[kaizanfan]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Slightly off topic but I was wondering what kind of profit is Toyota making on each Fortuner sold? Its priced at 27L OTR in Delhi and is a CKD with almost negligible premium/luxury interiors and features. On the other hand one can have a Volvo V40 which is a CBU, is loaded with almost all features known to man today and then some and Volvo still manages to price it at 28.5L ex showroom and is willing to offer discounts too. My guess is it would be not more than 30-31L OTR Delhi. Mind boggling margins in case of Toyota here.

A friend of mine who works in Volvo mentioned that Volvo cars are made by a chinese company. The preimium/luxury features are tempting, but they may not be as reliable as the ones on Honda/Toyota.

Regarding profits, if a company makes huge profits over a very long period of time it usually means that:
- the customers are happy with their products
- the quality of their products is good
- their products are backed by excellent A.S.S
- their products consists of the features that the customer really wants
- the maintenance cost of their products is lower
- the company is following lean methodology

Originally Posted by roadjourno

Thats a good information. By the way the price of new fortuner has gone up again by 1% since start of this moth :(
I wonder if it will ever come down.
No discounts. Nothing.. Makes the good used fortuner perhaps cheaper by 30 - 40% so mouthwatering. The only question is finding one is so demanding
Since 6 months havent been able to find a decent one still. Search and Game on still. Should anyone reading this come across any fortuner 4*4 post 2011 model in either mp or mh, please send me a private measage.

In Bangalore you might be able to get the Fortuner at pre-September price. You got to hurry. Nandi Toyota might be able to offer you older price since they usually have a larger stock of cars.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by roadjourno

Thats a good information. By the way the price of new fortuner has gone up again by 1% since start of this moth :(
I wonder if it will ever come down.

Are you sure about that? The price list on there website still shows the same prices that I got last month from them.

[roadjourno]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Are you sure about that? The price list on there website still shows the same prices that I got last month from them.

Yes, that is correct information. I saw that it had increased by 23000 approx.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Are you sure about that? The price list on there website still shows the same prices that I got last month from them.

Yes, you can confirm from your side

MH PriceList I got

MH Prices - FB4x4MT=2317917 Aug

MH Prices - FB4x4MT=2341916 Oct

Br,

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by kaizanfan

A friend of mine who works in Volvo mentioned that Volvo cars are made by a chinese company. The preimium/luxury features are tempting, but they may not be as reliable as the ones on Honda/Toyota.

Chinese company – yes, similar to how Jaguar/Land Rover is made by an Indian company.

[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by kaizanfan

A friend of mine who works in Volvo mentioned that Volvo cars are made by a chinese company. The preimium/luxury features are tempting, but they may not be as reliable as the ones on Honda/Toyota.

Volvo or Volvolee as it is called now is owned by a chinese company, but I think all the current models are still designed/developed by Volvo when it was part of the Ford Premier Automotive division. But before long, I am sure you will see the Volvo Leaping Leopard SUV or the Volvo Dodang Feng Shitang Sedan.

[inwester]

I'm in the same boat as a lot of folks on this thread, what SUV/MUV to buy for 15-25 lakhs? Looking at the timeline of these vehicles makes me depressed! All of them were launched 7-10 years back and are outdated products selling for super high premium prices without any kind of standard features (forget premium features).

Innova - 2003 to present
Fortuner - 2005 to present
Rexton - 2006 to present
Pajero - 2006 to present

Makes me think XUV 500 might be the one to buy, at least it was launched only couple of years back, priced significantly cheaper than any of the above SUVs, tons of features, plus its a domestic car and service centers would be always around.

My father thinks Innova is the way to go. This exactly is the reason why Toyota still sells a 10 year old product, with hardly any updates, for 16 lakhs rupees (higher variants). Unless customers walk away from these old products and demand more they will keep selling it. I would've bought a Hyundai Sante Fe if they had the new 2013 model available.

Should I wait in anticipation of any new launches, can wait up to 6 months? Or should I say screw it and go for another sedan? The main reason we want a new car is that my father hates Laura's ride quality.

