[aargee]

Source - Mint ePaper

Contents


Few more sources, if the previous URL is inaccessible
1. Link 1
2. Link 2

[straight6]

GSX-R 100 and VFR 100?

[phamilyman]

Ridiculous nonsense. Ideal for my toilet paper usage only.

People are buying other SBKs because of Harley's entry? cough cough.

[luky_13]

Its such a shame after so much of hoo-hah for 3 years and the ironic (or iconic) Mangoes for Harley's trade. Harley came up with such an un-inspiring pricing for the indian market as if they were trying to cover all their losses in the first 100 bikes they sold ! To top this up someone has the audacity to write an article like this...

[aargee]

Originally Posted by luky_13

Its such a shame after so much of hoo-hah for 3 years and the ironic (or iconic) Mangoes for Harley's trade. Harley came up with such an un-inspiring pricing for the indian market as if they were trying to cover all their losses in the first 100 bikes they sold ! To top this up someone has the audacity to write an article like this...

What is your point? I didn't quite understand. Is it the high price you're talking about?

[TheARUN]

The HARLEY in the picture is available for Rs.8,00,000/- (Reportedly)

This would set the cat among the pigeons. Good for all of us if the Japs reduce their prices by a few lakhs and get in the 600cc machines to compete with the HARLEY

[aargee]

Originally Posted by TheARUN

The HARLEY in the picture is available for Rs.8,00,000/- (Reportedly)

Reportedly where? Man, XR1200X costs nearly 12L ex showroom Delhi; check out the HD pricing in HD India website.

Originally Posted by TheARUN

Good for all of us if the Japs reduce their prices by a few lakhs and get in the 600cc machines to compete with the HARLEY

Besides there're no 600CC motorcycles available in India, especially from Japs.

[ghodlur]

A couple of days back I read an ad in some newspaper (Dont remember which one) about Ducati selling their bikes and the price mentioned was something Rs 15.7 lakhs, I dont remember the model. I think the location mentioned was Atria mall, Worli where I suppose Ducati has opened their showroom.

[aargee]

Originally Posted by ghodlur

A couple of days back I read an ad in some newspaper (Dont remember which one) about Ducati selling their bikes and the price mentioned was something Rs 15.7 lakhs, I dont remember the model. I think the location mentioned was Atria mall, Worli where I suppose Ducati has opened their showroom.

The cheapest Ducati is nearly 10L on GT1000 & their most expensive model is nearly 44L. Check out this post on the prices.
Sorry for the OT.

[Slick]

Yes the showroom is in Attria Mall worli and the most expensive Ducati is for 45 Lacs.
But then Ducatis are not for the ordinary enthusiast. You need to be pretty rich for that kinda bike.

The cheapest Harley is for around 8 lacs but that is a 800cc machine. And how would that encourage Indians to pay 10lacs+ for the Jap SBKs.

[JayPrashanth]

Why is Harley Davidson in India?

Because, they're doing terribly in their home market and turning things around won't be possible till they bring in new products. While that is completely understandable considering the pathetic state of the American economy, what I don't like is the fact that Harley will start peddling stuff to Indians that basically have no takers in the United States, and this isn't just about economics.

It is about bad, outdated, overpriced products. The HD motorcycle fleet is simply too old and too unrefined to find any buyers in the developed markets. So, they're planning to dump stuff in India and Brazil and make a neat wad till they manage to refresh/redevelop their entire line up.

And they might still succeed to a large extent in India/Brazil because of their still formidable marketing muscle. Almost everybody apart from the baby boomer generation in the States are shunning Harley for their overpriced, underperforming V-Twin range. What confounds me is the audacity of HD to price their seemingly average motorcycles at crazy pricing levels in India and still expect us Indians to go out and buy them.

Here's some food for thought.

