[ebonho]

Thanks for your help guys! Really appreciate it.

After back to back TDs of the Xylo and the Innova, my wife and girls liked the refinement of the Innova, while my son and I liked the slightly better pickup (somehow the Innova just didn't have the rollon pull uphill in 2nd gear start stop traffic) and the ruggedness (height/size/feel) of the Xylo as well as its space/third row.

The other issue is that this car is basically a company purchase and the budget is set at 11 lacs - anything more needs to be topped up by me, which somehow does not make sense for a vehicle that is not on my name. After 4 years there would be a buy-back option, but that's really too long away to consider as part of the decision making process.

So in 11 lacs I get only the bare-bone G version of the Innova or the fully loaded E8 with ABS and Airbags of the Xylo (plus with discounts/insurance+extended warranty waivers, I actually have 60+ K still remaining for things like TV, GPS, Interiors, and a lot of other stuff).

Plus in the Xylo I get 2nd and 3rd row AC vents while the Innova G has only the dashboard AC vents (some say only the center 2 - not even the extreme left and right ones?). I have heard many people saying that the Innova AC is really powerful and that there should not be a problem in proper cabin cooling (albeit taking a little longer) even with only front vents if you direct them towards the roof so that the cooling bounces off towards the rear of the cabin. Can the Innova AC without rear vents manage cabin cooling duties for peak Pune summers? This is probably the MOST important feature I am missing in the Innova + Budget purchase decision.

Also the Innova G does not have rear demister/wiper which might be important in cars of this size with huge expanses of glass. How badly will these features "really" be missed in the Innova during the monsoons? Can I live without them? Is there an inexpensive after-market retrofit option?

The Innova G also does not have anything besides the basics like PS, PW, and Central Locking. No rear parking sensors. PVC instead of fabric seats. No music system even!

The other cars which were there in the shortlist but which have now probably not made it to the final decision point are:

Scorpio - has a front facing third row but too cramped - also bounces and bobs all around the place a lot - nice responsive engine though

Safari - no front facing 3rd row, and jump seats have zero headroom (I have a family of 5, which includes a 5'9" growing son, and would like to take my parents for vacation drives too - so a proper third row is a must) - my son and I loved the look and feel though :( Also the EX does not have rear AC.

Sumo Grande MkII - too agricultural, though I like the outside look and feel, and the space inside is not bad too. Also has a lot of brake dive and bobbing and swaying and jumping at the rear too. Also as my sanctioned budget is 11 lacs, I might as well buy something that uses it up - the Grande top version is more than a lac cheaper OTR even for a company purchase.

Aria - not in this budget. :(

In spite of all of the above, I have decided to go with the Innova simply due to its reputation (each and EVERY knowledgeable car buff I have spoken to, including guys from industry and the auto mags, say Innova eyes closed - regardless of how bare bones it is).

Also, the interiors of the Innova are way superior and well thought out in terms of adaptability and flexibility. The zero luggage space of the Xylo is another put off for me in terms of my planned usage (married guys will empathize with the way ladies and little girls pack for even 1-2 day trips!). The Innova does exude class - no two ways about that.

The engine though is a let down - or maybe I have just not driven it enough in the real world to appreciate its hidden attributes. The Xylo definitely feels more sprightly.

The other (and for me pretty important) deciding factor for the Innova versus the Xylo is the reliability and aging factor. From whatever I have read and heard (the Xylo has been around for nearing 3 years now so the body of data is growing) the Innova holds itself together (mechanically, engine/electricals wise, and aesthetically, externally and internally) better and for longer than the Xylo.

I have seen and sat in taxi Innovas with over 2 lakh kilometers on the road with nothing hanging off, nothing broken, nothing worn off, no rattles and hums and shakes. That really appeals to me. I drive a Baleno which is now nearing its 7th year of life, and she has aged beautifully in every way. I want my next car to be at least as good. Also, in spite of the company purchase, the bill for the maintenance comes to me, so that is definitely a factor in the cost of ownership stakes for me!

