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Old 23rd February 2017, 23:58   #16
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Well written and perfectly bulleted.

Also as narayan sir said, please don't buy a superbike just to impress opposite gender or for that people around you. Buy it if you want it and you can give it the love and respect it deserves.

And if i may..

The new range of 300-400 cc's from manufacturers like KTM (390 Twins), Bajaj (Dominar), BMW (G310r), Yamaha (R3), Kawasaki (N300), Benelli (Tnt 300) are kind of perfect for our indian roads for below reasons.

1. They can give you the occasional adrenaline rush you desire.
2. Perfectly suitable for Indian Roads and daily Commute.
3. You can still impress the opposite gender(If that is still on your mind)
4. Much easier and cheaper to Maintain.
5. Not too heavy on the pocket.
6. Will serve you well for those occasional highway/long rides, as all of them can easily cruise at 110-120, how much faster can you anyway go on the Indian roads.

Where in i have nothing against superbikes, and if you can afford and have the craving please go ahead and get one, though personally i would like the above segment to evolve much more.

Pity Honda decided against bringing the CBR 250rr to India.

Last edited by AtheK : 24th February 2017 at 00:07.
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Old 24th February 2017, 02:53   #17
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Amazing thread CD. You have managed to sum up everything that a first time superbike owner goes through during his pre and post ownership. Here are my views on your points :

1. Convincing family will not be easy. And not just for purchase, but for every single ride!
Convincing my family was not really a difficult task since they knew I always wanted to have a superbike (especially an inline 4). Family did have a say in the decision making process to consider long term ownership and maintenance costs and amount of riding. Ignored all of it and just went with my heart.

2. Taking the time out to ride. It could largely remain idle.*
Very true. In my case too, working schedule kept me busy during the week and weekends were the only times I could take the Z out. But not very often. In the last one year, I had barely ridden around 2000 kms. Paying an EMI + insurance + fuel + maintenance + other costs (tyres) would have amounted to around a lakh if I had retained the bike. Didn't make sense spending so much to ride just 2000 kms.

3. Friends and extended family will not like you the same again.*
Now for me it was the total opposite. People who did not know me started helloing me and speaking to me about the bike. Got to make some new friends too.

4. These bikes are not designed for India!
100% agree to this. While some of them are strong enough to tackle our bad roads - it's the road manners that don't suit these bikes. These bikes are meant to be ridden fast - but there is a huge risk since you do not know how the majority of the population is riding.

5. Not the best weapon for office commute.*
Depends actually the route you take. I used to take my Z to office twice a week until the Mumbai Metro work started. There would be heavy traffic and the bike would get heated up very badly. Couple that with crawling speeds and a heavy bike - it takes the fun away from riding. One of the reasons why I decided to sell the Z.

6. Public won't have respect for your property
You bet on it! I would never never leave my Z unattended anywhere without a cover. In office and home, I always used a cover. Any other place, I have never left it unattended - twice where I had gone to meet friends for morning breakfast and evening snacks - where I insisted on staying out with the bike. Was definitely a good decision since there were a lot of people crowded to see the bike. I am sure they would have sat and touched the bikes if no one was around.
I would also insist that people take care of their belts, keychains and anything else that would touch the tank or any part of the bike.

7. FUEL availability and quality would play on your mind. Always.
Yes, especially on long rides. Especially because some manufacturers insist on 95+ octane fuel which is not available everywhere.

8. Service and spares*WILL*be an issue.*
No matter what brand you ride, it's the same wind.....And the same issues with respect to parts and service. Manufacturers and Dealers of superbikes do not stock parts and only order them on demand. So Incase you have had an accident, it would be a long wait (maybe months) till the parts are imported.

12. Accidents and death become a part of life.*
Yes, mostly because it's a 2-wheeler. You don't have any kind of protection as compared to a car. And with the kind of speeds that many superbikers do 150+, no amount of safety gear can save you.

13. Hostility towards bikers.*
More hostility by cops towards superbikers. Anyone in a proper riding gear or a racing suit is very conveniently termed as a "racer" who is riding fast. Cops also harass superbikers if they do not have an ISO marked helmets. They want to promote safety but are not aware that DOT, ECE and SHARP are much better rated safety standards than ISI.

