[Nithesh_M]

One or two bikes it may be owners but a large batch is indicative of a faulty brake mechanism. HD changed the brakes later on but didn't offer a recall for affected owners.

[laser2707]

Originally Posted by rahul4321

Today I can buy a Harley Davidson quite easily even without taking a loan but I will never give them my business because of their stuck up attitude and their behaviour towards me in 2011. And guess what- the tide has turned. Today, they need every sale they can get. How the mighty have fallen- in India as well as globally.

I had a similar experience with HD. It happened in 2012 at the Auto Expo. I was browsing the HD stand with a colleague. I wasn't remotely interested in buying a HD. However we got to discussing if HD bikes have enough ground clearance to take on Mumbai roads.

To get a visual estimate of the GC, I went close to one of the display bikes & bent down to have a closer look. The bikes were guarded by huge bouncers. One of them came up to me and rudely asked me get up & move on & not to get close to any of the bikes.

I found it extremely insulting & walked away. Since then this incident has rankled as an example of how not to exhibit/market a product. If you continue to shoo people away, one day your brand will end up getting shooed away.

That to me is the tragic story of Harley in India & rest of the world.

[ishan12]

While Matt Levatich was looking into diversifying and moving away from the traditional badass, badboy, big bike image of Harley, the new CEO seems to be moving towards a focus strategy into what has been the core of Harley, the big bulky archaic motorcycles.
Hopefully the Pan America will be big, bulky but not archaic.

IMO what is happening with Harley is something they have brought on to themselves. The favorable tax environment they got for themselves for 750 CC plus segment in USA during the Reagan presidency has come back to bite them in the behind after a few decades.

All the "character" debate aside, comparing just machine to machine, even today Harley's don't even come close to the Japanese or even Europeans (Read Triumph). Combine that with being absurdly overpriced and parts extremely expensive not just here but in US too, no wonder millennials don't even have them in consideration set anymore.

We here bash Royal Enfield left and right for being stuck with old technology, having push rods, vibrating, being unreliable and happily over look the exact same things when it comes to Harleys (which sell for more than a million rupees).
I had the opportunity of riding an Iron 883 once, believe me above 100kph that thing vibrates like 2 350 UCE engines put together and heats like 2 Duke 390s put together. I wonder why would someone shell out that kind of money except for the snob value of the brand Harley.

What is stopping Harley from doing what Triumph did, what Indian did or what Royal Enfield did. And even though Harley have had their ups and downs but they have always been better than these brands which practically resurrected from their graves.
The future is here in the growing markets and Triumph cleverly partnered with Bajaj to ensure they play big in the future.

I was fascinated with Harleys as a child and was so happy when they launched the Street 750, I had just started earning and was looking into buying one next year. But fortunately came across the news of RE developing a twin cylinder engine (rumored to be 750 at that time) and also read the reviews of the street 750 and all the bad brakes fiasco, decided to wait for the RE twins. And I am glad I did.
It was then that I actually started following Harley India, forums, HOG and owner reviews. Soon found out that the Street 750 guys are looked down upon even by Harley themselves and all the absurdly high service costs and endless wait for parts.
But it is sad so see an iconic brand dying a slow death.
Wish they come back with a bang.

[Warlock]

Originally Posted by ishan12

Soon found out that the Street 750 guys are looked down upon even by Harley themselves and all the absurdly high service costs and endless wait for parts.
But it is sad so see an iconic brand dying a slow death.
Wish they come back with a bang.

I've heard a lot about the Street 750 being looked down upon, but I don't think its true of most bikers. Most bikers just respect that a biker rides a motorbike.

However, Harley really needs to up its game on spare parts, and customization. I've had to wait months for spares, and that is torturous. Harley could also make it easier for customers to add bits and bobs (or even bigger parts) to their bikes. However, anything that requires to be shipped induces a soul cringing 3-4 months of wait.

I've really enjoyed the Harley Davidson bikes I've had (as long as I was not waiting for parts or repairs), and echo the sentiment that whats happening to this iconic brand is sad, and I hope they do bounce back.

[forty6]

Good riddance I say. As someone pointed out earlier, an 1800cc engine making 80 odd bhp, is beyond pathetic.

But that is me and my hatred for sofa with wheels, objectively speaking the F9 video hits bullseye, Harley suffered form a problem, where you start believing in the image that you have created. Anti-establishment is an image, it is not a product. Harley was anti-establishment, but so was a VW camper van. They are both different products, but cater to the same sentiment. Except VW went and found new sentiments, Harley never did. In fact if I remember correctly the Harley V-rod had a liquid cooled engine developed by Porsche and their customers rejected it because it was too smooth. So they ditched it. Instead of finding new customers and sentiment to appeal to them, they went on to make what the oldies will buy. And the trouble oldies with is, eventually they get older and a semicolon turns to a full stop. So, where are the new ones going to come from.