On the issue of safety, the Xylo with ABS and Air Bags (and wider tyres) scores a big plus over the Innova G, but from the auto mags people I have spoken to who have tested both back to back extensively, they say that the Innova more than compensates with its better handling, ride, and dynamics at high speed and cornering and braking poise in comparison to the Xylo. In fact one in fact went as far as to say that the Xylo with ABS was in fact a scarier option because of the way it handles at speed .... But frankly, though it would definitely have been nice to have these features, I can live without them, as I plan to use this car more for family vacation relaxed long drive duty than for aggressive road racing type thrills (for which my Baleno is always there )

I know this is the Tyres and Alloys section, but the reason for this original post was linked to the decision confusion I was having for choosing which car to go with, so I thought I would try and put down my thought process here for you experts so that you can offer your advice and valued inputs and help me with my decision. In case the moderators feel it fits better in another section, please do move it there, because I know it (the Innova vs Xylo debate) has been rehashed many many times, but I would like to hear from the wealth of experts and enthusiasts here.

[Buffetfan]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Thanks for your help guys! Really appreciate it.

After back to back TDs of the Xylo and the Innova, my wife and girls liked the refinement of the Innova, while my son and I liked the slightly better pickup (somehow the Innova just didn't have the rollon pull uphill in 2nd gear start stop traffic) and the ruggedness (height/size/feel) of the Xylo as well as its space/third row.

The wife is always right !

The other issue is that this car is basically a company purchase and the budget is set at 11 lacs - anything more needs to be topped up by me, which somehow does not make sense for a vehicle that is not on my name. After 4 years there would be a buy-back option, but that's really too long away to consider as part of the decision making process.

Most of the company purchases allow you to buy back the car in case you leave the company mid way. This is normally done by foreclosing the lease. I repurchased two of my cars in the past so please carefully consider if you want to "top up" and get the V model.

So in 11 lacs I get only the bare-bone G version of the Innova or the fully loaded E8 with ABS and Airbags of the Xylo (plus with discounts/insurance+extended warranty waivers, I actually have 60+ K still remaining for things like TV, GPS, Interiors, and a lot of other stuff).

Toyota is a bit pricey. Isnt it?

Plus in the Xylo I get 2nd and 3rd row AC vents while the Innova G has only the dashboard AC vents (some say only the center 2 - not even the extreme left and right ones?). I have heard many people saying that the Innova AC is really powerful and that there should not be a problem in proper cabin cooling (albeit taking a little longer) even with only front vents if you direct them towards the roof so that the cooling bounces off towards the rear of the cabin. Can the Innova AC without rear vents manage cabin cooling duties for peak Pune summers? This is probably the MOST important feature I am missing in the Innova + Budget purchase decision.

For around 30 k, please get the 2nd AC grill installed in case you get the G model. For more details, see one of the threads http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/modifi...ta-innova.html . It is very effective and does not cost a bomb. If you get it from the dealer, the warranty will be honored too.

Dont wait and test. It is a big car and while the second row will be fine, the last one may not like it in the summers.

Also the Innova G does not have rear demister/wiper which might be important in cars of this size with huge expanses of glass. How badly will these features "really" be missed in the Innova during the monsoons? Can I live without them? Is there an inexpensive after-market retrofit option?

I have the Innova VX and have never used the demister as it does not dry up the water, but is for snow. Well, the rear wiper again, somewhat useful but not something that you will miss sorely.

The Innova G also does not have anything besides the basics like PS, PW, and Central Locking. No rear parking sensors. PVC instead of fabric seats. No music system even!

You are a bit late. I could have given you my Toyota music system as I did not like it at all and bought new system and new speakers. Please get the central locking installed. The parking sensors are useful too and there are threads on Team BHP discusssing those.

The other cars which were there in the shortlist but which have now probably not made it to the final decision point are:

Aria - not in this budget. :(

Well, I have done Aria test drives and Innova has better ride and handling combination as well as better fit and finish.

In spite of all of the above, I have decided to go with the Innova simply due to its reputation (each and EVERY knowledgeable car buff I have spoken to, including guys from industry and the auto mags, say Innova eyes closed - regardless of how bare bones it is).

They are correct.

