[ringoism]

Originally Posted by proton

Apparently, takers exist for it.

Someone expressed a desire on the Versys 300 for a bike that takes them from Delhi to Leh without involving a train or truck. There was no existing, VFM solution. Now there is.

Seriously? Anyone who thinks they need a train or truck to do Manali-Leh on less than 1000cc is in a dreamworld, really grasping at straws - it is just ludicrous. Group I rode to Leh with last year did it on 350/410/500cc RE's, just as thousands upon thousands have been doing every riding season for years now, and continue to, even with highway speeds increasing out there. You only have to be able to do a steady 80-90kmph on the Delhi-Chandigarh highway to ride safely with the average flow of traffic, and once you're in the hills, there's no advantage whatsoever to a liter-class bike over a 300 or even smaller. In many cases you're at a distinct disadvantage in fact.

Let's see the sales numbers before we conclude whether it's primarily an image-booster for Honda India (and for a handful of affluent or heavily indebted buyers), or whether it's something both will actually profit from in the real world. I'm going to bet that most months your enlightened, VFM-proclaiming "takers" are going to be numbered in the single digits... or a couple dozen at absolute best.

And try loading/transporting this thing safely in a truck when it breaks, say, something simple like a couple of wheel spokes or a brake line or gear lever (or as David below, an indispensible footpeg) out in Nubra and you've gotta haul it all the way back to Delhi where it will sit and wait long months for lack of spares...

Nice bike, but c'mon people...

I'll rest my case here.

-Eric

[Red Liner]

A big cycle is nothing but flamboyance in india. If and when i move to the hills, a little duke 390 or even the xpulse from hero will do very well indeed. Light, lots of torque, and absolute reliability. Honda crf 250l anyone?

[Bhatman510]

^CRF 250L has not been in India's radar...in the US its a typical dual sport bike (or the Rally if you like the look) Most guys dual sporting in the US are either on the KTM450 or DR400-Z or DR650.

The Africa twin in many US and EU reviews have indicated the bike is in its own level (when compared to the massive GSA1200, Tenere, 1190R). Quite a few people have picked up the bike and once on proper Dual Sport tires and a few extras (better guard protection) its quite the performer. Im waiting for the Adventure Sports to come out and that should force the dealers in the Bay Area to drop prices.

[proton]

Originally Posted by ringoism

Seriously? Anyone who thinks they need a train or truck to do Manali-Leh on less than 1000cc is in a dreamworld, really grasping at straws - it is just ludicrous.
-Eric

Someone bought a Ducati Multistrada 950 and used it to buy vegetables. Must be great weaving in and out of the vegetable market bylanes! Nice photos on that thread. Go figure!

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by proton

Those who have tested the Africa Twin feel it a worthy upgrade from the Versys 650, worth considering because it is more powerful, whilst the Versys is boring, and feels LIGHTER than the Versys. Apparently, takers exist for it.

Have you ever ridden a Versys 650 to call it boring which incidentally is a first for me? Or, is your comments based on "Apparently someone mentioned cue as most of your points seem to be based on"?

Originally Posted by proton

Someone expressed a desire on the Versys 300 for a bike that takes them from Delhi to Leh without involving a train or truck. There was no existing, VFM solution. Now there is. For those in the market.

Yet again a third party comment. "Someone expressed a desire". Do you have any of your own personal experiences to share with us?

Why do you need a Versys 300 to ride from one corner to another corner of our country? It can be done on ANY motorcycle

Originally Posted by ringoism

Seriously? Anyone who thinks they need a train or truck to do Manali-Leh on less than 1000cc is in a dreamworld, really grasping at straws - it is just ludicrous. Group I rode to Leh with last year did it on 350/410/500cc RE's, just as thousands upon thousands have been doing every riding season for years now, and continue to, even with highway speeds increasing out there. You only have to be able to do a steady 80-90kmph on the Delhi-Chandigarh highway to ride safely with the average flow of traffic

I completely agree with you on this point. You dont need a powerful bike to do the ghats/mountains as it would be a completely under-utilized

I have recently done the world famous "Mae Hon Song Loop" in Thailand which has 1864 curves in 1000kms and rode a Suzuki VStrom 650cc

And, I realized that it was a good decision to get the VStrom 650 ONLY because I had a pillion. If I was riding alone, it would have been an overkill to get a 650cc as 80% of those roads had tight loops.