15. Accessories are insanely expensive.*
Insanely is hardly the word. When I started looking for accessories before I got delivery of my Z, I always thought why should I spend a bomb on accessories (riding gear, helmet, sliders etc). But slowly realised that these need to be factored before purchasing the bike. It's an expensive investment but really a life (and bike) saving one.

16. Slowly*graduate to a big bike. E.g. if you've ridden only a 100 - 150 cc so far, first get yourself a 250 - 400 cc and so on.*
A very important point. I upgraded to a Z800 from a P220/Enfield 350 and believe me I was not at all ready for this kind of power. Two things always came to my mind - 1. Power corrupts - and it's easy to get carried away with the 100+ bhp superbikes and taking them to their limits without any prior experience. And 2. With great power comes great responsibility - which is why I have always respected the bike and my limits. Although my limits were half of an average superbike rider-it still didn't matter to me.
Along with a slow upgrade, another alternative is to go through the California Superbike trainings to improve your riding skills.
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Old 24th February 2017, 03:15   #18
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Some motorcycles have a tag or sterotypes attached to it which is notorious to get rid of. Please don't kill me for what am saying, its just what I noticed people talking.
KTM is known to be very fast and rash
Bonneville does feel like a dhoodwala or a old bullet.
Young guy riding a hayabusa or any sports bike is a rich brat or ministers son automatically.
Touring bikes are predominately bought by the older boys or uncles in some peoples eye.

And adding to the other sex. Girls do not get drawn to you for your bike.

Buy a 600cc motorcycle, save the money as well. These bikes make as much power as the liter bikes. Ride safe, just take your bike for a 30 minute ride, which is good. Start with little distances, before progressing to all day rides. Driving in india is crazy sometimes, riding is just worse.

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Old 24th February 2017, 04:15   #19
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

It is amazing to see just how many of these points apply to desis owning bikes anywhere in the world. I guess what we learn back home in terms of the mentality stays in the head forever. Very often my wife is caught like a deer in headlights with questions such as "Does your husband not care about you? Isn't it suicidal to ride a bike, does he have life insurance" the list goes on and on.

Even in my mid 40s my desi friends assume I ride/commute on a bike to address some crisis in my life. In the last 18 years of riding in the US, I have given up on answering any bike related questions to desi boys who don't ride.
It is really hard to explain that I enjoy my daily commute to work, I enjoy gearing up, the time spent servicing the bike, the time spent shopping/installing parts, time spent watching DIY videos on youtube, or hanging out with people who ride.

Also, bikes are often up for sale with less than 10miles added to the odometer. People crash in the parking lot of the dealer.
Is it an universal male trait to go buy something stupid fast that they have not yet learnt to handle? Me thinks so!

Last edited by prasadee : 24th February 2017 at 04:31.
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Old 24th February 2017, 05:59   #20
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Very well written post, hats off to the community to add to it.

I had been through this scenario a couple of years ago when I graduated from an RX 135 to a RE TBTS 500. Can relate to each and every point made here.

I know it is not a superbike, but made perfect sense to me as a city bike + occasional long rides. However, in the 1.5 years I had it, it remained a city bike mostly. Was taken on long rides only twice. Sold it when I moved to Australia to a fellow enthusiast. The dream is still on, however many more higher priority stuff lying ahead. One day !!!

Hope that the 350-500 cc bike class grows in India giving more people the option to buy bigger/better bikes, which would let them do sane speeds within the given limitations, easier to graduate to from 150cc/200cc bikes and wouldn't really break the banks. Keep riding safe.
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Old 24th February 2017, 06:22   #21
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Just wanted to add a 16th point . Slowly graduate to a big bike. E.g. if you've ridden only a 100 - 150 cc so far, first get yourself a 250 - 400 cc and so on.

Liter bikes are as quick as Formula racers. The power on tap is extraordinary. First sharpen your skills, even if your wallet is ready .
Thanks GTO, and it's fantastic that you brought up this point. I sincerely wish I had not missed it in the opening post. Because, I have a pretty strong opinion on this topic. One that would partly oppose your view, while strongly accepting the ideology behind it.

And the idea is simple -
1. You keep a sane head.
2. Sharpen your skills
3. Slowly progress up the ladder in terms of speed, driving confidence etc.