Also, the interiors of the Innova are way superior and well thought out in terms of adaptability and flexibility. The zero luggage space of the Xylo is another put off for me in terms of my planned usage (married guys will empathize with the way ladies and little girls pack for even 1-2 day trips!). The Innova does exude class - no two ways about that.

It is useful. On the last trip from Hyderabad to Chikmagalur, all the luggage was in the boot area while the kids were slipping on the rear and the rearmost seats. It can take couple of medium size suitcases and a couple of duffel bags .

The engine though is a let down - or maybe I have just not driven it enough in the real world to appreciate its hidden attributes. The Xylo definitely feels more sprightly.

It is not bad at all. You will not find it lacking in power at any time. It may not have the peaky power delivery but it is very very linear and even at 120kmph on an incline, the speed will not drop.

The other (and for me pretty important) deciding factor for the Innova versus the Xylo is the reliability and aging factor. From whatever I have read and heard (the Xylo has been around for nearing 3 years now so the body of data is growing) the Innova holds itself together (mechanically, engine/electricals wise, and aesthetically, externally and internally) better and for longer than the Xylo.


I have seen and sat in taxi Innovas with over 2 lakh kilometers on the road with nothing hanging off, nothing broken, nothing worn off, no rattles and hums and shakes. That really appeals to me. I drive a Baleno which is now nearing its 7th year of life, and she has aged beautifully in every way. I want my next car to be at least as good. Also, in spite of the company purchase, the bill for the maintenance comes to me, so that is definitely a factor in the cost of ownership stakes for me!

Correct. Plastics and other compnents age way better. My other car is a Baleno too that is now in the seventh year of its life and has been trouble free after 71k kms.

On the issue of safety, the Xylo with ABS and Air Bags (and wider tyres) scores a big plus over the Innova G, but from the auto mags people I have spoken to who have tested both back to back extensively, they say that the Innova more than compensates with its better handling, ride, and dynamics at high speed and cornering and braking poise in comparison to the Xylo. In fact one in fact went as far as to say that the Xylo with ABS was in fact a scarier option because of the way it handles at speed .... But frankly, though it would definitely have been nice to have these features, I can live without them, as I plan to use this car more for family vacation relaxed long drive duty than for aggressive road racing type thrills (for which my Baleno is always there )

As suggested, top up and get the V model or please get wider tires 225/60R15 (I have).


Some more of my ownership experience can be found at http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ml#post2112814

My Innova - Xylo dilemma

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post1635233

Good luck!

[ebonho]

Thanks for the detailed reply Buffetfan. While digging around for comparo info, I have actually read many of your Innova posts and did notice that there were a lot of other Baleno + Innova combos here If I go for the Innova, I will stick to the G version, as I will have to top up close to 70K anyways for Insurance (approx. 30K - only 3rd party covered by company) and basic accessories (approx. 40K), like:

1) Music system + Blue Tooth (approx. 10K)
2) 3M/Lumarr/VKool Filming (approx. 12-15K)
3) Art Leather Seat Covers + Steering/Gear Knob leather cladding (approx. 5-8K)
4) Floor Carpets (for seating area) + Rubber Mat for boot (approx. 5K)
5) Rear Parking Sensor (approx. 5K)
6) Mud Flaps (approx. 1K)
7) Body color painting of lower two slats of front grille (approx. 1K)

My heart is still set on a Safari though - if I can somehow figure out a woraround to the 3rd row issue. Will be taking a test drive soon as well! My wife has given up on me and is reconciled to going along for the yo-yo ride ..... Only issue is, with the Merlin around the corner, what is the general opinion here about going in for the soon to be phased out Safari 2.2 Dicor VTT (I guess the Merlin will come with the same engine too, but in different trim - ala the Aria)? Though still no front facing 3rd row apparently.

[Buffetfan]

[quote=ebonho;2496928]

Thanks for the detailed reply Buffetfan. While digging around for comparo info, I have actually read many of your Innova posts and did notice that there were a lot of other Baleno + Innova combos here If I go for the Innova, I will stick to the G version, as I will have to top up close to 70K anyways for Insurance (approx. 30K - only 3rd party covered by company) and basic accessories (approx. 40K), like:

I agree that there are a lot of Innova+ Baleno as well as Baleno+Santro combos on the forum. Great minds think alike! Dont purchase insurance from the dealer but pls shop around and also check if you can pass on your no claims bonus on the previous car and pay a lower premium.. Of course not sure if the companies can do it but certainly possible for individual purchases.