They thought from places like India. And who are the ones buying in India, not bikers. Most of the people buying Harley are those suffering from mid-life crisis and are afraid of consequences of an affair, another cure for mid life cirsis. So, they remember that in their early late twenties they let go of biking and settled for a job and are now wanting to get back to it. They are hardly the counter culture folks, they are the herd that makes culture. They are no sons of anarchy, they are sweet sons of mommies, but Harley can't change their own image to appeal to more of these folks, and once the initial euphoria passes, they all go back to their comfortable cars. Or worse still, for Harley, the the classier cousin of Harley, Triumph. Harley stuck too long on the epitome of toxic masculinity as its idol, and now as the world mellows down, no on wants a farting big ass guzzler, masquerading as a go anywhere machine. And to those who saw the adventure bike from Harley, it looks like someone designed keeping it in mind its geriatric target audience. I would be surprised even if that sold, where are the 50 year olds going to go on that sofa, HbA1c test?


I diss Enfield also, for the same reasons I don't like Harley -- mechanically outdated products, but I can't deny that the most people I meet on bikes, who are genuinely bikers are on Enfield. They went from the tough image to adventure, and then backed it up, and that I respect, even though I might not respect their products. The Himalyan has ads with adventurous women. And Interceptor is taking on the classy Triumph. That is marketing done right. Who would have thought the Indians would be teaching old Americans a thing or two about their favourite invention - marketing?

[maddy42]

A little sad to see a brand like Harley die.

If they go into bankruptcy then bought by a new younger owner with a little change from the accounting hacks running the firm can save this brand. Am sure Polaris or even Europeans or the chinese would not buy the brand.

But for this to happen they have to shed a lot of baggage. This is like marrying a guy with 5 kids from 5 wives. There are a lot of bad decisions made along the way and too much money is flowing out from his pocket to support that.

Little harley story: Bought a monster 696 after saving for it, in the US and had my helmet proudly placed on my desk at work in the US. My collegue who was a 60 year old lady came up to me and this was our conversation:

Colleague: You ride?
Me: Yeah.
Collegue: What did you get?
Me: A ducati monster.
Collegue: How big is it? (Not knowing the bike or the brand as everything is a crotchrocket if not a harley)
Me: 696 cc
Collegue: Oh its small! (Brushing me away)

Kinda hurt me a little but didnt give it much of a thought.

Later on a ride i met a older gentleman on a Panigale. He was following me and we got chatting. He had been riding for ages and still had the courtesy to engage in a conversation and appreciate the lines i was taking on the canyons and also gave me tips. He then opened up about his previous machine being a Harley. All the group rides in the states was from one bar to another bar, having beers, then riding to have some lunch, and the major conversation being the accessories one got, the chrome one added or the pipes to make louder noise.

This was what the marketing machine also focussed on.

Maddy

[Haroon]

The way it looks all across the world, I see its only downhill for Harley from here and I dont think its only HD and its products or marketing to blame, but HD is almost approaching the same stage as the Kodak-digital-revolution-doom-stage for a variety of reasons.

The whole Cruiser motorcycle market has always been an emotional segment, where performance, riding position, weight etc are not optimized or on a razor edge. When people didn't want something too fast, but still needed a road presence & large engine displacement, not too complicated but have most of the basic essentials and easy to maintain, not too high to flatfoot but still comfortable as a sofa etc etc they went and bought a cruiser. Anyways, in that cruiser group those that specifically wanted something with the whole Heritage bang-bang or The Original blah blah etc and didnt mind a little less reliable but costlier to buy and maintain bike they went and bought HDs (I even had a BMW T-Shirt that said "If Harley made an aircraft, would you fly in it??" ). On the other hand, those that thought a little less heavenly, and probably with less to spend, went and bought the metric cruisers from the Japanese big 4 or the limited offerings from Europe. The cruiser segment had a golden run for many decades or rather a century, mostly in North America and to a lesser proportion around the world and now it looks like that segment is neither getting a big number of returning buyers or new buyers and its shrinking at a much faster pace than glaciers around the world. Anyways, how many new model launches of the Intruder or Star or Shadow or Vulcans have you seen in the last couple of years from Japan? Besides, almost a decade back most of the high-profile S&S engined custom bike makers closed shop after a very brief & flamboyant few years of run. Anyways in India these latter 2 categories dont have much takers, due to image and price considerations respectively.

Bikers' priorities and needs have drastically changed and thats where Adventure bikes, Retro bikes, the mid displacement segment etc have created separate markets for themselves and it looks they are here to stay for sometime before probably some other newer trend catches up, but certainly doesn't look to be slanting anywhere even remotely towards the big-fat-pig cruiser market.