I saw people riding much powerful machines like Multistrada and BMW GS1200 and I'm sure they would not even use 25% of it's power on those road conditions

Best bikes in that condition would be 500CC (Enjoyed riding a Honda CBX500 on those loops). And, reason for citing above is because Leh/Ladhak situation would be exactly similar. You dont need a Versys or Multistrada to enjoy those mountain roads. Reasonable power of 350cc or 500cc with good torque is more than enough to conquer those destinations

IMHO, Upgrades needs are just human psychology and three important parameters that make people do upgrades are :

When someone gets bored of riding the same motorcycle
When someone has enough money to buy whatever he needs
Peer pressure

Originally Posted by proton

Someone bought a Ducati Multistrada 950 and used it to buy vegetables. Must be great weaving in and out of the vegetable market bylanes! Nice photos on that thread. Go figger!

What does this supposed to mean?

If Wanderlust posted a picture of him buying vegetables on his Ducati means he does that on a regular basis?

I can also post a picture of a pizza box in my top-case of the Versys. Will that make you believe that I do pizza delivery on my Versys?

I didn't think it was so hard to distinguish between a fun picture and reality?

[ashroy_6]

Hi,

Done both spiti valley and leh from Hyderabad in my suv last year and in 2015. Trust me from a car perspective any car can do it with a decent ground clearance. The only challenge comes while crossing passes (zozila, kardungla etc etc) Rest all roads are fine.

My jaw dropped at zozilla pass when a Merceedez E class overtook me. People are crazy enough to do Delhi Leh in Mercedez E class also...HAHAHA.

During Spiti drive, I saw a lot of maruti 800 and even few Nanos.

The only difference is that in these routes if you have an SUV the ride is more comfortable and you have a peace of mind because of high ground clearance and 4 wheel drive.

The point is we tend to over glorify these routes. As of today 95% of Leh and Spiti roads are easily manageable in any car or bike. Yeah in 80's and 90's these routes were really challenging but not now.

Now from a bikers perceptive, I would agree with Avinash, anything above 500 cc is an overkill. As such one can't ride above 40-60 km/hr in these ghats roads. All that is required is good low end torque.

If one is planning to ride all the way from south India, west India or east India then little power is required as one will have to cover nearly 1500+ kms to reach Delhi itself. But then again in our best of our highways an average bike speed of 100-120 is more than enough. Anything more and you are risking it in a big way plus riders fatigue.

From Delhi if a rider is planning to leh, 500 cc is good enough.

These high powered bikes are good no doubt, but not necessary for taking such trips.

[proton]

Originally Posted by mobike008

I didn't think it was so hard to distinguish between a fun picture and reality?

Quote
Thanks mobike008, it was your V650 thread that I was following closely and realized that I need to acquire a bike that I am not going to upgrade from, so here is the smashing red Ducati.


After reading your Versys 650 review, the Multistrada owner decided not to go for it!

'Nuff said?

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by proton

Quote
Thanks mobike008, it was your V650 thread that I was following closely and realized that I need to acquire a bike that I am not going to upgrade from, so here is the smashing red Ducati.
[/i]

So he had the money to buy an expensive bike right off the bat. Not many people have that kind of budget

Originally Posted by proton

After reading your Versys 650 review, the Multistrada owner decided not to go for it!

So what does it prove? Versys is a bad bike?

Originally Posted by proton

'Nuff said?

Nope. Enough is NOT said. What happened to the queries I asked? Please respond to them.

[Red Liner]

Proton, you sound like a very inexperienced lawyer quoting stuff from all over the place. Why dont you put forward your own experiences out here. Trust me, once you have ridden all these different classes of bikes in different terrains, you will realize that smaller and lighter is always better when touring the mountains.

There is no denying that it's human tendency to scratch the itch of an inline 4 or a big fat adv tourer with panniers. But calling them necessities is ridiculous.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by mobike008

I completely agree with you on this point. You dont need a powerful bike to do the ghats/mountains as it would be a completely under-utilized

ehm ehm care to explain.. for me lighter Street 675 on hills was under utilized, whereas the Tiger 800 am quite a champ and can push a lot better. But jokes apart, it depends on perspective, one get used to power and weight very easily and then you are one with the bike. The potential etc is a bunch of bull crap, am sure 95% of the riding folks have taken their bikes to 60-70% of its capabilities, and i belong in that 95%. In short rider skills are much lesser compared to the capability of even a primitive enfield. Big bikes big low end torque is a different ball game and something you experience and then tame.

And, I realized that it was a good decision to get the VStrom 650 ONLY because I had a pillion. If I was riding alone, it would have been an overkill to get a 650cc as 80% of those roads had tight loops.

How does tight loop have anything to do with CC of the bike? Or you are saying it would need more skills to carry a more powerful and heavier bike?