2) 3M/Lumarr/VKool Filming (approx. 12-15K)

I dont have film in the Baleno or the Innova. Why stop the little bit of sun we get and then get early arthiritis. Also, the link I gave you - the second AC grill is actually INR 18k and far more effective compared to a sun film. So pls get the second AC grill instead of this film.

3) Art Leather Seat Covers + Steering/Gear Knob leather cladding (approx. 5-8K)

I dont have any seat covers in the past three cars I have owned. even after 6.5 years and two little kids growing up in the car, the Baleno seats have not gathered a single mark. Also note that seat covers change the seat contours, reduce the thigh space and in my view decrease seating comfort overall.

4) Floor Carpets (for seating area) + Rubber Mat for boot (approx. 5K)

The Toyota carpet mat (fabric) costs <3k . Pretty durable too.

5) Rear Parking Sensor (approx. 5K)
6) Mud Flaps (approx. 1K)

Useful Items

My heart is still set on a Safari though - if I can somehow figure out a woraround to the 3rd row issue. Will be taking a test drive soon as well! My wife has given up on me and is reconciled to going along for the yo-yo ride ..... Only issue is, with the Merlin around the corner, what is the general opinion here about going in for the soon to be phased out Safari 2.2 Dicor VTT

My neighbor had bought it and sold off after 2 years to purchase a SX4. Did not have enough time to get the niggles sorted out. Also, try changing lane and then cutting back to the same lane, at high speed in an Innova and a Safari - you will be surprised at the difference in handling.

[ebonho]

Thanks Buffetfan for your point to point replies bro.

I see you are based in Hyderabad, but since you are an old timer here, would you by chance know who/where in Pune does the best AC retrofitting job? Ditto for other car accessories listed (no sense getting from showroom if not part of the package I guess)?

Also, is there any workaround to getting the rear window glasses of the 3rd row to open partially (like in the Xylo and Tavera)? My elder daughter is slightly claustrophobic.

Was also thinking of some way of converting the 3rd row bench into an extended platform (temporary/reversible; extending to take over the empty lag space area till the backs of the middle row captain seats) for nighttime sleeping duty for the smaller kids .... with a mattress over the whole space and pillows too!

Something like 2 stainless steel lab stools collapsed and slid under the 3rd row bench, which can then be slid out/forward and raised to the same height of the bench (via a 2-3 height adjustable slot-type mechanism for the legs). Should be able to provide a pretty decent sleeping area for two kids

If I must buy an "uncle" minivan, might as well go the whole hog and convert it to something totally family-man style!

[mayankjha1806]

With Toyota you can buy having eyes closed, i have myself seen Toyotas running close to 200,000 Kms (Innova and Qualis) and they do last long. I have never sat or driven a Xylo hence cannot comment on its capabilities.

On Safari i almost come to office daily on one and can vouch for its ride quality and in general nothing critical goes wrong in a Safari, although a few things may start making some noise periodically, but its not too difficult to get them rectified. Only catch with Safari is with Merlin round the corner it might be worth the wait, Merlin will surely have better fit and finish and QC albeit slightly more expensive then the current Safari. If you are ok with cost going up slightly then it might be worth the wait.

[himanshugoswami]

[quote=Buffetfan;2497559]

Originally Posted by ebonho

My neighbor had bought it and sold off after 2 years to purchase a SX4. Did not have enough time to get the niggles sorted out..

were you my neighbour when I was in Hyderabad by any chance? this is exactly what I dd

[ebonho]

Thanks Mayank. I am in the same dilemma about the Merlin/old Safari vs base Aria (I would top up for either of these if I get a good "deal"). Waiting is not a problem. Indefinite waiting is. And thats what it looks like from the long Merlin thread here. It seems to be taking forever, with no definite end in sight.

