufacturing (I mean where most of the value addition, and most vendors) in India.
Knowing that (and more importantly Honda knowing that), all I can say is that either the Honda 650 is a pipe dream (notwithstanding statements from Honda management) or India is going to be the manufacturing hub for exports. And Honda have not talked anything about exports.

Look at what happened to the Inazuma.

Will wait and watch with (un)bated breath!

Regards
Sutripta

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

But I don't think the CBR250R sells at all, nowhere near the numbers needed to justify manufacturing (I mean where most of the value addition, and most vendors) in India.
Knowing that (and more importantly Honda knowing that), all I can say is that either the Honda 650 is a pipe dream (notwithstanding statements from Honda management) or India is going to be the manufacturing hub for exports. And Honda have not talked anything about exports.

Look at what happened to the Inazuma.

Will wait and watch with (un)bated breath!

Regards
Sutripta

I agree with you. I am frankly highly unenthused by anything Honda. How they can burn the tracks of Moto GP with the fastest/quickest bikes, and still offer such uninspiring fare commercially is something I have never understood. Now this price news has doused my brief interest even before it got properly ignited.

[Sutripta]

I have a cbr250r. It is the blandest, most docile, soulless bike you can think of. But know what - it is my bike of choice, esp. if riding solo (solo as in no other riding buddy. I don't carry pillion deadweight!) I don't have to think about it, and I have full faith in it.
Reliable cars sure have spoilt us. (By us, I mean we pampered car guys, not diehard devil may care laugh at sleet, snow and heavy downpours bikers.)

Anyway, this thread is not about Honda bikes, but about the manufacture of the 650 in India. To me, the numbers don't add up.

Regards
Sutripta

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

I have a cbr250r. It is the blandest, most docile, soulless bike you can think of. But know what - it is my bike of choice, esp. if riding solo (solo as in no other riding buddy. I don't carry pillion deadweight!) I don't have to think about it, and I have full faith in it.
Reliable cars sure have spoilt us. (By us, I mean we pampered car guys, not diehard devil may care laugh at sleet, snow and heavy downpours bikers.)

Anyway, this thread is not about Honda bikes, but about the manufacture of the 650 in India. To me, the numbers don't add up.

Regards
Sutripta

Ooops!

Anyways, while Honda does occupy a space in the Indian collective subconscious as standing for reliability and quality, is it not true that the CBR250 per se had its fair share of niggles and build quality issues, and even a callback?

[Silverflash]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Anyways, while Honda does occupy a space in the Indian collective subconscious as standing for reliability and quality, is it not true that the CBR250 per se had its fair share of niggles and build quality issues, and even a callback?

I find that Honda's reputation is well earned, but is also often overstated, much like Apple make nice phones, but their aesthetic appeal and design sensibilities are often over-rated by the app-sheep.

Also like Apple, their pricing strategy seems to be to ask themselves the question "How much is too much?" and then price it just a little higher than that number, to reinforce their premium brand image.

I don't blame them entirely. It is after all, a legitimate pricing strategy adopted by many brands. I blame end customers who plonk down top dollar just on the company's say so. 10 lakh for a touring 650 made right here in India with an underpowered inline-4 is highway robbery, if you'll excuse the pun.

Anyway, comparisons between the Daytona 675 and the CBR650 are moot. Not the same category of bike, and the Daytone is a fully loaded piece of kit. The Honda has an inline-4 and... what else? Not even in the same game.

[Sutripta]

Imp notice: Not wanting to get into any arguments with people who think that their steeds are the mostest, bestest, all singingest all dancingest, and that all others are a POS. (quite fun actually, this is after all an enthusiasts forum). But by implication anyone who does not agree has the mental ability between that of a cretin and a retard. (Not fun. And gets people hot and bothered.)

Having got that off

Originally Posted by ebonho

Anyways, while Honda does occupy a space in the Indian collective subconscious as standing for reliability and quality, is it not true that the CBR250 per se had its fair share of niggles and build quality issues, and even a callback?

Not just Honda, the (Indian)UJM. Anyway I hold Yamaha quality to be one notch higher.
Recall, if I remember rightly was over MC issues of the non ABS bike. Any brake issue has to be treated as very very serious. I don't know how many were actually affected, and to what extent, and how many were precautionary.