If Wanderlust posted a picture of him buying vegetables on his Ducati means he does that on a regular basis?

Not on a multistrada, though i do it on a Tiger 800. Again whey are we debating on such silly stuff? And how is it relevant to this topic.

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

The point is we tend to over glorify these routes. As of today 95% of Leh and Spiti roads are easily manageable in any car or bike. Yeah in 80's and 90's these routes were really challenging but not now.

Now from a bikers perceptive, I would agree with Avinash, anything above 500 cc is an overkill. As such one can't ride above 40-60 km/hr in these ghats roads. All that is required is good low end torque.

I beg to differ my friend, recently a close bunch of friends did Leh and Spiti with a mix of bikes. Guys who were on bigger bikes covered distance much faster and were much fresher at the end of the day. And that is why these adventure bikes sell worldwide. What we believe may not be always right, one needs to experience it.

I have done Leh on a himalayan and only regret that i had at that time was i chickened to ship my bike over and went with rental. But if there is a next time, it would be on the Tiger!

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Trust me, once you have ridden all these different classes of bikes in different terrains, you will realize that smaller and lighter is always better when touring the mountains.

Beg to differ, unless you mean extreme off road.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I as a biker with marginal experience riding various bike see that there is a serious bias here from the Versys owners. Versys is a great bike, but please don't run down anything smaller bigger or named different as useless. Unless you own them for substantial time, or atleast ridden them for 1000's of kms on varying conditions and terrain. Atleast a normal person takes so much time to figure a bike out.

Peace!

[proton]

Originally Posted by mobike008

So he had the money to buy an expensive bike right off the bat. Not many people have that kind of budget.

Yes, proving that the CRF1000 isn't overkill. If you have the budget, you can get the right bike.

So what does it prove? Versys is a bad bike?

It's what you buy if you want to compromise.

Nope. Enough is NOT said. What happened to the queries I asked? Please respond to them.

I could and it would take time as I trace all the quotes, but this isn't a matter of life and death, so is it necessary? The main point was whether the CRF1000 is overkill. Honda makes bikes for sofa comfortable touring, like the Goldwing, that can munch miles effortlessly, making transcontinental trips a dream. Then it makes Spiderman like bikes, like the CRF450 Dakar, that can climb 45 degree slopes with ease, making transalpine hops a joy. The AfricaTwin is a hybrid, doing both sufficiently well, cheaper than a GS, which is getting hammered this year for the throne. But it is STILL a compromise. The GS has shaft drive. So leave your chain spray behind, and avoid stopping every 500 clicks to do your maintenance. You get what you pay for.

[ashroy_6]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I beg to differ my friend, recently a close bunch of friends did Leh and Spiti with a mix of bikes. Guys who were on bigger bikes covered distance much faster and were much fresher at the end of the day. And that is why these adventure bikes sell worldwide. What we believe may not be always right, one needs to experience it.

I have done Leh on a himalayan and only regret that i had at that time was i chickened to ship my bike over and went with rental. But if there is a next time, it would be on the Tiger!

Peace!

Sir, Kindly read my post carefully, I have clearly stated that in an Suv the journey would be more comfortable with more peace of mind compared with a regular sedan. Same applies for a bike too.

At the end of the day its more of a want than a need and nothing wrong in that.

A good 500-650 bike would be able to do everything a 1000-1200cc bike can do in this context.

[mobike008]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

ehm ehm care to explain.. for me lighter Street 675 on hills was under utilized, whereas the Tiger 800 am quite a champ and can push a lot better. But jokes apart, it depends on perspective, one get used to power and weight very easily and then you are one with the bike. The potential etc is a bunch of bull crap, am sure 95% of the riding folks have taken their bikes to 60-70% of its capabilities, and i belong in that 95%. In short rider skills are much lesser compared to the capability of even a primitive enfield. Big bikes big low end torque is a different ball game and something you experience and then tame.

I am just saying that you don't need a powerful bike to conquer the bad roads or hills. It is a classic case of just what you want than what you need

For touring, I agree you will enjoy the ride better on a powerful machine

Originally Posted by Jaggu

How does tight loop have anything to do with CC of the bike? Or you are saying it would need more skills to carry a more powerful and heavier bike?

Tight loop has everything to do with CC of a bike. After my ride in Thailand, plenty of people approached me for advice and I told each one of them not to get a powerful machine. Maximum stick to a 650cc because you need to take corners literally every 600-700 meters (1864 curves in ~1000kms. Do the math) and by the time you accelerate to 60kmph-80kmph and a corner looms ahead of you making you to downshift/deaccelarate to take the corner.