Any advice, suggestions? Trying to make a "rational" choice here which can be tricky when it comes to buying cars (I mean we own an Optra). I've not been following the Indian auto scene very closely and any help is greatly appreciated!

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by inwester

My father thinks Innova is the way to go. This exactly is the reason why Toyota still sells a 10 year old product, with hardly any updates, for 16 lakhs rupees (higher variants). Unless customers walk away from these old products and demand more they will keep selling it. I would've bought a Hyundai Sante Fe if they had the new 2013 model available.

Should I wait in anticipation of any new launches, can wait up to 6 months? Or should I say screw it and go for another sedan? The main reason we want a new car is that my father hates Laura's ride quality.

How is any SUV's ride quality going to be better than a sedan? Also why does your father think that Innova is the right vehicle for him? Does he travel on broken roads? May be he likes the comfort of the captain seats.

I think you need to be sure about what exactly do you want and why. The Innova with captain seats might be the more comfortable than the 25L SUVs. Although a sedan will be more comfortable than all of them IMHO. Or may be you can try something like the Altis/Camry/Accord with a softer suspension which would probably be more comfortable over short city drives.

[kaizanfan]

inwester,

- The longer the life of the model the better the car. Fortuner, Innova, Pajero are all good vehicles because they've been there for a long time. Never buy a new model car from any manufacturer. For example, if Toyota completely revamps the Innova, I would not buy it. It takes about 3 years for the all the issues to be fixed and refinements (kaizan) to be incorporated. The 3rd year model is usually the best in case of Toyota, Honda and other japanese brands. The fact that the Fortuners and Innovas of the world are going thru bumper/grill updates only assures me that the vehicle continues to be as best as it has been.

- You should write down your requirements. I would write down the top four requirements, then short list the cars that you think may satisfy those requirements, then do exhaustive TDs, then finally book the car of your choice.

[hkollar]

Originally Posted by inwester

My father thinks Innova is the way to go. This exactly is the reason why Toyota still sells a 10 year old product, with hardly any updates, for 16 lakhs rupees (higher variants). Unless customers walk away from these old products and demand more they will keep selling it. I would've bought a Hyundai Sante Fe if they had the new 2013 model available.

Age brings wisdom!

We have had Innova, Fortuner, Scorpio, XUV and Ertiga (other than smaller cars) in our close family. Having driven them all in city & highways, I can confidently say Innova has the best balance of power, comfort, Drivability, utility and reliability of them all.

The reason Toyota didn't need to change it is because you don't fix something that ain't broken. Does XUV have better tech? Not really, it just has more 'features'. The only comparably high-quality engine in sub 15lakh vehicles is that of Ertiga. But, Ertiga is tad underpowered with turbo lag. And it isn't as comfy as Innova.

The only thing that always went against Innova - its looks. It is staid and looks dated.

But, as old/middle-aged men will tell you - Looks don't matter after a while.



Fortuner will be an expensive mistake. Only thing you'll get out of it - Snob value.

Having said all that, I do think Toyota should upgrade Innova to make it look a bit more contemporary and plonk an engine that is a bit more silent & fuel efficient.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

How is any SUV's ride quality going to be better than a sedan?

Typically a sedan has better handling, less roll.

But, For me, In India ride quality means how well a vehicle can handle a bad or non-existent roads.

Our roads are full of bumps and pot holes. Sedans have tougher time dealing with these.

In Bangalore, we have about 6 month rainy season! i.e. We have rains starting in June going on till about December. The roads are in perpetually bad condition in this time.

It is almost like doing off-road in most of city streets during this time. SUVs handle this well.

Originally Posted by eq24

I am not sure of the exact profits but Toyota makes almost 100% in margins. For a 27 lak car after you factor in excise and other taxes borne by he company and dealer margins and transport, say around 4 to 5 lakh. So Toyota should have a final sell cost of about 22 but their actual cost of manufacture considering that this is a completely depreciated platform and economies of scale in the Fortuner Innova and Hilux, I would say Toyota is not spending more than 9 to 10 for complete manufacture. But this is not India only even if you check out Thailand or Malaysia the Fortuner is priced at par with India.

