[imp!]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

I have done quite some research on this topic and while the new Fortuner too continues to be reasonably bumpy, Red Rooster Performance tells me that changing its suspension to TEIN, which costs around 85k INR for the basic version with a 2 year warranty, significantly improves it.
Nandi Toyota apparently has a vehicle belonging to its director fitted with it and I have requested them to let me know if a TD of the same is possible.

By the way, have you driven the Pajero Sport? It is supremely comfortable.

Hey Dev,

I did hear about the TEIN upgrade, however wont it negate the warranty? We had test driven the Paj a few months ago ( I think back when I was waiting your verdict on the vehicle!!) , however Mitsubishi has behaved in quite a terrible manner with us a week or two ago. They confirmied a test drive appointment and then did not honour it, not even bothering to call and inform us about their change in plans. They then called us a few days later, asking us what we had decided about the car, when the situation was explained to them, the rep claimed the car was tied up at another test drive.
This behavior has effectively put us off the car, the decision is now between the Fluidic Santa Fe and the Fortuner (I know soft roader vs off roader etc) . Do you expect to see the Santa Fe any time soon? Just purely from a depreciation point of view the Fortuner may make more sense. We are test driving the current Santa Fe this Saturday.

Incidentally what on Earth has happened to the SUV prices? On a lark we thought about considering softroaders like the Q5 3.0 or ML 350 (given the high cost of the Toyota and Hyundai, we may have been willing to stretch our budget) but all these are in the 70+ bracket with no discounts, I understand that the rich in our country are rich enough to shell out this kind of money for these types of cars, but when did common sense go out the door? The E,5,A6 which are much better vehicles are less expensive for petes sake.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by imp!

Hey Dev,
I did hear about the TEIN upgrade, however wont it negate the warranty?

Well, Nandi have fitted it on a few vehicles and hence I assume that the warranty bit can be worked out. Though I need to confirm it on totality.

Originally Posted by imp!

however Mitsubishi has behaved in quite a terrible manner with us a week or two ago. They confirmied a test drive appointment and then did not honour it, not even bothering to call and inform us about their change in plans.

That is surprising knowing how down to the earth the proprietor is. I know him and his son personally and both of them are amongst the most down to earth gentlemen I ve met in this industry.

Originally Posted by imp!

Do you expect to see the Santa Fe any time soon? Just purely from a depreciation point of view the Fortuner may make more sense. We are test driving the current Santa Fe this Saturday.

The new Santa Fe will take it time since Hyundai has other critical launches lined up.

I have driven the current Santa Fe and there are two things that do not appeal to me apart from the AWD Vs 4WD aspect:
1. The 2.2 litre engine, while being very potent on paper, makes its small size very evident, especially in low to medium speeds within the city and at lower gears on the highway.
2. I do not like its styling at all. In fact, there are very few Hyundais which appeal to me in terms of styling.

Originally Posted by imp!

Incidentally what on Earth has happened to the SUV prices? On a lark we thought about considering softroaders like the Q5 3.0 or ML 350 (given the high cost of the Toyota and Hyundai, we may have been willing to stretch our budget) but all these are in the 70+ bracket with no discounts

It is the INR Vs USD equation which has hiked the costs of all these vehicles so badly.

Originally Posted by imp!

The E,5,A6 which are much better vehicles are less expensive for petes sake.

Certainly, I completely agree with you.

[imp!]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Well, Nandi have fitted it on a few vehicles and hence I assume that the warranty bit can be worked out. Though I need to confirm it on totality.

.

This is an interesting development indeed! Do let me know after your test drive, I will also try and make inquiries in the mean time!

Originally Posted by n.devdath

That is surprising knowing how down to the earth the proprietor is. I know him and his son personally and both of them are amongst the most down to earth gentlemen I ve met in this industry.

.

Maybe it was just an honest mistake, I do know another dealer consortium where the father is very humble and down to earth, but his son, my friend, well the less said the better. I had stared thinking it was a common trait!

Originally Posted by n.devdath

The new Santa Fe will take it time since Hyundai has other critical launches lined up.

I have driven the current Santa Fe and there are two things that do not appeal to me apart from the AWD Vs 4WD aspect:
1. The 2.2 litre engine, while being very potent on paper, makes its small size very evident, especially in low to medium speeds within the city and at lower gears on the highway.
2. I do not like its styling at all. In fact, there are very few Hyundais which appeal to me in terms of styling.