P.S. Another black Baleno (I have a white one)

P.P.S. I saw the actual rear compartment of a Safari in the flesh yesterday. As well as clambered in to sit on one of the jump seats. I am 181 cms tall. It was not a nice experience. The seat is literally a few inches off the floor. I saw another thread about someone who had fitted a Sumo/Tavera type jump bench. I just cannot imagine anything like that fitting in that area. Where is the leg room? Forget the non-existent headroom. And then does the driver get to see anything through the rear glass at all? I doubt it.

I just somehow, anyhow, want to get the best of both worlds here .... get the Safari, and still manage to fit in my dada and mom, as well as my family of 5. Looks increasingly impossible/very difficult. The kind of journey I am looking at (with parents) would be max Pune-Panchgani (120 odd kms) or Pune-Udvada (350 odd kms) or Pune-Goa (450 odd kms). Considering my dad would be co-driver seat, my mom, wife, and tall-ish teenage son would be in the middle row seat, would a 10 yo girl (close to 5 feet tall) and a 5 yo girl find the back bay jump seats ok for these distances? These trips would be once in a while, and the rest of the time (90+%) it would just be the 5 of us which should be fine I guess.

Its not that I am a major off-roading enthusiast, but the looks and image of the SUV, the driving position (big "truck" feel), and the ability/GC to take bad roads/no roads (even in a 4x2 version - which is the EX version that I will get in my budget), are all plus points over the Innova which to be honest does not excite me at all. It just is the better choice for my needs. But does not check anything else. I am willing to live with all the niggles and maintenance the Safari will throw at me. Neither am I too squeamish about mileage or rough edges.

To put things in perspective, I at one time owned three Royal Enfield Bullets, all of them 500s.

[condor]

@ebonho, congrats ! A good decision, and a good decision to go with some practical advice in favor of the Innova.

Originally Posted by ebonho

Also the Innova G does not have rear demister/wiper which might be important in cars of this size with huge expanses of glass. How badly will these features "really" be missed in the Innova during the monsoons? Can I live without them? Is there an inexpensive after-market retrofit option?

The de-mister is useful on all cars, irrespective of the size of the rear windshield. The wiper is useful on all cars like SUV's, MUV's & hatchbacks. Again, not dependent on the glass. Whether you will miss it or not will depend on how much you use the rear-view mirror - basically how often you check the road behind you. If you are a driver who likes to keep track of what's happening behind you (for upcoming vehicles), you will miss it to at least some extent.

No in-expensive after market options, and definitely not ones that can be executed well. IMO.

Apart from the refinement & everything else, one place the Innova will win with time is the re-sale value.

So here's wishing you a long, happy & safe ownership of this lovely vehicle.

[ebonho]

Thanks for your inputs condor. I do check the IRVM quite regularly (esp. on the highway).

As for the re-sale value advantage, in my case that is not a major decision factor really as this will be a company-bought self-maintained/fueled car.

[ghodlur]

Just my perspective from being a rear passenger in both Innova and Xylo, I can say that the ride quality in Innova is far far better than Xylo. Xylo's ride was a bit more rock and roll type but defintely as you said the engine is more zippier than the Innova which at some time felt as it the engine was getting lugged. Also the rear passenger room is more in Innova than the Xylo.

I must say its a difficult decision for that budget - getting a safety secure Xylo or quality confirmed Innova. All the best.

[Akshay1234]

To be honest, get the Innova. In terms of driving long distances you will be much more comfortable. I too upgraded to an Innova from the Baleno, and its worked perfectly for the past almost 5 years.

Try and get the GX if you can with the factory fit rear AC. Or if you can then the top of the line VX and you will only have to add sunfilms on that (please get them contrary to what anyone says, they are a HUGE help) since all the other features will be there.

If it is the Innova G then I would suggest you forget it and get the Xylo since the G is too bareboned. It may be reliable but as a family car it needs to have some comfort, and its not like the Xylo will breakdown or anything.