In parallel, the premium Europeans went into overdrive with razor sharp designs and super-duper technology (frankly some are blatantly over engineered and prone to irritating niggles etc) and hence many of the well healed buyers have replaced their yearly or biennial 'upgrades' from HD garage queens to other queens from BMW, Ducati, etc or added a 2nd or 3rd Retro Classic bike to their stable. The Japanese have also matched the European offerings with lesser expensive but more reliable bikes be it the Africa Twin, V-Strom 1050, CB1100, Katana, Z900RS etc and ofcourse the great Indian story of apna own RE with its successful Himalayan and the 650 twins which has sets its sales charts on fire all across the world. Imagine if RE instead made a Harley type sofa cum bed cruiser, we know where that would have headed!

In INDIA also, people seem to be losing interest in the Sportster models which sold well as that has not seen much design or tech updates and seems to be produced in cruise control mode. The Bonnevilles, the RE Twins, Scramblers etc have eaten into that segment, while many others have now lost their infatuation for Harley and moved to Adv bikes like Versys and V-Strom (some of which mainly due to backaches, vibrations and bumpy rides!). While the bigger bikes from Harley have got more expensive and with our own bad roads, speed-breakers, possibly even narrow bike lanes at toll gates, and having endured the unending agony of scrapping under body parts on our notorious roads due to the low ground clearance for many years plus long wait for critical spares etc as many have reported, a good number of potential Large displacement Harley buyers seem to be heading to buy a R1250GS Adventure or Ducati MS1250S etc with all bells and whistles, although many of those bikes will rarely see the gravel trails other than stand up riding when there are potholes on our main roads!

And for Harley, with too much of tradition in their DNA, any change from its conventional offerings has been less than successful in its cash register- so once bitten, twice shy, examples include its single cylinder bikes, opposed engine experiment after World War, or more recently the V-Rod, 1200XR and the present Street 500/750 range. Going further, I don't see much fireworks either with the Electric Livewire or the Pan America, both of which I am presuming are going to be priced thru the roof in India for exclusivity.

With such wide presence worldwide, they may perhaps limp for some more years and although may not shut shop, they may remain an also ran participant, and probably have a limited operation in India.

[landcruiser123]

Not just India, Harley Davidson around the world is in trouble. Their largest customer base in USA is aging and many of them have left for the heavenly abode.

I've visited their museum which is part of their HQ in Milwaukee and I can cay this for sure - the brand was a one-trick pony & never re-invented itself in the last 50 years. Motorcycles are toys for most Americans and people who have $$$ keep buying new toys. HD never saw the change in demographics (=millennials) and customer preferences hence were napping while Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki/Ducati/BMW encroached their turf.

With regards to HD India, it is too small for the HQ to really be bothered. Needless to say, their motorcycles are gigantic for Indian roads. Also, most Indians don't have the culture of spending their weekends tinkering their motorcycles on their yards.

RE seems to be taking steps in the right direction to avoid suffering like HD.

[low_rider]

Harley is a niche product and not many (especially in India) can buy it. Most of the people who could afford Harley have already purchased and are riding or sold off after the enthusiasm died down. The way economy has crawled in the last ten years, not many people have been able to upgrade themselves to enter the league of prospective Harley customers.

Secondly, by the time an average Indian corporate worker (like most of us) reaches the stage where we could be considered a prospective Harley customer, the harshness of Corporate survival has already hit us in the face. You are at a mid-senior level. Performance benchmarks are obnoxious. Forget the leaves, even a 48 hour no-calls, no-work weekend is a rare luxury. You have seen your colleagues, juniors and seniors getting laid off and you start saving frantically for your bad days. You know that returning a phone call with "Sorry Sir, I was riding in XXXX. No, I am not carrying a laptop" versus "I'll be online in 10 minutes" would mean a difference of life and death. The scarcity of jobs in the market, especially for 40+ age people takes out all the adventure and risk taking ability out of the life.

Coming to younger generation, you would have noticed that they are spending more on travelling/holidaying and other experiential activities. Rather than plonking 10 lakhs in a bike and getting limited to Ladakh, Himachal and Rajasthan, they are exploring Nigeria, Georgia, Mediterranean etc. etc.

The reality that Harley is facing will soon be faced by most of the niche companies in the world. Unless the economy again starts growing at pre-Lehmann rate.