100% markup over manufacturing cost is normal in most manufactured goods. Your mobile phone, laptop, fridge etc. would cost 50-70% less to manufacture. This is so, because the company needs to assume so many expenses - like R&D, product write-off risks, recall risk, cost of operations etc. In the end, if a company only made 30-50% margins, then one of these events can push a company to bankruptcy.

A good way to check value for money of any car is to compare the cost of the car in the US market. US is the most mature car market in the world and people can't get away overpricing in any segment. In comparing - There will be subtle differences in volume and power ofcourse, but as an indicator this works well.

Toyota's equivalent to Fortuner (4runner) retails in USA for about US$33,000/-. The Equivalent of Innova (Sienna) sells for about US$27,000. A difference of US$6,000!!

In India, the difference between these two huge. It is almost double the price.

At About Rs.15-17lakhs OTR Innova is priced same as in USA (though US Sienna is automatic).

At about Rs.29lakhs, Fortuner is priced approximately 50% more than USA!!

Fortuner is certainly overpriced, while Innova is value for money.

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[eq24]

Originally Posted by hkollar

100% markup over manufacturing cost is normal in most manufactured goods. Your mobile phone, laptop, fridge etc. would cost 50-70% less to manufacture. This is so, because the company needs to assume so many expenses - like R&D, product write-off risks, recall risk, cost of operations etc. In the end, if a company only made 30-50% margins, then one of these events can push a company to bankruptcy.

A good way to check value for money of any car is to compare the cost of the car in the US market. US is the most mature car market in the world and people can't get away overpricing in any segment. In comparing - There will be subtle differences in volume and power ofcourse, but as an indicator this works well.

Toyota's equivalent to Fortuner (4runner) retails in USA for about US$33,000/-. The Equivalent of Innova (Sienna) sells for about US$27,000. A difference of US$6,000!!

In India, the difference between these two huge. It is almost double the price.

At About Rs.15-17lakhs OTR Innova is priced same as in USA (though US Sienna is automatic).

At about Rs.29lakhs, Fortuner is priced approximately 50% more than USA!!

Fortuner is certainly overpriced, while Innova is value for money.

Well it is a good way to check pricing vis a vis the USA but it is not an entirely accurate metric. First and foremost the Cars in USA are predominantly Petrol where as the Innova and the Fortuner are both Diesel, so expense of manufacture will be higher.
While the above is kept in mind also note in terms of quality and fit and finish and the things offered in US cars are much more than in their Indian counterparts so the price might equate in the bigger picture.

Another thing is that Toyota enjoys a monopoly in India in both these segments something they do not enjoy in the US, We simply have no proper competitor to either the Fortuner or the Innova, there are cars which come close but none offer the exact or better package.

This will continue till one of two things happen,
1) The Indian customers mature and appreciate the value of their money and demand in proportion to the cost.
2) We become a major Petrol user like the rest of the world, I think all the Americas, China, Japan are all predominant Petrol users and only the European Continent and India has a diesel bias. If we do become net Petrol users, all the major players can bring their cars to India without too many development costs incurred.

Another thing which really baffles me is that most cars in USA and even UK are cheaper than their Indian counterparts and I am not talking of imports even domestically manufactured cars are more expensive here than in the developed world.

[Dieseldunk]

Hi Folks/gurus my 2 paise (not cents anymore) on this topic.
I just voted for the XUV and reasons are as below

M&M is in a continous mode of try,test and do. Scorpio still has a value and road presence. The XUV gears and ride feel and comfort have moved up by sa couple of notches. NO doubts on toyotaR&D but we have to give credit to M&M too.
Fortuner seems to reaping overdue profits on the brand image.
The XUV looks and feels more of a sturdy SUV.
IMHO XUV will start ruling the roost in short while and for a long time.

Cheers
Prasad

I voted for XUV500 as I find it is better than my Linea in superb engine power, bone-chilling ACC, excellent in-cabin comfort, ride quality, almost nil turbo lag, etc. I have almost decided in its favour for my next upgrade. Of course, I have not test-driven T Fortuner, as it is well beyond my budget.

