[Red Liner]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Spokes if you are considering offroading. Alloys if you wish to stick to tarmac. BMWs are prone to larger problems on spoked wheels v/s others who have adopted them.

I think we give way too much weightage to the word offroad. I can bet you that less than 0.5% of 900 owners in India attempt any kind of hard enduro that demands spoke wheels. And even then it’s way better to go traditional than tubeless spokes as you yourself have evidenced. Hell, I know that less than 1% of 390 adventure owners venture into soft enduro. Forget hard enduro.

This is hard enduro.

https://youtu.be/-zd7h9T1_8A

Anything less, cast or alloy wheels are absolutely enough.

The Japanese did it right with the Africa Twin coming with traditional spokes in their early gen models. But then even they had to bend over to their fat adv Starbucks customers who wouldn’t do the bending to fix their own flats and do tubeless spokes.

I know a friend who imported excel tubeless spoke wheels for his first gen africa twin and even that failed! And nobody could fix it properly. He paid well over a lakh for it.

Is this all even worth the mental stress? I would rather spend 10 days and learn how to fix traditional spoke wheels than go through all this.

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Ducatis and Hondas have had zero complaints on spoked rims. Triumph is their newest adopter, we'll see how things pan out but I am sure they won't be as bad.

Zero complaints is a good thing, but, these spoke rims are not maintenance free are they?

I believe you would need to keep checking the tension of the spokes as you do on regular spoke wheels as without proper tension, the wheel’s strength is compromised and that is what has lead to many accidents for GS owners.

So, if just basic tightening of the spokes on regular intervals does the job then that works for everyone, but if actual truing of the wheel is required then you land up with the problem what you’re facing and that is what I am concerned about as other brand owners too would be in a similar situation in India.

As per an article by MC garage you can try the following DIY to tighten loose spokes not sure if the same approach works for side-laced wheels as well:

“If you need to tighten your spokes, here’s a handy trick to make sure you tension the spokes consistently to avoid pulling the wheel out of true, laterally or radially—that’s side to side and up and down. Start at the spoke just after the valve stem; tighten no more than a quarter-turn, and then skip two spokes and repeat. This makes sure you pull evenly on each side of the wheel while not pulling the wheel out of whack up and down. After you go all the way around, move forward one spoke and repeat two more times.”

[JayPrashanth]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

I think we give way too much weightage to the word offroad. I can bet you that less than 0.5% of 900 owners in India attempt any kind of hard enduro that demands spoke wheels. And even then it’s way better to go traditional than tubeless spokes as you yourself have evidenced. Hell, I know that less than 1% of 390 adventure owners venture into soft enduro. Forget hard enduro.

This is hard enduro.

https://Youtu.be/-zd7h9T1_8A

Anything less, cast or alloy wheels are absolutely enough.

The Japanese did it right with the Africa Twin coming with traditional spokes in their early gen models. But then even they had to bend over to their fat adv Starbucks customers who wouldn’t do the bending to fix their own flats and do tubeless spokes.

I know a friend who imported excel tubeless spoke wheels for his first gen africa twin and even that failed! And nobody could fix it properly. He paid well over a lakh for it.

Is this all even worth the mental stress? I would rather spend 10 days and learn how to fix traditional spoke wheels than go through all this.

+1. OEM Alloys can handle off roading that people with less than 'super human' skills can put a big bike through. We're not doing 20 foot jumps here. Yes, alloys will crack instead of deforming like spoked wheels but that 'cracking point' is generally higher than the 'deformation point' of spoked wheels.

Coming to the utterly shoddy service meted out by BMW Motorrad, they must hang their heads in shame. If this is how a person spending Rs. 30 lakh is treated, I shudder to think about 'what goes' for people spending lesser money.

And what is this thing of people having to wait with their bikes when it's getting serviced? Who has time to wait in workshops in this day and age? Isn't top class service your right? Pay 30 lakhs, and then sit with the mechanic to fix your bike for you? Is this some kind of joke?

Cheers,

Jay

[ranjitnair77]

Originally Posted by Red Liner

Anything less, cast or alloy wheels are absolutely enough.

Yes. I agree. I bent my Bonneville rear rim which was alloy and got it replaced. I've slightly bent my V-Strom 650 front rim but there is no real issue so I wont bother unless it gets worse. I know people who have bent spoked rims and alloy rims on Tigers. In India, it's only a matter of time before your rim gets bent.