.

This is much food for thought. With the kind of torque this car offers, it seems very strange for it to behave this way. It is primarily due to fortuner ride quality that we are considering the Santa Fe. I too am a bigger fan if understated class. I much prefer the Laura and Jetta to Cruze or Elantra. It's clean lines and build quality over fancy (way cool to have I must say!) features. I saw your PM, will talk to the heads of family and get back to you. If only the Storme were more reliable, but if wishes were horses...

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by imp!

This is much food for thought. With the kind of torque this car offers, it seems very strange for it to behave this way. It is primarily due to fortuner ride quality that we are considering the Santa Fe.

Precisely my biggest grouse with the Toyota as well.

Originally Posted by imp!

I too am a bigger fan if understated class. I much prefer the Laura and Jetta to Cruze or Elantra. It's clean lines and build quality over fancy (way cool to have I must say!) features.

Same here, however, the Santa Fe, to me, doesn't look understated, it looks quirky, like most other Hyundais. It looks like it is trying too hard. Look at those tail lamps, that bulging tail gate handle, the mixed up front and even those "diet" alloys...

Originally Posted by imp!

If only the Storme were more reliable, but if wishes were horses.

The Storme is one vehicle which holds a lot of promise. You see, apart from one person having an alignment issue, one person having had his headlights fogged up and most/all of them having squeaking seats, scuffed gear levers and few rattles here and there, the vehicle seems good.

My grouse: I have TDed 4 Stormes till date, with none of them having exceeded 10k kms on their odo and all of them felt different to drive, too different.

But as far as basic reliability is concerned, I haven't yet seen any major issues with the Storme, which is why I am still observing it closely.

[Fortuner71]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

The Storme is one vehicle which holds a lot of promise. You see, apart from one person having an alignment issue, one person having had his headlights fogged up and most/all of them having squeaking seats, scuffed gear levers and few rattles here and there, the vehicle seems good.

My grouse: I have TDed 4 Stormes till date, with none of them having exceeded 10k kms on their odo and all of them felt different to drive, too different.

But as far as basic reliability is concerned, I haven't yet seen any major issues with the Storme, which is why I am still observing it closely.

Hi my storme has done 13K and i have no issues till date , its been rock solid and i do about 600-750kms a week .

[imp!]

[quote=n.devdath;3202383]Precisely my biggest grouse with the Toyota as well.

Same here, however, the Santa Fe, to me, doesn't look understated, it looks quirky, like most other Hyundais. It looks like it is trying too hard. Look at those tail lamps, that bulging tail gate handle, the mixed up front and even those "diet" alloys...
/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you say, and yet, it may just be the best soft roader south of 50 lacs, even taking the Innova, Aria and XUV500 into account.

Originally Posted by n.devdath

The Storme is one vehicle which holds a lot of promise. You see, apart from one person having an alignment issue, one person having had his headlights fogged up and most/all of them having squeaking seats, scuffed gear levers and few rattles here and there, the vehicle seems good.

My grouse: I have TDed 4 Stormes till date, with none of them having exceeded 10k kms on their odo and all of them felt different to drive, too different.

But as far as basic reliability is concerned, I haven't yet seen any major issues with the Storme, which is why I am still observing it closely.

So consistency is certainly a problem, however, I am unwilling to live with squeaks and rattles on an SUV that will set me back almost 20 lacs on road in Bangalore, even if your driving experience with the car hadn't been so interesting. I suspect this is one car I'd only consider after a couple of years of launch, and perhaps not even then. We had an Indigo that stranded my father 3 times on the highway, not to mention a one or two turbo blow outs in the first 6 months of ownership. We sold it 3-4 days before Tata dropped the price by Rs 40,000; so convincing him for another Tata will be more trouble than it is worth. strange story, the salesman of that Indigo is now a manager at a certain Toyota dealership and is trying to sell the Fortuner to us!! Strange how a lapsed relationship from almost a decade ago can be re established so well. He jokes by promising us a very different ownership experience from the Indigo

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by imp!

I agree with everything you say, and yet, it may just be the best soft roader south of 50 lacs, even taking the Innova, Aria and XUV500 into account.