How to Save Harley-Davidson – Step 1: Redefine and Reposition The Way You Market Your Brand

How to Save Harley-Davidson ? Step 2: Shift Your Product Lineup into New Segments

Harley-Davidson To Go Private? – Rumors of KKR Leveraged Buyout Spur Wall Street

Harley-Davidson Returns to Profitability

Cheers,

Jay

[pradipk]

Hey JayPrashanth, just cool down. What you say is correct but not all. Please find my inputs in bold.

Originally Posted by JayPrashanth

Why is Harley Davidson in India?

Because, they're doing terribly in their home market and turning things around won't be possible till they bring in new products. While that is completely understandable considering the pathetic state of the American economy, what I don't like is the fact that Harley will start peddling stuff to Indians that basically have no takers in the United States, and this isn't just about economics.

This is the major factor to enter into Indian market. (Also, it has relation with other norms. You can refer on Wikipedia). But it's not true that they're doing terribly bad over there. One can say it's still a niche market over there and there are Harley Lovers, unlike earlier days now lovers are old age people.

It is about bad, outdated, overpriced products. The HD motorcycle fleet is simply too old and too unrefined to find any buyers in the developed markets. So, they're planning to dump stuff in India and Brazil and make a neat wad till they manage to refresh/redevelop their entire line up.

They have survived Great Depression and competing Jap bikes too. Rather bad, outdated, overpriced products I use "Legendary product".

And they might still succeed to a large extent in India/Brazil because of their still formidable marketing muscle. Almost everybody apart from the baby boomer generation in the States are shunning Harley for their overpriced, underperforming V-Twin range. What confounds me is the audacity of HD to price their seemingly average motorcycles at crazy pricing levels in India and still expect us Indians to go out and buy them.

How can you say it's Crazy pricing in Indian market. Just compare their US site for details of price. I don't have money otherwise I would love to own Harley any time.

Here's some food for thought.

How to Save Harley-Davidson – Step 1: Redefine and Reposition The Way You Market Your Brand

How to Save Harley-Davidson ? Step 2: Shift Your Product Lineup into New Segments

Harley-Davidson To Go Private? – Rumors of KKR Leveraged Buyout Spur Wall Street

Harley-Davidson Returns to Profitability

Cheers,

Jay

I don't see the reason why they came, what matters is it's now available here. Slightly OT but one can do similarly compare Bullet with other Indian bikes.

[gthang]

Little surprised and disappointed at some of the nearsighted and uninformed opinions flying around. I would expect a layman to have a prejudice against Harleys as a "Rich Man"'s toy and an object of inferior technology and American showmanship, but I really expected a more informed audience in T Bhp, and I think aargee's original point was completely missed.

I have posted on other threads my opinion on this before, and dont mind harping it again as I have personally benefitted from this "superbike" phenomenon. I had dreamt about buying a superbike since my schooldays, and till recently getting a brand new world class bike in India remained just that, a dream. Only options left to many others like myself (All super rich well connected individuals exempted from this) were odd pieces that a few private dealers in Mumbai and other metros had, which came with dubious papers but still commanded premium pricing.

There is an economic crisis going on in the US, and everybody and their uncle knows about this. Then you hear about American legend coming to "booming economy" India. 2+2 means they are here to cash in on this situation. Now this is what I call nearsighted view. If one would care to know, the negotiation for Harley's entry to India started well before 2007 when all was well with US economy and Harley was peaking both in terms of sales and brand value. Maybe they had a farsighted view and wanted to get to a piece of the BRIC boom. So, whats wrong with peddling a little Americana and making some cash? Coke, Pepsi, Frito Lay, McDonalds all seem to be doing just fine in India.

Now if it was just a question of Nike selling its shoes, it would have been different. But for Harley to sell in India, you need a policy change by the Indian government. How many companies had to do that to sell their wares? One can only imagine the bureaucratic and diplomatic task involved in accomplishing this. How many other manufacturers have done this? Any uberluxury companies like RR, Bentley? What about BMW, Mercedes? Any other motorcycle manufacturers? Harley steadfastly kept going and made sure it was done and the govt accepted import of 800cc+ motorcycles. Sure, the japs were the first ones out the gate once this rule was made. But what infrastructure did they provide for their superbike owners? What are they providing now? But Harley is taking the time to study the market, get dealers who are committed and ensuring you not only get a superbike riding experience, but also the support and service essential to it.