It seems to me that the whole one is better than the other argument is largely irrelevant to a vast majority of average Joe riders like me.

What hurts is:

• You hit a pothole on your supposedly "adventure ready" bike and you see a bent rim.
• The OEM says that you need a wheel replacement. Its super expensive and there is uncertainty whether warranty/insurance covers it. Even if it does, you need to wait weeks without the bike for the wheels to ship.
• You might want to repair but you cannot trust a repair here. Wheels are too integral for you to take a chance.
• Once things are done, you wait for the next pothole to bend your rim. It is always there at the back of your mind.

I'd happily trade-off the V-Strom's tubeless spoked wheels for traditional low-tech spoked wheels with tubes that can be easily repaired for not much money.

Moralfibre, it's shocking to see how this situation is being handled. Despite all the issues, escalations and this thread now going viral, they are still "deliberating". Unbelievably shoddy treatment of a customer. Let's hope they understand the gravity of the situation and ship new wheels across immediately.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Axe77

Any reason I should consider myself better off sticking with ADVs that are equipped with alloys?

The question should be the other way around, why do you want a spoked setup?

As redliner and moral said, unless you are into heavy and fast offroad riding, the pros of having an alloy rim outshines spoked wheels. Irrespective of it being tubeless or otherwise. No matter what, spokes would eventually need attention and that is a specialized job, be it an RX100 or BMW GS. This case as an example, if it was solid alloy wheels, worst case it would have been a clean swap and a wheel balance job. Not this painful begging process it has become.

@moral I assume the super busy folks at BMW not have still reverted to you. Isn't it clear as per the publically available doc that if the spokes have been getting loose multiple times, it is a CLEAN case of wheel replacement. In your case i remember this is the 3rd time the rear spokes have been tightened right? But ofcourse folks at BMW would need approval and some guidance from god almight also

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

@moral I assume the super busy folks at BMW not have still reverted to you. Isn't it clear as per the publically available doc that if the spokes have been getting loose multiple times, it is a CLEAN case of wheel replacement. In your case i remember this is the 3rd time the rear spokes have been tightened right? But ofcourse folks at BMW would need approval and some guidance from god almight also

Jaggu,

Coincidentally, received a call from Mr. Keswani and Mr. Nikhil who walked me through their next steps. They will be sending me a formal email with the details. The front rim arrives at the dealer's workshop today. I will be visiting them (hopefully) on Friday to swap it out.

The rear rim will undergo a detailed check for tolerances. Should the tolerances as per the guideline be out of spec, they will "do what is right".

I will try and make time for a visit on Friday. Let's see how that goes.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

I will try and make time for a visit on Friday. Let's see how that goes.

This is some good news! Take leave and get it sorted, it has been too long you have been living with this.

Hopefully, they will understand that the rear wheel also is a recurring issue in your bike and not a one off case and definitely is not a tolerance issue that needs measure. But then again, fair enough all companies have their process, we have to respect that. Hope it is not used just to escape from responsibilities. That is all.

All the best buddy!

[GoBlue]

Originally Posted by ranjitnair77

What hurts is:

• You hit a pothole on your supposedly "adventure ready" bike and you see a bent rim.
  
• Once things are done, you wait for the next pothole to bend your rim. It is always there at the back of your mind.

Fully agree with you Ranjit. Rim/alloy damage on Indian roads is purely a matter of luck, or rather, the lack of it.

If we take into account the kind of roads that these ADV bike manufacturers road-test the machines, do they ever encounter the kind of pot-craters that are to be found on Indian roads? One could say that on an off-road trail somewhere in the UK or Germany, the said ADV bike may happen to encounter terrain which can cause equivalent damage to the rim. I doubt however that such damage occurs on their normal A/B roads.

In our case however, it is not a given that if one never takes one's ADV bike on an off-road trail, it won't cause any damage to the rims. On the contrary, our A/B roads themselves have massive potholes. The stress/fatigue that the rim might be getting exposed to with a Indian road pothole could be similar to that of a particularly terrible section of an off-road trail.

Therefore it may not be safe to assume that ADV bikes with long-travel suspension (or any bike for that matter) are India-proof even if the usage is fully on-tarmac.

