[Turbojet]

Originally Posted by udhaw

Many friends have complained about ergonomic and Knee rubbing on center console in Tata Harrier. Maybe they are way taller than me because I don't find this to be an issue at all. And for the reference I am 183 cm tall.
Last week, I completed a 3200km trip in my Harrier and whilst returning from Kolkata I drove the car non-stop for 973km with just two breaks of filling in the diesel and a quick tea break somewhere near Prayagraj. I have three bulging disks and I never felt strain on my lower back. I have XZA+ variant and there definitely are some issues with the car, which I don't like. For example, the headlights are useless and I'm going to replace them. The brakes could have been a bit better but the car overall is wonderful for the 23lac.
I have driven MG Hector and I disliked it as the suspensions reminded me of my Verna. The Jeep is any day better than Harrier but the one I liked came 32+lac on road. Another aspect was the Jeep's cabin is not as spacious as Harrier.

I am about as tall as you and my knee does rub against the dashboard. Recently I took a test drive of harrier and ended up back pai . The ergonomics are faulty as I couldn't find a comfortable driving position even after two test drives and multiple adjustments.

[udhaw]

Originally Posted by Turbojet

I am about as tall as you and my knee does rub against the dashboard. Recently I took a test drive of harrier and ended up back pai . The ergonomics are faulty as I couldn't find a comfortable driving position even after two test drives and multiple adjustments.

Ergonomics are NOT faulty. Knee doesn't rub until one is 6 feet 4 or above. And even then the seat retracts enough for the knee room.

[Turbojet]

Originally Posted by udhaw

Ergonomics are NOT faulty. Knee doesn't rub until one is 6 feet 4 or above. And even then the seat retracts enough for the knee room.

It actually depends upon how easily one is able to achieve a comfortable seating position . Sales executive told me that a lot of people have this issue and all of them are not 6-4 which means its a design flaw.

[udhaw]

I just created a video. You can have a look.

https://youtu.be/-OH4Btra7RA

Originally Posted by Turbojet

It actually depends upon how easily one is able to achieve a comfortable seating position . Sales executive told me that a lot of people have this issue and all of them are not 6-4 which means its a design flaw.

[Turbojet]

Originally Posted by udhaw

I just created a video. You can have a look.

https://Youtu.be/-OH4Btra7RA

Thanks for creating the video. Comfortable seating positions are different for different people so while it may not happen for you, its an issue for others like myself.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by udhaw

- Last week, I completed a 3200km trip in my Harrier and whilst returning from Kolkata I drove the car non-stop for 973km with just two breaks of filling in the diesel and a quick tea break somewhere near Prayagraj. I have three bulging disks and I never felt strain on my lower back.

- I have driven MG Hector and I disliked it as the suspensions reminded me of my Verna. The Jeep is any day better than Harrier but the one I liked came 32+lac on road. Another aspect was the Jeep's cabin is not as spacious as Harrier.

Quite a distance, mate; must've been enjoyable. Based only on the test drives (notwithstanding some issue), I too thought that the Harrier would be the pick for highway drives. In fact, I thought it might be even better suited than the Compass for that purpose. I imagine it being less tiring partly owing to that big-car feel it has.

How does the NVH feel? Since you come from a Verna, which is quite good on NVH (iirc), and you've spent several hours at a go in the Harrier, you'd be in a good position to know.

Originally Posted by udhaw

Many friends have complained about ergonomic and Knee rubbing on center console in Tata Harrier. Maybe they are way taller than me because I don't find this to be an issue at all. And for the reference I am 183 cm tall.

Originally Posted by udhaw

Ergonomics are NOT faulty. Knee doesn't rub until one is 6 feet 4 or above. And even then the seat retracts enough for the knee room.

Originally Posted by Turbojet

I am about as tall as you and my knee does rub against the dashboard. Recently I took a test drive of harrier and ended up back pai . The ergonomics are faulty as I couldn't find a comfortable driving position even after two test drives and multiple adjustments.

Originally Posted by udhaw

I just created a video. You can have a look.