Now the "Rich Kid"'s toy impression. Sure, Harley has lots of attitude associated with it, and a Harley owner can be stereotyped into one of many "categories". Rich mid-life crisis guys, hardcore tattooed bad boy types, flaunt money with chrome lawn ornaments types, etc, etc. But isnt that the beauty of it? You can be any one of those types, or not, be just a plain old joe who likes to ride. There will be a Harley suitable for you. You can get one for no more than the cost of a new Honda city. Now if you were a single young guy with a job that can afford you a midsize car, but would rather buy a bike, would you not be interested? Dont you think there are thousands of such guys in India? Would they all be considered "rich spoiled kids" for doing this?

As far as inferior technology goes, yes, they are old designs, but they are tried and tested and "legendary". What does this mean? You can buy a loaded to the gills with technology high tech jap engine with titanium and carbon fibre and magnesium alloy doodads, but since it is a 2 year old model, sorry, no parts available. Would you like the new model with a slipper clutch instead? Whereas you can take your 20 year old Harley to the dealer, send that worn out engine back to factory for back to stock rebuild, buy all new shiny parts again, or maybe you want to go retro and put a suicide shifter, whatever you want. As far as performance goes, a Harley can keep up with any bike on any legally motorable road anywhere, and just in case this jap performance advantage really gets on your nerves, there is an universe of aftermarket mods available to regain the performance edge.

Phew!! Dont know why I get so worked about Harley, I am not even the typical Harley type

[JayPrashanth]

Originally Posted by pradipk

Hey JayPrashanth, just cool down.-> Totally uncalled for. What you say is correct but not all. Please find my inputs in bold.



I don't see the reason why they came, what matters is it's now available here. Slightly OT but one can do similarly compare Bullet with other Indian bikes.

I ride a Bullet LB500 and I have absolutely no qualms about accepting how ancient my motorcycle is with respect to technology, and the gains-gremlins associated with such a technology. I bought it because I like low tech as I can work on my motorcycle myself. I have nothing against Harley Davidson but I prefer calling a spade a spade. :-)

Originally Posted by gthang

There is an economic crisis going on in the US, and everybody and their uncle knows about this. Then you hear about American legend coming to "booming economy" India. 2+2 means they are here to cash in on this situation. Now this is what I call nearsighted view. If one would care to know, the negotiation for Harley's entry to India started well before 2007 when all was well with US economy and Harley was peaking both in terms of sales and brand value. Maybe they had a farsighted view and wanted to get to a piece of the BRIC boom. So, whats wrong with peddling a little Americana and making some cash? Coke, Pepsi, Frito Lay, McDonalds all seem to be doing just fine in India.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in peddling stuff as long it isn't imposed on anybody. I merely highlighted their peddling.

Now if it was just a question of Nike selling its shoes, it would have been different. But for Harley to sell in India, you need a policy change by the Indian government. How many companies had to do that to sell their wares? One can only imagine the bureaucratic and diplomatic task involved in accomplishing this. How many other manufacturers have done this? Any uberluxury companies like RR, Bentley? What about BMW, Mercedes? Any other motorcycle manufacturers? Harley steadfastly kept going and made sure it was done and the govt accepted import of 800cc+ motorcycles. Sure, the japs were the first ones out the gate once this rule was made. But what infrastructure did they provide for their superbike owners? What are they providing now? But Harley is taking the time to study the market, get dealers who are committed and ensuring you not only get a superbike riding experience, but also the support and service essential to it.

As a middle class motorcyclist, I would have appreciated Harley Davidson if they had set up a plant here in India and built a low cost Harley. Maybe I would have been able to buy one if that had happened. But it didn't happen. So, I'm simply not too enthused or elated. Harley Davidson steadfastly persisted because they knew their time was up in the States. It's that simple.