Infact, in such conditions managing a powerful bike is more difficult. One has to keep a tab on the right hand and secondly, managing all that power in corners is not too easy apart from the weight of the bike. It really gets tiring to continue to play around with the power and upshift/dowshift. With a lesser powerful bike, it would be a more relaxing ride in those conditions

Now tell me do you still need a 1 liter bike in these conditions?

Originally Posted by Jaggu

Not on a multistrada, though i do it on a Tiger 800. Again whey are we debating on such silly stuff? And how is it relevant to this topic

We are debating because Proton mentioned "Ducati can be used to buy vegetables and asked us to "Go Figger". That is why

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I beg to differ my friend, recently a close bunch of friends did Leh and Spiti with a mix of bikes. Guys who were on bigger bikes covered distance much faster and were much fresher at the end of the day. And that is why these adventure bikes sell worldwide. What we believe may not be always right, one needs to experience it.

Riding on highways and doing Leh/Spiti/Ladhak is different. I would be more comfortable doing it on a lighter bike than a heavier bike. Period

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by Jaggu

I as a biker with marginal experience riding various bike see that there is a serious bias here from the Versys owners. Versys is a great bike, but please don't run down anything smaller bigger or named different as useless. Unless you own them for substantial time, or atleast ridden them for 1000's of kms on varying conditions and terrain. Atleast a normal person takes so much time to figure a bike out.

Now you are going offtopic. Who said anything about Versys? Infact, I mentioned to Proton why do you need a Versys 300 to cover breadth/width of our country? I am yet to get an answer from him for that query. Bais is clearly from the members from one location who seem to descend all together at once

Originally Posted by proton

Yes, proving that the CRF1000 isn't overkill. If you have the budget, you can get the right bike

According to you CRF1000 is the right bike? I can ask you to elaborate on this point but, I won't since your response will be completely unrelated

Originally Posted by proton

It's what you buy if you want to compromise

By that rationale, CRF1000 is a compromise for a GS1200 as CRF1000 buyer had 7 lakhs less to buy a better bike

Originally Posted by proton

I could and it would take time as I trace all the quotes, but this isn't a matter of life and death, so is it necessary? The main point was whether the CRF1000 is overkill. Honda makes bikes for sofa comfortable touring, like the Goldwing, that can munch miles effortlessly, making transcontinental trips a dream. Then it makes Spiderman like bikes, like the CRF450 Dakar, that can climb 45 degree slopes with ease, making transalpine hops a joy. The AfricaTwin is a hybrid, doing both sufficiently well, cheaper than a GS, which is getting hammered this year for the throne. But it is STILL a compromise. The GS has shaft drive. So leave your chain spray behind, and avoid stopping every 500 clicks to do your maintenance. You get what you pay for.

You have not answered a single query of mine and writing all of above which is totally unrelated. I will stop engaging with you here as it's like addressing a brick wall.

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Proton, you sound like a very inexperienced lawyer quoting stuff from all over the place. Why dont you put forward your own experiences out here. Trust me, once you have ridden all these different classes of bikes in different terrains, you will realize that smaller and lighter is always better when touring the mountains.

+ 1000

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by ashroy_6

Sir, Kindly read my post carefully, I have clearly stated that in an Suv the journey would be more comfortable with more peace of mind compared with a regular sedan. Same applies for a bike too.

At the end of the day its more of a want than a need and nothing wrong in that.

A good 500-650 bike would be able to do everything a 1000-1200cc bike can do in this context.

First of all no sirs please

Second point being, I agree its all about comfort. While a 100 or 650 CAN do the same thing, like you said the comfort factor is the differentiator. My reference is a rented himalyan which huffed and puffed at the high altitude hair pins where a large bike would have just taken me in much more comfort. Again a sedan may not be able to do the off beaten spiti trip with ease, what my friends did.

By the way, I had a foreigner on GS for company on two days and he used to just disappear into horizon while I struggled to do basic distance. Guy from UK who was on tour of India, the 6 foot 5" frame still fresh in my memory from last year.

Originally Posted by mobike008

I am just saying that you don't need a powerful bike to conquer the bad roads or hills. It is a classic case of just what you want than what you need

Ofcourse one can also walk up, like we do in offroad Reece's, but that is not my perspective. For me power is more like an insurance, more than paying toll, what "my perspective" of what you are stating. If you gather what I mean.

For touring, I agree you will enjoy the ride better on a powerful machine

Whole Enfield community may not agree with you and me though.