Why I partially oppose your view?

Anyone who has decided to slowly climb the ladder already has a sane head. So that's one point covered. Infact the main one! Given a 600 or some of the saner 1000s, he would still take it slow till he builds his confidence levels and might not end up making a fool of himself. I wouldn't advice the 1000s though, as it is quite a different league in itself, but the 400 -750 category makes a lot of sense.

So why skip the 250 - 300cc segments?

1. Hate the fact that these motorcycles don't come with ABS, with the exception of only a few like the KTM 390 twins, Bajaj Dominar etc. The others like FZ250, Yamaha R3, Ninja 300, Z250, Benelli TNT 300, Mahindra Mojo, Enfield range etc don't come with this one basic feature that COULD be the one choice between life and death when it matters the most.

Not that these motorcycles are not powerful enough not to require ABS. I'll never swallow that argument anyone gives.

2. It is easy to outgrow these motorcycles rather easily. Not that these are any less capable machines on their own right, but those who have their eyes on the big prize will hardly be content with their 250cc machines. The itch for an upgrade starts just within a few months of the purchase of the brand new quarter litre motorcycles.

However, I will be forced to contradict my own words if someone points out the KTM 390 twins! These bikes have extremely high power to weight ratios that means they can keep up with a class of 600s, even if it means riding behind the group. Bring the price into the equation as well, and they make excellent motorcycles to retain for the longer term till one is ready for the big upgrade. If not, I would strongly suggest these buyers to look at a 600 with ABS instead, if the budget permits. Could be a keeper for life!

Why I partially, but whole-heartedly accept your view?

The earlier point started off with the assumption that the buyer has a sane head to follow the other points religiously. And I do feel this mostly happens when the motorcycle is earned (not just money!) rather than gifted.

For example -

Originally Posted by V.Narayan View Post
Crazy Driver, a mature sensible piece of writing. Kudos to you. I speak from the other side of the wall. My son & nephew want fancy bikes. Old man me says no way. The risks are too enormous for a short adrenalin high.
I do agree with your sir. From your words, it does seem they have not yet grown to the maturity levels yet. When purchasing for anyone, but self, I would strongly agree with the point GTO suggested. Let them slowly mature up the ladder, get used to and master the various class incremently before the earn (with their maturity levels, if not money) the right to upgrade to a bigger class of motorcycles.

Originally Posted by gkveda View Post
Check your passion on Big bikes and real need for the Big Bike through the following tests
NEED = Zero.
Desire =

Frankly, I don't think anyone can explain any real NEED to own a motorcycle in India with cubic capacity greater than 400 - 500cc.

Originally Posted by gkveda View Post
If you have not traveled so many times, chances are that, even in big bikes, you won't travel either.

A quick search in the classifieds section will show that this point is totally overlooked. Many people don't get to do justice to their bikes during the ownership period.

Also, as I mentioned - I believe the choice of wheels matter as well. A supersport like the Daytona looks and feels brilliant, but how many can live and ride with such commitment over the longer term is a real question mark. Whereas someone having a more comfort oriented choice like the Tiger 800 might be able to do better justice to the vehicle in comparison.

Yes, there are people who use their supersports in proper fashion as well, but as of now - I feel they are more of an exception rather than the rule.

Originally Posted by Amit_breakfree View Post
Beautifully written and extremely practical in almost all of the given scenarios. I can relate to it even more because I am looking to graduate from my HH CBZ Xtreme to most probably a Yamaha R3 maybe this year or the next.
Thank you for the kind words. Please also have a look at my earlier post regarding the 300cc bikes, which might be relevant in your case. You might not agree either, but would still make for a meaningful discussion.

Originally Posted by Amit_breakfree View Post
One more important point could be the Bad Road Manners in our Country.

I myself had two falls during my college days. Once it was when a government car took a sharp cut across my path forcing me to brake in the slush, and the latter when a construction site had carelessly spilled sand all over the road. ABS could have prevented both falls, whereas a proper riding gear could have prevented my injuries in the second fall (Helmet was there and totally protected my head though!)