@udhaw, @Turbojet and me are about the same height yet experienced it differently, with udhaw having the longest time with the vehicle. Yet reaffirms what I've often said:

Originally Posted by Poitive

We experience cars differently.

and encourage all to take their own TDs and feel things for themselves.



I appreciate you making the effort of creating the video, udhaw.

The different experience could be due to a few factors:

- With the same height further proportions of the body could be different. Some talk about that in the discussion between @shancz and me above.

- One might notice that how people sit on a (especially driver's) seat differs. Some tend to keep their legs quite straight and sit with more of a closed leg stance. I presume them having lesser issues with the knee-console issue. There are others like me who sit with a wider stance, with knees more apart while driving. They are more likely to have this issue.

- It also depends a bit on where one keeps one's heels while driving. Different natural positions would influence the direction of movement of the leg.

- Besides height, and how the height is distributed between the upper and lower part of the body; even with the same proportions, a person who is more heavily built will have a greater distance from the part which touches the seat to the knee. That too can bring differences.

- Simply keeping the seat further away from the console was tried by me. As mentioned in the Safari and Compass TDs, it causes the issue of the pedals feeling unnaturally far. One can drive such, but it isn't comfortable.

- It is not just about being taller: In fact, a much taller person just might have lesser of an issue as the seat would be kept further away taking the knee outside the console area, and not just under it. I guess it is people within a certain minimum-maximum leg length and sitting manner (wide kneed or close kneed) who would face the issue.

I presume this is not such a small percentage. Many have complained about it.

Originally Posted by Turbojet

...Sales executive told me that a lot of people have this issue and all of them are not 6-4 which means its a design flaw.

When I took the Safari TD, the SA was with a new colleague, and to explain my apprehension to him, he only had to say something like "sir is having that knee issue" and was talked about like a well-known common issue. There was no mention of height.

PS: Besides the knee issue, I also had some issues with the width of the effective seat (from armrest to armrest) being a bit too wide. (reported in the TD)

[Poitive]

Alert: Some parts might be seen as somewhat OT.

Originally Posted by Poitive

PPS: @shancz: your lovely post needs due time and attention to reply and shall do so soon.

Originally Posted by shancz

- That effort was extraordinarily detailed and covered what everyone else had missed apparently.
- I learnt so much about how to take a proper TD.

- Thanks mate.
- In my earlier innings had thought of starting a thread on taking effective Test Drives. Might do so now, when time and mood allow.

- You can start a thread discussing the faults/flaws in other people/products/brands and you'll get way more popularity.

- Without digressing further I would say that the measure of popularity is not a measure of quality/knowledge/effort.
So, don't bother with it, your analysis is top notch

- I could write a few articles on that, but a discussion on sociology wouldn't be for this forum.

- That is the story of my life!

Also replying takes time, especially on a phone, the equivalent of crouching and adjusting you feel in the cars I feel while typing on the phone so the replies get delayed as this thread needs time to think and reply.

I feel so too, and that is one reason this reply is late.

Honestly I am almost as interested as you are in which car you end up getting. This is turning out to be quite a hunt.

Thanks! Not everyone can feel involved in anther's decision as much.

Quite sad in a way, was very hopeful with the 700.
Seems like the comfort option is the Hector, the FTD is the Compass and the 700 is somewhere in between along with the Harrier.

Since comfort is a priority, I see the balance tilting towards the Hector now.

Though I try to absolutely rule out a few from the list, there is always something special about it vis-a-viz the others, and only Seltos has been removed without second thoughts. Hector stands out due to minimal near-deal-breakers, but the apprehensions I had about it while starting the thread still remain. That said, I do not see it as, as soft and unenjoyable vehicle as popular reviews make it seem. I expect it will change as one gets used to the vehicle. Other's have their own share of flaws. The XUV's Verna-like steering feel, for example.

- Nice to still have it in contention but the waiting period is also a negative now but the big question post your TD is will you be willing to wait for an update/delivery while getting a short term used car ? like you had earlier mentioned. Is the 700 special enough to be worth the wait for your case ?

- An early update might happen for the suspension but the passenger seat issue is doubtful.