[smooth indian]

HD is in trouble globally. IMO they haven't been churning anything attractive lately except maybe the street rod. Not so long ago they were selling the street 750 for Rs 4 lakh (ex-showroom) and the street 500 wasn't sold in India even though it would have sold for a more attractive price for Indians. Next thing I noticed was that they increased the price of the street 750 to around Rs 5.5 lakhs. Secondly the street line of economical bikes has some compromises with respect to ABS and all these factors didn't augur well for sales. Perhaps HD can learn from Triumph which also came through a bankruptcy and still sells large capacity bikes with retro styling and modern features. If they want to sell nostalgia and attitude then they can always look at Royal Enfield which still offers acceptable performance with an old world charm at an affordable price. If the ownership has to change I would hope HD is bought by a Japanese, Korean or Taiwanese investor. These are friendly countries for the US and might serve the HD brand well.

[bigron]

Firstly HD is or rather was the American dream and had little relevance in the Indian Motorcycle scheme of things.

It enjoyed the initial success it did here in India, because the market was opening up for super bikes and the brand was perceived as a massive lifestyle product the world over with a cult following that promised its riders liberalization, the joys of vast open road and brother hood. They were selling a lifestyle and not a motorcycle.

The company is failing in America because it has completely failed to attract the newer riding generation between the 20 to 35 age group. Old technology, dated designs, poor quality and exorbitant premium pricing did not catch the fancy of the younger rider.

The average age of a HD buyer traditionally is over 50 with a steady job and a 6 figure salary. They use it for recreational purposes and are one time buyers.

Also, back in the 80s , HD managed to cultivate an image that was parallel to being a patriot, rebel and anti system. Back then the prices of these motorcycles made them accessible to all these people. They just cannot afford a new Harley in todays time.

In India, HD was just a fad. We wanted to be part of a lifestyle no matter how far fetched the idea was in the Indian scheme of things. So a lot of middle aged men bought these to feel cool and young with their bloated bellies and receding hairlines.
The younger generation though enamored by the brand found it to expensive or rudimentary to do any serious riding on one. Everyone had the Terminator 2 poster of Arnold riding the Fat Boy. It looked cool but as a poster not as an investment.

The thing is HD failed to read the market. The older clientele already have one and the newer ones are just not interested. And the prices they are charging for what essentially are metal monstrosities does not help the matters.

[theqca]

I'll add my two bits based on my usage of a Harley for about 2 years way back in 99 or 2000 if I remember correctly. A friend left his bike with me when he was out of the country. It was a nice ”look at me I've got a Harley” sort of a feeling...It wasn't a very great experience to be honest in terms of handling or comfort but it felt good.

I used to fill 93 octane fuel from the petrol pump at breach candy and usually had a lot of people admiring the bike at night with the chrome gleaming especially since I always ride only after cleaning and polishing a bike. The bike terrible in traffic and I rode mostly at night.

I remember dropping a friend who used to live at the BARC building opposite Benzer once in the afternoon and the bike had overheated.

This feeling of wow I'm on a Harley wears out after a while especially if you've ridden other bikes and you start realising that the bike has a lot of issues and you start asking yourself "why did I put in so much money if I've got to put up with all of this". ( That was my friends problem in this particular case and there was nothing that could be done about it)

The company can still do a sort of a turnaround I guess. It's possible. But they'll have to change their thought process. They have to make bikes that sound like a Harley Davidson but can turn well, stop well and not overheat. I don't know if they really want to do that. Example - They made the Street 750 sound different. So it feels like an unwanted child. They need to capitalize on things that they are good at - brand value, the way the bike sound's etc and work on other areas.

[Malhi]

Originally Posted by VellVector

And those models have done reasonably well.

But I disagree that HD has tried to make any particular inroads in India, besides sales the company has never focused on improving any of its other processes.

Absolutely agree with you.

According to me, the least Harley could have done for the Indian market is give their bikes a higher ground clearance, softer suspension, bigger fuel tanks and not-so-soft alloy wheels.

Harley can still better their sales by making these changes for the Indian customer. But they can forget about India if it's customer doesn't even get the confidence of reaching home from the showroom without scraping the underbody.

[rajshenoy]

HD seem to be going Benelli way to launch those 350cc models by sourcing from China instead of forging an alliance like TVS-BMW, BAJAJ-KTM, BAJAJ-Triumph etc.

Not really a great idea, especially for our market.

[bf1983]

Originally Posted by Malhi

According to me, the least Harley could have done for the Indian market is give their bikes a higher ground clearance, softer suspension, bigger fuel tanks and not-so-soft alloy wheels.

Well the Street series has alleviated the situation a bit in that regard. The Street 750 has 145mm of ground clearance which isn't awesome but not as terrible as the older Harleys. And the Street rod has 205mm of ground clearance which is at SUV levels and unheard of in Harley bikes. Also the first liquid cooled Harleys though they still fry your thighs in traffic. Better mileage though which is a plus.

The tank capacity you are out luck as even the new Harleys just have 13.5 litre tanks which still give you a respectable 250 km tank range.