[Ashish Mahajan]

Hi,

I voted for XUV 500 because:

1. I own an XUV 500 and have gone through this dilema of whether to buy an XUV 500 or go for fortuner. I decided on XUV because of it its VFM. Cheaper by almost 10 Lacs and whole lot of improvement by M&M in its build quality.

2. The look of XUV is very macho and fits the look of an aggressive SUV

3. The ride quality whether on highway or in town of XUV is better than fortuner. Its not bumpy.

4. The features in an XUV are very inviting and user friendly.

[avisidhu]

Originally Posted by kaizanfan

For example, if Toyota completely revamps the Innova, I would not buy it. It takes about 3 years for the all the issues to be fixed and refinements (kaizan) to be incorporated. The 3rd year model is usually the best in case of Toyota, Honda and other japanese brands.

This is the first time I'm hearing such a statement about Toyota and Honda. Mind explaining it? From what I know, they do iron out pretty much every small niggle before launching a vehicle (unlike say, Tata or Mahindra).

[drmohitg]

So my first interaction with the big mighty Germans happened yesterday. Went to check Mercedes first and then the BMW. Volvo and then TD for all will be done today. The Mercedes showroom at Rajouri Garden ( T&T motors) has newly opened up and I was actually impressed with the overall showroom outlay. Looked and felt premium in all ways and specially the cars with there LEDs on made the whole aura inside the showroom mesmerizing.
The C class looked and felt good, however a little cramped from the inside according to me. What I was disappointed was that there was absolutely no effort from the SA to sell the car. I didn't need his help per se since I and member Sameer who accompanied me, were well versed with the features etc. But sort of felt really let down as the SA didn't show us the features of the car etc specially when I mentioned to him as to how my buying decision suddenly shifted to the Trio from the Fortuner.
Anyways having said that the car didn't appeal to me that much, starting from the exterior looks. One good thing was that it comes with a full size Alloy spare wheel and the Mercedes star Ease programme is exactly similar to the BSI. Discount offered was 3.3L + 70k insurance free if I take finance from them. Otherwise the discount is 2.2L. This is on the Avant Garde trim ( god knows how do you pronounce that). The other trim had a 2.5L off on it and apparently the only difference between the two is Sunroof, Parking sensors and alloy design. Again the SA appeared disinterested in giving me an exact feature wise tour of both the models. The Avant garde trim after the discount comes to 37L OTR delhi. To my surprise my friend just managed to get the same trim from Chandigarh a month ago for 32L OTR with HR registration. Unable to understand the deal here. Have asked him for his SA's number and would talk to him.

So after a not so encouraging start, I went to BMW. The showroom set up is much smaller but the SA's response was better than the snobbish mercedes dealership. He explained me the features, tried to interact with my father ( who will talk to you more about the practical aspects of owning the BMW and not care much about features) that I appreciated while myself and Sameer checked out the car. I absolutely loved the 3 series. To me the dash layout looked better than the C class. The space in the back is surely more than the C, the front seats were more comfy and the steering was more good to hold. Quality wise I think both were pretty much similar although again I prefer BMW's layout of the Arm rest and space surrounding it in the front. Once again there has been no mail from them about the quotation etc even though I left my mail Id with the SA and he promised to mail me. Maybe it will arrive today.

So thats about it. Today going to check out Volvo and also meet up with member Sunny and TD his new 320D .
Overall a tad bit disappointed from Mercedes. As a layman, we have no idea what features the car has, all the magic tricks etc, even after visiting the dealership with the intention to buy the car. The experience of evaluating a new car gets really sour when the SA tells you " Sir this is the mercedes C class and it will cost you 41L OTR". Come on! Atleast show me the car in and out and then the price should be the last thing that should follow unless asked by the customer. This after the fact that they would not be getting more than 20 people probably in a day to see there cars. In exchange a humble Maruti salesman will spend more time in selling his 3L Rs Alto. May be they only deal with clientele dressed in Armani suits and stepping out of Luxury cars and not a humble Nissan sunny! The little bit of interest from there side, and even Sameer commented on the same that now he appears to be in a mood to sell the car, cropped up only in the end when I gave him my Email ID and he got to know that I am a Doctor. Hilarious to say the least.