You having this in mind "like you had earlier mentioned", only reaffirms how involved you are in the whole process as you'd earlier mentioned.

What makes the decision tough is how most of the cars have strong positives and negatives (XUV, also about the first 1-2 years being questionable) which makes it difficult to make a choice.

Reducing the seat height to make ingress-egress might be actually a lot simpler than suspension refinement. I am just quite unsure if either will be done soon, with as much on Mahindra's plate and the third wave of Corona looming now.

Also noticable is the incoherence in design between the front and rear but a topic for another thread so skipping it for now.

I agree. This is something which has been around longer. Had pointed this out in the old Choosing thread (Choosing a Diesel Sedan). I think about the Manza Elan. From the current breed, Creta is a 'fine' example!

- Good observation but all it denotes that times have changed and we need to adapt.

Mate, very difficult to adapt on this. Can't sandpaper my body away

S-Cross remains to be seen but I am unsure how it would be but won't recommend unnecessary TDs in light of the new variant.

I'm pretty sure the S-Cross won't make a better case of itself than the Hector, considering the 1.3 vs 2.0 litre engines.

Outside of these, used options like the Alturas G4, Tiguan might work in space but not in economy IMO.

Again, the only one without significant near-deal-breakers, the Hector, seems like a more sensible choice than spending as much more. If I were to, I would have surely considered the Tucson despite it only being AT. (btw, got an endearing PM regarding the Tucson)

I think the Captiva would have been a good replacement in your case, if Chevrolet existed.

The Captiva does exist. In India. Only as the MG Hector. It is also sold as Wuling Almaz and Bajoun 530 in different markets; though with some changes.


Pic source: Wikipedia.

I love the look of this version. The Indian MG Hector looks meek in comparison. This avatar, smashing! Had the Indian Hector looked such, the emotional appeal might have made it easier to go overlook other aspects.

Agreed, will find time to read through your earlier threads. Of the few I have read through it was quite a read, the user base was way more close knit early on and expected.

The atmosphere was much like a bunch of friends talking quite freely and helping each other take better decisions. This reminds me of something I intended and will likely form my next post.
.

[Poitive]

From now on, let this thread be open to anyone considering an SUV in this segment

(Please read below for details)

Originally Posted by Poitive

Besides my own search, the idea of the thread also is to help fellow T-Bhpians looking for similar vehicles to select based on observations and drives shared here.

Right from the first post, the idea of the thread was to collaboratively help each other in making better decisions about choosing suitable cars, and not limit it to only my decision. I think it is time to open the thread to all. I will keep discussing about my thoughts and decision process as well. Suggestions remain welcome.

To keep things on track and useful, let us try:

• Predominantly for SUV's (including urban-SUVs/soft-roaders) with a wheelbase of 2600mm to 2800mm. (Price wise: Duster/Seltos to Compass/Tucson). Diesel, Petrol, Manual, Auto - all is fine.
  .
• In case your shortlist has the odd car beyond the above, it is okay. It is not hard and fast.
  .
• If you have taken any test drives, please share your experiences with others (if you are an owner, even better!). You can make your reports as elaborate or short as you wish. It would make a good collaborative resource for everyone. Marking it as a Test Drive in the first line would help other's search it easily.
  .
• While replying to a requirement, please try to quote the member's post which you are replying to. It would help avoid confusions.

*
Instead of starting a new thread for each requirement, this could be a joint resource.
Please feel free to add your requirements

*

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Poitive

Might do so now, when time and mood allow.

Good thought, would wait for it whenever its feasible.

Originally Posted by Poitive

I am just quite unsure if either will be done soon, with as much on Mahindra's plate and the third wave of Corona looming now.

Agree, with the new Scorpio coming around and even more orders on the 700 I doubt if any hardware update will come in the next 2 years.
The seat issue unfortunately hasn't been voiced anywhere else which means its not even on the radar unless Mahindra has a direct contact/solution for issues like these which I doubt.

Originally Posted by Poitive

From the current breed, Creta is a 'fine' example!