The most talked about (tons and tons of indignant posts from apoplectic people) issues were rusting on mirror (and other) bolts, and of powder coating coming off on some parts. My bike also has that. (It has another issue which no one mentions - the levers leave bad black marks on my fingers). I treat these as a minor irritation. (Much like the hoo ha about the Street 750s exposed wiring, and visible tank seam)

The important thing was whether these were sympomatic of general quality standards. Might be, but so far seems OK.

Regards
Sutripta

[shan_ned]

This is very much my personal/subjective opinion and so it may not be applicable for all. In terms of the fun factor, are the inline 4s an overkill for the sports tourer category ?. For that category, we may hardly find any difference between a parallel twin and an inline 4 in the low and mid end power delivery. If someone still prefers an inline 4 for some other reasons, that is fine. If one is more practical and realistic, he will prefer the most reliable and the cheaper option irrespective of the number of cylinders. Again, this logic is for the sports tourers category only. Going by that, I will pick up 650F only if it's pricing is same as N650.

As ebonho rightly pointed out, CBR650F is an inline 4 only technically, but that does not reflect anything on the road (real world conditions) even if it is slightly powerful than N650. So in that case, why do I need to pay some extra price just because it is an inline 4 only technically ? Or are we simply obsessed with the inline 4s just for the simple reason that it has an entry in the spec sheet ? I understand the need for inline 4s when it comes to tracks and brutal riding, but I won't take it so seriously for other riding conditions unless the pricing is good. Of course, some one would argue about the exhaust sound of 650F over it's parallel twin competitors.. Each individual has his own priorities.

[ebonho]

Originally Posted by shan_ned

As ebonho rightly pointed out, CBR650F is an inline 4 only technically, but that does not reflect anything on the road (real world conditions) even if it is slightly powerful than N650.

My point is simple. In India, amongst us paying Indian public, there are some "holy cows." Honda is one of them. Toyota is another. They can do no wrong. Pointing out their shortcomings will invite a barrage of wrath amd epitephs.

Do the same to a Tata or a Bajaj, and then its open season. Then everyone is an enlightened and mature and unbiased tech head.

Sorry, but that does not wash with many of us.

Am out of this thread. And other such.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

(It has another issue which no one mentions - the levers leave bad black marks on my fingers). I treat these as a minor irritation.

You know what..? My bike has it too and I was always thinking as to what the hell goes wrong...Any idea as to what causes this?

And as far as pricing this Honda at 10L is considered, I would suggest Honda to look at other manufacturer's cubic capacity, the power they belt out and most importantly, the frame.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by Sheel

Any idea as to what causes this?

Reaction of our sweat with the metal. Put a heat shrink tubing on the lever. And post in the 250 thread for more comments. aargee is the keeper of the flame there.

And as far as pricing this Honda at 10L is considered

I think one should wait for details rather than speculate. But at these price ranges, buying a bike is an emotional response. And in that this bike (at least in my eyes) scores poorly on the lustometer.
Would love to be privy to Honda's thinking (as opposed to their public statements) on 'manufacturing' this bike in India. It does not make business (as in turning a profit) sense.

Regards
Sutripta

[Nithesh_M]

I like this Honda bashing on the speculated pricing of 10 lakhs. Really, why would Honda price something that is sold at 5.6 lakhs in Thailand with ABS at 10 lakhs in India?
Its not a supersport and neither will this bike be brought in as CBU to command 10 lakhs. What the article has speculated is that the bike is expected to be priced below 10 lakhs, which would mean anything between 5-7 lakhs OTR.
A sensible price for a bike that does 0-60mph in 3.5 seconds and a speedo indicated 248kmph with oodles of midrange torque to ride as low as 60kmph in 6th gear.


For the one's saying the bike has "just an inline 4", let me remind you.
The 2011 CBR600F used a detuned 2007 CBR 600RR engine and made 100hp. This CBR 650F uses the same engine with a increased stroke of 3.5mm for the extra displacement and includes some changes in the valve train aswell to lower power output in order to meet European A2 license norms. This license requires a bike to be restricted to 47hp, and also requires that the limited bike should originally have power of not more than 2 times the limited power.
47*2=94hp.
Honda could not use the 100hp 2011 600F to meet this requirement and thus came in with this 87hp 650F to fill the shoes.