[Zed]

Having been driven around in many Innovas and Xylo my take as a passenger is that seating ergonomics of the Xylo suit my 5.10" frame better than the Innova. The Innovas seats ( front and rear ) were a bit low for my comfort. My recollection is that I was able to snooze longer and in greater comfort in the Xylo's middle reclining seat as compared to the Innova's on the same route (My commute to work alternated between an Innova and a Xylo on a weekly basis). On the flip side there was greater body roll \ pitch in the Xylo. I guess its a combination of suspension characteristics, seat position and the ergonomics of the seat design& its fabric\material that provides seating comfort.

From a driving perspective, my impression was the same as yours, ebonho. The Xylo seemed peppier while the Innova had a greater degree of refinement and car-like feel.

[ebonho]

Thanks so much ghodlur, akshay, and zed for your replies! I really appreciate you guys taking the time out to help someone rehashing what must have been discussed here a zillion times already.

Speaking of the engine, I read somewhere that the BSIV engines of the revamped (2010 I guess) Innova have slightly more bhp than the original BSIII 102 bhp mills (I recall reading 5+ or 109 bhp somewhere). But the brochure and website still mentions 102 bhp only. Whats the reality actually?

Akshay actually in my mind the decision now is Innova or the Safari/Merlin/Aria. The Xylo is not on my radar any longer. It does just space (marginally to Innova) and equipment (second to none) very well, and comes away 2nd or 3rd best to Innova in fit/finish/quality/reliability/ride/handling and to Safari in looks/road presence/ego boost/big feel/SUV rough road ability/toughness. So as a driver it checks none of the critical boxes for me, and for my passengers, the Innova would be nearly as good in space, and both the Innova/Safari would have it beat everywhere else amongst them.

As for the choice of the Innova variant, actually as far as I am concerned, the G only really loses out to the GX in rear AC vents (which I can retrofit for 20K) and the rear demister/wiper (which I guess I would have to live without). And for that I would need to spend 1.6 Lacs extra for the GX over and above the 11.3 lac OTR for the G. The Safari EX on the other hand, with a lot more kit than even the Innova GX, would still be less than 10.5 lacs OTR for me.

[samm]

Originally Posted by ebonho

Thanks for your help guys! Really appreciate it.

After back to back TDs of the Xylo and the Innova, my wife and girls liked the refinement of the Innova, while my son and I liked the slightly better pickup (somehow the Innova just didn't have the rollon pull uphill in 2nd gear start stop traffic) and the ruggedness (height/size/feel) of the Xylo as well as its space/third row.

You are going through the same thought process I went through over the whole of 2010, and part of 2011 (waited for Aria!). The result was I lost 1Lac in the process. Innova price increased gradually, 20K-25K every three months. I ended up with exactly the same car at a much higher price.

You simply have no choice. The only option is Innova, if you have 11Lac budget. Xylo is excellent value for money, but you will have serious drawbacks - apart from bounciness, poor plastic quality, etc, the 3rd row is not split, and boot space is non existent. so, either 5 can travel with luggage or 8 can travel with ZERO luggage!

With Innova, you can have even 6 travel with all luggage with the 3rd row split. BIG advantage for long trips.

For A/c, you will need to fix the after market for the G model. Costs less than 20K in Bangalore. You can see that in this forum.

One more thing I want to highlight -
I test drove Xylo twice, and in one of the vehicles I saw the odo at 17000km but it drove like a 1Lac km car. While the Innova I drove felt like brand new, and the odo was showing 75000Km! That car drives even better than my brand new Innova! So, it becomes better with more km in odo ! .

Then the comfort is unmatched.

Power - reasonably good, but if you want more power (20% additional BHP and torque), go for Petes (30K), which is proven beyond doubt for its reliability and performance. Your car will be a sprint queen.

Actually, this fixed the deal and cleared any confusion I had on which car to buy.
Unfortunately or unfortunately, I didnt get G model, and had to go for GX model with another 1.5Lac more. But then I saved 25K on price hike (if I had waited till April 2011 for G model) and 20K on A/c, so the nett addition was 1L for GX.

The difference of about 2-3L between Xylo and Innova can be easily made up on your resale. Again, from experience of my friends you actually dont need ABS in Innova, the car wont lose its stance and will stop in straight line almost everytime on jamming of brakes.