PS: This is purely a personal opinion and I could be wrong.

@Moralfibre:

I truly empathize with you on this situation and feel that as a customer who's an owner of a 30lac product, this incident/issue should have been handled with vastly better class/elegance by BMW.

However, all is well that ends well and we can hope that they learn from this debacle and ensure that in the future, they do the right thing for other customers facing similar issues.

[himanshugoswami]

After I had shared this thread with my bmw dealer he sent me this response. Posting here without comment since I have no clue about the facts of the case

. I gathered facts on a recent tbhp thread which is doing the rounds on the riding group and thought of sharing with all of you

1. As is evident from the pics , It’s an accidental 1200 GS
2.Customer Has a third party insurance policy where an independent surveyor has approves the parts for repairs and the same was agreed by the customer.
3. The insurance approved the rim without spokes and not the complete assembly
2. Since the bike reported for vibration at high speed to workshop and escalated the matter to BMW , the brand agreed with replacement of the complete front Rim assembly at a nominal cost to support the customer
3. There is now a demand by the customer for replacement of rear rim as well under warranty as few spokes are found loose , which is not approved as per BMW warranty guidelines. We all have special tools to do this job and I feel there is no need to replace the rim at all
This is just normal repairs which all GS riders go through then why so much noise in the community .
4. Some customers think that threatening to take up a matter on social media and tarnishing the image of the brand is the east way out but Such arm twisting for ones gain is just so sick

[moralfibre]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

After I had shared this thread with my bmw dealer he sent me this response. Posting here without comment since I have no clue about the facts of the case

Utter crap! They are fed misinformation. So here's the reality:

1. As is evident from the pics , It’s an accidental 1200 GS

The opening post is not from my bike. Therefore I don't know what he has researched and from where. It is from a thread in the forum which I have referenced related to the Stanchion separation issue. I believe this person should first learn to read and understand before trying to go on a fact finding mission. The owner is still at crosshairs with BMW India and have taken them to the court.

2.Customer Has a third party insurance policy where an independent surveyor has approves the parts for repairs and the same was agreed by the customer.

Wrong! Customer has a full bumper to bumper comprehensive and zero dep policy. The part for repair was decided by the dealership and not by the customer. I have mentioned this in my opening post. I had requested the entire assembly be replaced and claimed which the dealer did not! It was a simple issue from where things went on a downward slope. Your dealer is being fed misinformation.

3. The insurance approved the rim without spokes and not the complete assembly

The insurance approved everything without hesitation. In fact I had paid an advance out of my pocket to the dealer to fast track procurement and did not even wait for the insurance.

2. Since the bike reported for vibration at high speed to workshop and escalated the matter to BMW , the brand agreed with replacement of the complete front Rim assembly at a nominal cost to support the customer

True. After 4 months of the original issue and after a lot of noise and bad PR!

3. There is now a demand by the customer for replacement of rear rim as well under warranty as few spokes are found loose , which is not approved as per BMW warranty guidelines. We all have special tools to do this job and I feel there is no need to replace the rim at all
This is just normal repairs which all GS riders go through then why so much noise in the community .

This guy is either clueless or ignorant. BMW has issued major recalls everywhere and fixed these rims by means of replacement. The first youtube video referenced in this thread is an example of the same bike with same model and make confirming this. Their sorry behinds were sued in developed nations. Here they are taking us for a jolly good ride backed by fanboys who claim everything is hunky dory!

4. Some customers think that threatening to take up a matter on social media and tarnishing the image of the brand is the east way out but Such arm twisting for ones gain is just so sick

My condolences that this dealer is associated with BMW Motorrad India. Yours truly has tried to get this sorted amicably and as seen, without giving them a taste of their medicine, they did not wake up from slumber. Therefore, my $0.02 worth of advice to them would be to proactively listen and heed to customer issues. Not jump on in fire and wriggle your way out.

[neil.jericho]

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Wrong! Customer has a full bumper to bumper comprehensive and zero dep policy. The part for repair was decided by the dealership and not by the customer. I have mentioned this in my opening post. I had requested the entire assembly be replaced and claimed which the dealer did not! It was a simple issue from where things went on a downward slope. Your dealer is being fed misinformation.