Adding to your points, what we can also do is to be prepared. I was pretty sure ABS was one criteria that wouldn't be given a miss for whatever reasons, and had also decided to atleast invest 10% of the vehicle cost on safety for self protection as well.

Might not be enough for the madness on our roads, but atleast I wouldn't need to repent about not learning from previous mistakes either.

Originally Posted by Paleo View Post
Very well written and so true on all the points.

I've been dreaming over the past few months and reading up, even leaving my work aside. I'm sure I didnt miss a single news item on todays Duke launch and was watching live as well

The good bit is there are so many good options you have today across so many ranges.

The head's slowly starting to take over the heart and especially after reading your piece, I think its gonna remain a dream
Thank you for the kind words. I wouldn't take that decision if I were you though - as I do chase my dreams and chase them hard. A more sane person wouldn't have invested in a bigger bike or a car, if they were in my position.

I personally do feel that the Duke 390 is an excellent choice to test the waters. It doesn't hurt your pocket and is an extremely competent choice as well. KTM service coverage and ABS seals the deal. I only forsee the upcoming BMW GS 310 adventure and the KTM 390 adventure as being better choices than the current KTM 390 twins on sale in India, in that they are much friendlier towards Indian conditions.

You're not getting any younger, mate. Chase that dream, but with a sane head and proper plan on how to overcome and learn from all the points noted by myself and others above.

Last edited by GTO : 24th February 2017 at 10:25. Reason: Merging back to back posts
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Old 24th February 2017, 10:14   #22
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

The only way to enjoy biking is to move up gradually. My bikes have been a KB 125,to a Unicorn to the present - a CBR 250(non-ABS). The reason for going in for the non-ABS was the years of riding experience acquired on the smaller machines. Now, even though Im considering my next upgrade - a 650 - all of the reasons listed are playing on my mind. Initial purchase cost is one thing - Im sure all of us can find a way around that - but the running costs will definitely need to be factored in. Case in point - My 250 needs a rear tyre replacement now, with about 9k on the clock. That will set me back anything between 2 to 5k, depending on whether I go for Continental or Michelin ( Just talking of costs here, nothing else). The same for a 650, would set me back by about 12.5 - 18.

Im going to make the upgrade, no doubt, but I really want the timing to be right. So as of now, its wait and watch for me.
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Old 24th February 2017, 10:27   #23
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Amazing Write up.
Just passed through the phase of buying a Ninja 650 (pre-owned) and i can totally connect with the points shared.

Within two weeks of ownership i already feel the pinch.
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Old 24th February 2017, 10:44   #24
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

A good time to start a thread on big bikes and the present times. I cant recall the number of times I have heard stories of blokes with more cash and less grey matter buying big bikes and fatally crashing them all over the place. Only a matter of time before one of the bloke in that video meets his master.
It is the need of the hour to get the sports biking scene in this country organized both through law and awareness.
Most of the people I see getting these big bikes have no idea what a death machine they are getting. Growing up with 100 cc commuters just does not prepare you for the kind of machine these big bikes are.
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Old 24th February 2017, 10:46   #25
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Excellent thread CrazyDriver.

I started on a small bike (the Suzuki SV 650 is considered a small bike in the US). Wanted to jump on a big bike so got the GSXR 750. But then came back to a small bike (Buell Firebolt - Harley engine, sportsbike chassis - only 90hp).
I started tracking my bikes very early and I also did some amateur level racing. The fun I had on the track with the SV and the Buell, I didn't have with the GSXR. But the GSXR was waaaay more fun in a straight line and also easier for the roads where you are mostly going straight, and mostly at speed of around 70-80mph (120-140kph).

Here are a couple of pics of me on the track with the Buell:

One thing I wanted to add is spend as much as you can on good gear if you are getting a big bike. They pay back their cost when (not if) you crash.
I regret not spending enough on gear (got cheap leather gloves with inadequate knuckle and finger armor) and this happened (in a race - on the track - I was very tame and defensive on the streets).

Also ride defensive - as if you are invisible to other. Never assume other road users can see you.

Last edited by nd4$pd : 24th February 2017 at 10:54.
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Old 24th February 2017, 11:07   #26
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Just wanted to add a 16th point . Slowly graduate to a big bike. E.g. if you've ridden only a 100 - 150 cc so far, first get yourself a 250 - 400 cc and so on.