Now the "Rich Kid"'s toy impression. Sure, Harley has lots of attitude associated with it, and a Harley owner can be stereotyped into one of many "categories". Rich mid-life crisis guys, hardcore tattooed bad boy types, flaunt money with chrome lawn ornaments types, etc, etc. But isnt that the beauty of it? You can be any one of those types, or not, be just a plain old joe who likes to ride. There will be a Harley suitable for you. You can get one for no more than the cost of a new Honda city. Now if you were a single young guy with a job that can afford you a midsize car, but would rather buy a bike, would you not be interested? Dont you think there are thousands of such guys in India? Would they all be considered "rich spoiled kids" for doing this?

As far as inferior technology goes, yes, they are old designs, but they are tried and tested and "legendary". What does this mean? You can buy a loaded to the gills with technology high tech jap engine with titanium and carbon fibre and magnesium alloy doodads, but since it is a 2 year old model, sorry, no parts available. Would you like the new model with a slipper clutch instead? Whereas you can take your 20 year old Harley to the dealer, send that worn out engine back to factory for back to stock rebuild, buy all new shiny parts again, or maybe you want to go retro and put a suicide shifter, whatever you want. As far as performance goes, a Harley can keep up with any bike on any legally motorable road anywhere, and just in case this jap performance advantage really gets on your nerves, there is an universe of aftermarket mods available to regain the performance edge.

I am sorry. I still have to stick to my guns of calling Harley Davidson Motorcycle's ones laden with inferior technology. That, really is the case and I cannot help calling inferior technology that. Most people disenchanted with HD's aren't asking for carbon fiber nor trick bits like slipper clutches. They just want bomb proof reliability and low maintenance. Harley Davidson's simply aren't up to current times and that is a fact. And, performance doesn't mean going fast. When did I say that? Performance includes braking, turning, and heck, parking too. About aftermarket kits, why should one have to buy kits when it very well can be a part of standard equipment? Harley milks it's customers to the hilt and I personally don't like it. And this is strictly my humble opinion.

If one really wants a HD, there is no one stopping you from buying one. However, this doesn't change the fact that you will still be buying something that is running on technology that is way behind current times, does it? Meanwhile, about Harley Davidson supporting their 20 year old models, you need to ask people who own Harley Davidson's back in the United States. Harley encourages owners to trade up, not repair stuff and get going. Please ask any balanced American Harley owner this and you'll know what goes on. It's small wonder that they have cash back offers that encourages existing owners to trade up. All said, I would buy a Harley Davidson if I had the money because I like simplicity. This would be particularly useful for me as I would be able to fix thing when they break and on old tech machines, they happen more often than not.

About the pricing, old technology in my opinion simply doesn't command the price tags Harley sells it's motorcycles at. This applies to Harleys sold in the United States as well. This is a major reason why a lot of young people despise HD in the US as well.

Phew!! Dont know why I get so worked about Harley, I am not even the typical Harley type

We all get worked up about things we feel strongly about, don't we? :-)

Cheers,

Jay

[gthang]

Lets agree to disagree on some things. If you do, let me state some opinions. Yes, you, me and a lot of the motorcycling world know that Harleys are outdated in terms of engine, handling, brakes, reliability, etc, etc. Are they good enough for Indian roads? Yes. Is a well handling, high performance superbike being used to its full potential in India? No. Is it comfortable enough for everyday usage in India? Yes. Can I expect reasonable level of reliability for typical Indian user? Yes. When Harleys are considered premium motorcycles in the rest of the world, why should it be different in India? Still, the entry level Harley is the cheapest superbike available in India today. Why would Harley abandon its "Made in America" USP and start manufacturing in India to appease the large Middle class biker segment? Why not the large middle class biker community appeal to the govt to reduce import taxes instead? Not possible? At least Harley actually tried. Has the entry of Harley to India increased sale of superbikes in India? NO. It actually started the sale of superbikes in India. So, the question of increase is moot.