This is a Thai friend of mine who takes all the newly launched bikes to a local freeway to do Top speed runs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4xxq_mkH0k

[Silverflash]

Originally Posted by Nithesh_M

What the article has speculated is that the bike is expected to be priced below 10 lakhs, which would mean anything between 5-7 lakhs OTR.

Just re-read that sentence once, please.

If an article speculates that something might be priced below 10 lakh, then that's exactly what they're guessing - that the price can be anything under 10 lakh. The arbitrary assumption that "under 10 lakh" means "between 5-7 lakh" holds no water.

If I were a journalist (and I've been one), and I thought bike was going to be priced between 5-7 lakh, then that's what I would say in the article. For example: "We think that the bike will be priced between 5 and 7 lakh on the road."

Now I'm not arguing that the article is dead right. In fact, I'm hoping and praying that it is dead wrong, and that the final price does come in somewhere in the range of 5-6 lakh. If it does, great. But I'm not going to make an erroneous claim that this article points to that price.

Lastly, about the bike being only an inline-4 and nothing else. At the price point indicated, bunging an inline 4 on a bike and selling it for <=10 lakh while making it in India is not a good value proposition for me, no matter how capable that inline-4 is. Again, I'm basing that purely on what the article guesses about the price.

Nobody here is bashing Honda while claiming to be in the know of the real facts - we're speculating and joshing based on a news article, which is itself speculation. Let Honda release an official statement, and the bashing will either stop or continue based on real data.

Until then, no harm, no foul, IMHO.

[GKR9900]

For an average rider like myself,the CBR650F is way more than adequate with a power to weight ratio of almost 412 bhp per tonne.

But for an average sized pocket (again like myself) ,its speculated price of almost 10L is insane.I would love it if Honda would price it in 6-6.5L (on road) range.

Keeping all speculations and fascinations apart,its only safe to wait for an official statement from Honda before getting our hopes up.

[Ricci]

I agree it doesn't make sense for Honda to manufacture this bike here, the market is too small as of now. Unless they shift the entire production from Thailand and cater to SE Asian markets, maybe global market - but that's very unlikely.

Going the CKD way and assembling the 650F here makes sense, and necessary if they want to steal sales from Bajaj.

As for the general "not impressive" level of kit/tune, only discerning bikers will note that. Most bikers will not even know what it lacks - adjustable USD forks, 4 piston calipers, stiffer frame and a higher state of tune of course. To the general section, it's an SBK since it looks (full fairing) and sounds the part (inline 4 music). There may be some grumbling over the single headlamp though. 86hp is more than what most people will be able to use other than short bursts when the traffic allows.

While it's not as sexy as the supersport 600s, and lacks the same level of tune and kit, it's a competent enough machine for those who want a comfortable, everyday superbike and won't really be emulating Rossi and co. And it should be a very good tourer, a grown up Karizma for real. That's the segment of bikers who'll be most interested.

[Rachit.K.Dogra]

As a person following all the international launches and reviews and interested in buying this bike, here are my 2 cents:

I wouldnt decode Honda's statement of launching within 10 Lakhs meaning that it would launch for 10 lakhs or as previously expected around 7.5 Lakhs. I guess we will have to wait. But I definately feel this bike is not worth 10 Lakhs. Even around 7.5 Lakhs it needs major justification to do to be more than 2.5 Lakhs expensive than the Ninja 650. Ninja 650 still is the most sensible big bike in my opinion.

But here is why I would buy this one at 7.5 On Road.
1) An inline 4 engine brings good sound, smooth engine characteristice and this one is supposed to have decent mid range and will run on our regular fuel as well. Probably a lot of people will believe its a show of thing, but I have no regrets in accepting, as this bike needs to be special for me and make me feel nice about it, and a inline 4 noise, adds a lot to the experience.

2) From what I feel after reading all the reviews, this might handle its weight marginally better than 650. But this is something I feel as there are no decent direct comparisons yet.

3) I would want this to come as CKD so that no initial production issues are there as I want it as soon as it gets launched.

4) I wanted a sports tourer ergonomics with some decent handling and decent straight line performance to keep me hooked for a few years which this bike provides.

Regards
Rachit