And why do you think so? It would be interesting to know.

Originally Posted by imp!

So consistency is certainly a problem, however, I am unwilling to live with squeaks and rattles on an SUV that will set me back almost 20 lacs on road in Bangalore, even if your driving experience with the car hadn't been so interesting.

Well, the Tatas and Mahindras do squeak and will rattle, more often than not. In fact, the world over, it is only the Mitsubishis and Toyotas that are known to hold themselves the best, over a long time. There must be something in them, somewhere.
For me, the biggest downer is the price of a new Fortuner and the Pajero Sport. I continue to maintain that they are simply not worth 30 lacs INR.

Originally Posted by imp!

I suspect this is one car I'd only consider after a couple of years of launch, and perhaps not even then. We had an Indigo that stranded my father 3 times on the highway, not to mention a one or two turbo blow outs in the first 6 months of ownership.

I know it is hard to come back to a brand after such a bad ownership experience.

However, believe me when I say it that Tata Motors is changing, big time, at all levels.

Moreover, the Storme has a 4year/1,50,000kms warranty and an AMC as well.

Initial owners have not reported any serious faults.

It a far better 5 seater than the Fortuner, Pajero Sport or even the Santa Fe in terms of space, ergonomics and comfort.

It is far more comfortable on the road and off it than the Fortuner and the Santa Fe.

It is formidable off road and any damage will be comparatively affordable to repair/replace.

Usually broken stuff in city traffic like ORVMs, indicators, headlights, plastic parts etc will be far cheaper than the imports.

Finally, the buyer will save INR 10 lac. That is 1 followed by SEVEN zeroes. A lot of money to do some DIY to take care of the squeaks and rattles that Tata Motors has forgotten to...!!!

[imp!]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

And why do you think so? It would be interesting to know.

So here is my take on this

1) Innova was and remains grossly under powered, after tweaking the maps for effeciency, it has become more so. In addition to this the car has become very old and is in desperate need of a revamp. Take into account the 18 lac price and the car is as over priced as the Fortuner, Paj Sport and virtually every other SUV/MUV on the market

2) With regards to the Aria and the XUV500, there is the matter of pricing, quality of some materials used, iffy fit and finish but most importantly those quirks and niggles that do not allow for a hassle free ownership experience, which, I think is essential from workhorse vehicles such as these, and this does not even take into account the current price structure. Perhaps with the XUV's lowered body for tax purposes things may change

3) When one looks at the Paj Sport and Fortuner, what you get essentially are 4 seaters (not counting 3rd row) which are low on lumbar and thigh support which make them unfriendly long distance tourers. For families. They also cost a pretty penny and there is no justification for the prices. I can understand them being 25 lac on-road, not 30.

4) The Santa Fe is just as over priced and its as big a depreciation disaster as the Arias and Paj Sports of the world, however, as a softroader, it offers the best fit, finish and quality of materials used. The thigh support and Lumbar support is also superior to the others (this really is a big deal for cars that see long distances) in addition to which 5 people can fit into the front two rows with relative ease and comfort. A friend has put his through some rough use, the car has done 50,000 kms in 8 odd months (No, it is not a typo and it is not a taxi); Not one thing has gone wrong with the car, not one squeak or rattle has crept up, infact it has held up much better than his Innova had. I don't like the styling one bit either, but with 95% usage, luxury and comfort in mind, it offers the best of the lot, albeit at an inflated price.

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Well, the Tatas and Mahindras do squeak and will rattle, more often than not. In fact, the world over, it is only the Mitsubishis and Toyotas that are known to hold themselves the best, over a long time. There must be something in them, somewhere.
For me, the biggest downer is the price of a new Fortuner and the Pajero Sport. I continue to maintain that they are simply not worth 30 lacs INR.

It has been my personal experience that nothing beats a Subaru for miles and miles and miles of no nonsense trouble free driving. Not even a Toyota or Mitsu. I wish those were sold in India, they would be perfect for our conditions and usage! In any case, it is the smaller things that keep me away from Tata and Mahindra. At the prices they charge for their premium offerings, such niggles are just simply not acceptable to me.

Originally Posted by n.devdath

I know it is hard to come back to a brand after such a bad ownership experience.

Initial owners have not reported any serious faults.