Liter bikes are as quick as Formula racers. The power on tap is extraordinary. First sharpen your skills, even if your wallet is ready .
My advice too and I would clearly say that it is the 1st & foremost one.

Bigger bikes need a specific set of skills unlike the everyday commuters we see. Many are not the straight drag race champs that people or the aspiring buyers see them. The real fun a powerful bike gives is in the stability along a straight line at high speeds, corner / bends and during braking.

One can (that would also mean myself as well) need to unlearn the few things we inculcate in smaller bikes. Like the famous words (or is it the dialogue) - "Great power comes with great responsibility", is true at least in bikes. Riding position (as per the bike type), tyres in condition, well maintained condition, good throttle control, brakes in condition, etc. are some very essential and basic things need to be followed for these bikes (my Duke 390 lessons). First learn to stand, then walk, run and finally fly. Taking riding classes from pros / schools is the best option (KTM owners get that during the Track Days, sorry not endorsing or advertising the brand). These help you understand the bike better and know how hard you can push it or how much you can take it.

Investing in good riding gears (armored / shielded, not the everyday pull over kinds) and helmets (DOT / ECE certified ones are much safer than ISI). Need to have a keen observation skill (remember the faster you go the narrower the field of view becomes) to look at eventual scenarios / possibilities ahead (e.g. truck / car abrupt lane change without any signal, pedestrians running across, stray animals, etc.) is vital.

Developed countries have licensing graduation systems (you basically start with 50cc, move to 125cc and then bigger capacities), restrictions on bike riding timings (some places avoid bikes during night times), carrying people (even 2 is not allowed in some states of USA). India is one place where you get even an hayabusa as a first bike, parents take pride in letting you watch their kids (less than even 16) storm around on scootys without even a helmet, breaking traffic laws is a birth right, you get away with no papers at all (el chapo Mexico is similar in this ..), ambulance has to do a circus to cross the next signal. With all of this going on, it is indeed a challenge to ride your bikes, but it drains all your energy.

Have a safe riding and happier miles ahead!
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Old 24th February 2017, 12:24   #27
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Good article. Sharing few of my experiences after getting back to bigger bikes in the recent year.

One has to be clear as to what kind of riding one wants to do, this is the most key element in riding and choosing the bike / retaining it for long. I made the mistake when i first picked the Street Triple, though it was a hoot in city and office commute; when i experienced the long highway haul on a Tiger, i realized that the cons of Tiger were much lesser compared to the Street and it worked perfectly for my office commute also. Now am clear an adventure tourer is the best bike for my kind of riding, which includes my daily ride to work and occasional long rides out of town.

The riding group matters and is the most important factor (esp if you are not one of those riding solo type of souls), irrespective of the bike. The group i ride own a varied spectrum of bikes from Tigers to Bullet to KTM's to larger SBK. The riding is planned in a way that we all keep up with each other and ensure we regroup every hour or so, no matter what. We were friends first and then became riding partners, so that helped.

Parking was a big dilemma when i bought the bike, but i soon realized that the more i try to store it safe and cover it, more attention it gets. Now i just park it as a normal bike but ensure the parking is on stable ground. Fortunately no one has ever fiddled with the bikes, max they would check the switches or shift the rear view mirror. Even the kids in the apartment admire it from a distance, approach me with questions which i try to clarify and they have never fiddled with the bike coz there is no mystery to it anymore... Touch wood so far so good.

Riding style - like they say there are no old, bold riders. Once you ride long enough you learn from the experience and become more grounded in your riding style. Be it India or abroad, there is lot that you can be responsible for in your riding.