Tight loop has everything to do with CC of a bike. After my ride in Thailand, plenty of people approached me for advice and I told each one of them not to get a powerful machine. Maximum stick to a 650cc because you need to take corners literally every 600-700 meters (1864 curves in ~1000kms. Do the math) and by the time you accelerate to 60kmph-80kmph and a corner looms ahead of you making you to downshift/deaccelarate to take the corner.

It is all about skill of course. With my limited skills, I wouldn't give that advice being a rider, the joy of attacking a corner without revving to limits and having that extra oomph if you need it, is a HUGE difference to some.

Many folks still do the Nandi Hills climb on big and powerful bikes (much tighter and shorter ride), why? Answer is obvious and simple. That is the thrill of motorcycling, to many.

Infact, in such conditions managing a powerful bike is more difficult. One has to keep a tab on the right hand and secondly, managing all that power in corners is not too easy apart from the weight of the bike. It really gets tiring to continue to play around with the power and upshift/dowshift. With a lesser powerful bike, it would be a more relaxing ride in those conditions

It is all about skills my friend, I have seen a gentleman named Anand on MMST track, where he was smoking all the super bike friends in his BMW GS. That to me is ultimate skill. This is way back in beginning of 20XX. And though I was always scared of big bikes and task of handling all the power, after 3 years of living with them I don't hesitate hopping on the largest of the bikes. It was just my mental block that was stopping me.

Now tell me do you still need a 1 liter bike in these conditions?

Ofcourse you don't need, but I need. And that is the point, just coz you feel it is not required doesn't mean that is the absolute be it and end it.

We are debating because Proton mentioned "Ducati can be used to buy vegetables and asked us to "Go Figger". That is why

Please refer him to the grammar thread.

Riding on highways and doing Leh/Spiti/Ladhak is different. I would be more comfortable doing it on a lighter bike than a heavier bike. Period

More than you being right, I would say it is just personal preference. After being used to larger bikes I get that mental feel that am better off with larger bikes. Mind you I have ridden in Leh and though I went in with the small is better perspective, I came back with a different opinion for myself.

Now you are going offtopic. Who said anything about Versys? Infact, I mentioned to Proton why do you need a Versys 300 to cover breadth/width of our country? I am yet to get an answer from him for that query. Bais is clearly from the members from one location who seem to descend all together at once

Sorry you are mistaken I took notice because of an entirely different reason, and if you noticed you know why also. To cover breadth and width you need just two legs, to do it over a short weekend you need more powerful equipment, and as long as you know how to use it wisely, you will live to tell. On the same note a TVS 50 is more than enough to kill oneself in our country, but that doesn't stop anyone from going on silly highway blasts every other weekend. So chill!

According to you CRF1000 is the right bike? I can ask you to elaborate on this point but, I won't since your response will be completely unrelated

Sorry for butting in but... I was a big fan and there was even huge discussions in our Tiger groups where people took test rides. I still haven't got a test ride, though I had placed request with Honda twice. That really put me off, since I am supposed to be a "Premium" bike customer and I expect much more when I pay that kind of money.

Now coming to the bike and when logic kicked in, for me moving to a less powerful and heavier bike was a big No no. Coz I went through with it when I moved from Striple to Tiger. The power to weight ratio makes a huge difference in cheap thrills perspective and that is what I am using to justify my thought, nothing logical in that he he.

By that rationale, CRF1000 is a compromise for a GS1200 as CRF1000 buyer had 7 lakhs less to buy a better bike

It is actually, I have ridden the GS for few kms in Coonoor and mind you an old one, but the behaviour is totally worth that 7 lakhs and I will not dare take it anywhere close to what I would get myself into on a CRF. Again different perspective and situations. Like pulling a teeth out with a plier by the dentist.

Honda if you are listening, I still want a test drive. A long one at that, just to figure out if it is worth another emi of 6-7 lakhs (from now) for that DCT and awesome offroad bias. My logical mind says No, but the heart still has the itch to try the legendary model out.

[Red Liner]

Guys, please note that i said any bike which is lighter and has more torque is better than a heavier machine in the hills. Unfortunately, tradition says a lighter bike means lesser power. With the new proposed ktm 790 adv r weighing in at less than 200 kilos and with 100+ bhp, i hope tradition is well and rightly rewritten. I for one will never get another bike weighing upwards of 200 kilos. In so far as power, well if i can get it, and i can afford the purchase and mechanical upkeep, why not?

Btw, the tiger is more rideable everyday than the versys because of the lower seat height for sure. If only i could afford the additional 4 plus lakhs.

And yes jaggu, i want to explore trails that lead up to no where. Right now, i park and walk up. Having done enough offroad, that keeda wont go away any time soon lol.

Also there are a lot of personal under the table insinuations here. I apologise to proton for my jibe.