Finally, the buyer will save INR 10 lac. That is 1 followed by SEVEN zeroes. A lot of money to do some DIY to take care of the squeaks and rattles that Tata Motors has forgotten to...!!!

You are correct, it is difficult to consider given our past experience, the car is superb in terms of comfort, but, taken by itself, 20 lacs is a lot of money, may be less than the other offerings, but it still is a serious chunk of dough. Do I want to have to solve or be willing to live with small niggles? Not at that price point I don't; I'd rather buy the Toyota, with the certain knowledge that I will lose less money when I go to sell it and if I do decide to run the car into the ground, then I can expect the Toyota to age more gracefully as well.


I would also like to add a word about the Mitsubishi situation.

1) I apologize to all parties concerned, there was some mis-communication. What actually happened was the test drive was confirmed for 6:00 pm; the sales rep called my father and told him that the car was busy with another test drive since 1:30 pm and he won't be able to come for our test drive.

2) Member Dev here got in touch with me and put me contact with Mr Prasad, proprietor of SVR Motors. This gentleman, was very forthcoming and apologetic about the situation. We had a very enjoyable discussion and the car will be coming to my place for a test drive on Sunday morning. After the attitude of various dealerships that many of us have experienced, he does make for a breath of fresh air. He has requested me to put up his number on the forum so that anyone needing his assistance can get in touch directly. Many thanks to both Mr Prasad and Dev for making my purchase making decision more enjoyable.

Mr Prasad, Proprietor SVR Motors +91 9731555222


I will keep this thread updated!

kind regards

imp!

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by Parm

Of the above mentioned two vehicles, a new Storme 4WD or an used Fortuner, which one fits more VFM in terms of technicalities, capabilities and maintenance.

Both of us are in the same boat, completely...!!!!

Though I tend to agree with most people about a pre owned Fortuner being better than the Storme as a purchase proposition, it simply cannot beat the Storme in ride quality, space and ergonomics.

[zulfi hansi]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

Though I tend to agree with most people about a pre owned Fortuner being better than the Storme as a purchase proposition, it simply cannot beat the Storme in ride quality, space and ergonomics.

So does that mean the Scorpio 4x4 is out of the race?

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by zulfi hansi

So does that mean the Scorpio 4x4 is out of the race?

Yes, for various reasons:

1. The Storme has better and spacious interiors.
2. The Storme has more power and torque.
3. The Storme has a better ride quality.
4. The Storme has proven reasonably reliable for now amongst most owners.

Further, while Hariya has been exceptionally reliable and continues to be so, I hear quite a few issues with the newer 2.2 owners in terms of the electricals, mechanicals and build issues cropping up.

[zulfi hansi]

@devdath: I hope you mean 22 lac INR - OTR Bangalore, otherwise you will need to add 5 L more to it.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by zulfi hansi

@devdath: I hope you mean 22 lac INR - OTR Bangalore, otherwise you will need to add 5 L more to it.

Yes, you are right. I meant 22 lac OTR Bangalore.

[k_nitin_r]

Originally Posted by imp!

The Santa Fe has done 50,000 kms in 8 odd months (No, it is not a typo and it is not a taxi); Not one thing has gone wrong with the car, not one squeak or rattle has crept up, infact it has held up much better than his Innova had.

In the past decade, Korean automotive manufacturers have been doing quite a bit of catching up. I had a management case study on Hyundai - its products were generally considered inferior in quality so to make their products attractive, they offered a longer warranty period on all their vehicles to make up for it. Whenever a customer came to the workshop, the defect would be recorded and all of this information would be collected to identify possible design flaws from repeated defect reports against the same parts. They would then use this information to improve their designs and address quality issues. I'm sure most automotive manufacturers do this, except for the obvious ones in our Indian market - I won't mention brand names, but people who are regulars on the forum would recognize these: the engine-oil-consuming national taxi, the off-roaders of the same brand, and those taxis that are all too common in Kolkata.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by k_nitin_r

In the past decade, Korean automotive manufacturers have been doing quite a bit of catching up.

While the Koreans have improved upon their products vastly in terms of their technical competence, their SUVs do not appeal to a lot of customers primarily because of their generally quirky styling and the lack of a premium image about the brand.

This explains the absymally low sales figures of the Santa Fe in India.