If it is thrill of speed that you want to ride stick to tracks, if it is riding and freedom then ride on the roads. And the glamour of riding is to achieve your own satisfaction, and not for seeking satisfaction from others, if it is latter you choose a very wrong passion for yourself.
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Old 24th February 2017, 13:00   #28
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Hahaha, this post was such a fun read. I totally support and resonate with your point of view. Felt nostalgic and a gush of memories filled me. I bought a Yamaha V Star Classic 650 cc in Dubai and lovingly named it Trinity after the three pronged emblem of Yamaha. I had some fun time with it and on numerous occasions went all the way to Abu Dhabi, Musandam, Jebel Hafeet and Al Ain. I absolutely loved the attention and made some good friends because of the crotch rocked I owned. Had her for little over 18 months and bought a car. Few reasons that made me move on to a car –
• Being my one and only ride, I used to go everywhere on it. Dubai’s all around the year heat used to be unbearable. I used to literally melt around cars in slow moving traffic.
• I used to feel like a puny nobody amongst those monstrous Land Cruisers and Tahoes. Getting hit by a rowdy local or an ignorant expat was always on the back of my mind.
• Going to supermarket was a real chore. One needs to really plan and buy groceries based on priority and what could be carried back easily to home.
• Keeping it clean after an unwarranted bout of rain was a royal pain in the A… One would find sand in all the nooks and crannies.
• One morning I walked into the parking lot to find my bike neatly laid on the ground. I reported this issue to the security and they informed me that some drunk Russians sat on my bike the night before and was clicking pictures. Even though the security noticed them but they didn’t realise that they are not the real owners. Those clowns couldn’t engage the side stand and neatly laid it to rest and managed to bend the side stand. I felt very distraught and swore to catch them.
• Then one day, thanks to the bike a lovely girl walked into my life. Initially it was all rosy for her, sitting behind me and going for pleasure rides; but it didn’t last for long. She touched the hot exhaust pipe with her shoes and the rubber left a residue. I had to spend a good part of a day cleaning those ghastly marks. Ahhh!!!
• GF started complaining that she can’t wear short skirts and frocks. Her hair and makeup will go for a toss after wearing helmet and she always arrived unkept.
• Then it was either GF + Taxis or GF + own car. I chose the latter and said goodbye to Trinity.
• The person who was most upset after I sold my bike was my mother, she really loved the idea of me owning an amazing bike and becoming a chick magnet.
Attached Thumbnails
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Old 24th February 2017, 14:37   #29
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Wonderful piece of article Crazy Driver . I have always wanted to own a big bike , but it has still remained a dream . Well , you just cannot justify or come up with a reason to own a superbike , because its more of a passion , and mostly decisions are taken from heart , not brain to own one . I would suggest to rent bikes from concerns like Wicked Ride (based in Bangalore) , try those bikes and see whether they suit you . One more advantage of doing so : the beast will not lie idle at your garage ., and you can ride one whenever you wish at your own sweet time . This way cost of maintenance is completely eliminated . This is what I always do , it works for me .

Coming to people's lack of respect : This is so true in our country . I find a hard time keeping my car and bike scratch free from the kids , and it boils my blood to see their parents watching the fun . Every now and then I see the mirror bent , or someone has set the bike on gear .
One more thing to add , people in our country (especially bikers) have a tendency to put a scratch mark on a new car or bike . I see that happening in Bangalore all the time , someone has parked his new vehicle , all of a sudden some idiot puts a dent or a scratch mark on it just for fun . They get sheer pleasure out of it . Imagine the same on a 20 lakhs bike .
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Old 24th February 2017, 16:53   #30
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Re: 15 things to consider before buying a big motorcycle

Great thread C_D

IMHO, Either you are a biker OR you are not. It's as simple as that..

This is an ingrained passion which is cultivated from early childhood for majority of motorcycle enthusiasts and have ridden and enjoyed it to some extent at that point and during the same time they also have yearned for motorcycles which are bigger or better than what they then owned. Hence, these type of bikers can handle bigger bikes with much ease compared to the folks who "suddenly" become bikers

In this age, when disposable incomes are at it's peak-many are under pressure to feel cool or an urge to taste a different type of adventure are buying these big bikes at the drop of their hats without assessing if they have the wherewithal or passion to utilize it to it's full potential. Most of these new age breed motorcyclists are the mid/late thirties onwards age-group ( Popular term used here is "Midlife Crisis") and usually are unable to sustain this passion for more than a few months/years and give it up realizing that motorcycling is a lot of hard work and is not as easy or cool as it seemed in the beginning

Bottom-line, get yourself a big bike ONLY if you truly enjoy motorcycling and have nerves of steel (Yes, it does take that) NOT because of any other inane reasons

Last edited by mobike008 : 24th February 2017 at 16:54.
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