For the life of me, I cannot understand what the dealership gained by not proceeding with an insurance claim from day 1. Did they want to reduce the numbers of claims from their side? Are they given guidance from BMW Motorrad in these matters? This decision has backfired on them tremendously.

It is also amazingly shortsighted of BMW to keep dragging their feet on this issue, when it has already been widely shared among the Indian motorcycling community. Why make the matter worse? And this is at a time when they have right priced their 310 motorcycles and want to target volume sales! nasirkaka's post about how the dealerships were treating 310 customers even before they had high sales was bad enough. Baffling are the ways of BMW in India.

BMW really needs to remember the old proverb - For the want of a nail, a battle was lost.

[mohansrides]

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

For the life of me....BMW really needs to remember the old proverb - For the want of a nail, a battle was lost.

Most corporate success stories hinge on one thing and one thing only - decision making capability of the management.

The converse is equally true. Massive failures are, many times, not due to bad decisions; but due to a lack of decisions. No one is willing to commit because the org is structured and cultured that way. The buck keeps getting passed and passed and passed... and passed. Meanwhile everyone gets old. If the org is lucky, the market forgets and moves on. Else, well, we know what happens.

P. S.

The best B schools cannot teach you to take decisions. They can teach you all about parsing data and about consuming information. But taking decisions? That you learn all on your own.

[ranjitnair77]

Originally Posted by GoBlue

If we take into account the kind of roads that these ADV bike manufacturers road-test the machines, do they ever encounter the kind of pot-craters that are to be found on Indian roads?

GoBlue, I'm not sure if there is anything unique about craters in India. I'm sure a lot of the folks in Europe and America ride these bikes harder in more off-road situations. They are also, in general, bigger and heavier than us.
I suppose a bent rim isn't a big deal for them. You bust a rim and the dealer fixes it or replaces it in a couple of days with minimal fuss. You shrug and get back on the bike.

Here everything is expensive, there is no experience in wheel repair, you jump through hoops with insurance and the dealer doesn't have inventory so you wait for weeks for the wheels to arrive. Everyone hyperventilates over a minor issue. That's what makes it so problematic.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by himanshugoswami

After I had shared this thread with my bmw dealer he sent me this response. Posting here without comment since I have no clue about the facts of the case

You saw the replies from moral right? Now if I were you, I would be very wary of dealing with such a dealership. Ensure each and every promise that they make is now recorded in email. And this clearly shows even BMW India has shared false info to their dealers to con the customers more.

Originally Posted by moralfibre

Utter crap! They are fed misinformation. So here's the reality:

This guy is either clueless or ignorant. BMW has issued major recalls everywhere and fixed these rims by means of replacement. The first Youtube video referenced in this thread is an example of the same bike with same model and make confirming this. Their sorry behinds were sued in developed nations. Here they are taking us for a jolly good ride backed by fanboys who claim everything is hunky dory!

And the rear wheel was a chance finding when you guys checked, this time also right? since it was already reported and tightened multiple times?

How the hell can a dealer say it is a routine issue? when its abundantly made clear world over that this is a defect.

The material on the rim is a rough finish right? Most likely this is the culprit and the spoke nuts are unable to grip on em properly. Fix would be a smooth powder coat in the spoke recess my guess.

Originally Posted by neil.jericho

For the life of me, I cannot understand what the dealership gained by not proceeding with an insurance claim from day

I suspect labor for whole wheel would have been minuscule, since it is a straight swap with balancing at best. Vs the whole disassembly and assembling of the spokes, rim etc.

[himanshugoswami]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

You saw the replies from moral right? Now if I were you, I would be very vary of dealing with such a dealership. Ensure each and every promise that they make is now recorded in email. And this clearly shows even BMW India has shared false info to their dealers to con the customers more.



.

Oh, that is hardly an issue- i always take every comitment made by an auto dealer in writing, ditto for the BMW. The sales mgr. promised waiver of logistics and depot charges, i did not give him the booking amount till he gave that to me in writing on the proforma invoice

@moralfibre, I would recommend you look at taking the legal route here if the dealer still shortchanges you. The new Consumer Protection Act is very pro consumer, and I have of late been representing a lot of clients against builders, with reasonably good success, since the revised law makes things that much easier for consumers. Find a good consumer lawyer in your city and take requisite action. If you need a second opinion, feel free to DM me and I will share my number