True but the Taigun bugs me even more since its quite unlike VW's simple elegant designs. Taigun's rear reminds me of what they did to Jetta's front both apparently to attract a "certain" set of audience but ended up losing some hardcore ones. An informed business decision, hope it paid off.

Originally Posted by Poitive

Mate, very difficult to adapt on this. Can't sandpaper my body away

I didn't mean the that but the other factors which are also quite important too. The 700 with a Verna like steering is quite weird in itself. They could've given the steering feel adjust from the XUV300 which would've helped a lot.

Originally Posted by Poitive

considering the 1.3 vs 2.0 litre engines.

Not anymore, its only the 1.5 Petrol for the S-Cross since MSIL's decision to move away from diesels.

Originally Posted by Poitive

the Hector, seems like a more sensible choice than spending as much more.

Agree, that rear seat comfort is something missing on others. In your situation now it is making the strongest case for itself. Only option that we could think about is the new Scorpio but that's an unknown now. Even if it launches by Jan 2022, streamlined deliveries would only start 6 months down the line.

Originally Posted by Poitive

The Captiva does exist. In India. Only as the MG Hector.
Had the Indian Hector looked such, the emotional appeal might have made it easier to go overlook other aspects.

I meant the earlier/original version. One reason that keeps me away from the Hector is when I look at one I see a Baojun 530 regardless of what the "british dynamics" and Mr. Sherlock want us to believe.
But that style looks much better than the chromed face we see here.
I don't like when top auto journalists say "Indians love chrome" which indirectly makes these manufacturers design a car with it integrated. They could just design it maturely and provide all the chrome as a gar(n)ish like MSIL does. Not even going into how the chrome is usually overdone by foreign brands as opposed to Indians.

Originally Posted by Poitive

The atmosphere was much like a bunch of talking quite freely and helping each other take better decisions
.

It still has that undercurrent but definitely not as close/personal.

Back to your SUV now

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by udhaw

Ergonomics are NOT faulty. Knee doesn't rub until one is 6 feet 4 or above. And even then the seat retracts enough for the knee room.

Depends.

My experience is in my friend's '19 Harrier XZ. I am 5,8 and he is 6.

Position 1. In his driving position. He is happy with it. Low and pushed back. I am comfortable with regards to the seat comfort/support. No issue with the centre console rubbing against the knee. But. There are two issues for me. The bigger one is that stupid elephant ear ORVM!!! That thing can even hide an 800/Alto and everytime I have a near heart attack, I promise my friend that I will take the car to the ASC, lop off the elephant ears and put the new ORVMs. The smaller issue is that the Harrier doesn't wrap around you like other vehicles, and you will feel it is bigger than it actually is. With the seating at its lowest, the feeling is accentuated.

Position 2. Compromise. My usual driving position. Not too tall, not too low. The ORVM is still an issue, but can crane my neck around at corners and junctions. Seating comfort is not an issue, unless it is a long journey as anything more than 500kms and I feel underthigh support lacking slightly. My left knee comfortably rest against the centre console, but then I shudder at what would happen in a crash.

Position 3. Perched on. Used rarely. No issue with the ORVM nor driving visibility. Feels like a proper BOF SUV(the seat height position). But. The seat squab has poor underthigh support and the centre console is such a bother, that I cannot use the clutch without the knee hitting the centre console. But much easier to drive the vehicle on tight urban roads with the perched on position.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by shancz

True but the Taigun bugs me even more ...

Aesthetics are so personal. I quite like it's look (in certain colours) and had it been a big bigger would've been the next one to TD.

Not anymore, its only the 1.5 Petrol for the S-Cross since MSIL's decision to move away from diesels.

It totally skipped off my mind. That is how far removed the thought of an S-Corss has been for me. Based on your and @IshaanIan's posts, I noticed one in front of me on the road, and it did seem a lot bigger on the outside than I had thought. It was on my radar only till the 320Nm 1.6 diesel was available, and could well have been the one to go for in that avatar.

Only option that we could think about is the new Scorpio but that's an unknown now. Even if it launches by Jan 2022, streamlined deliveries would only start 6 months down the line.

And the issue of a fresh batch of a car/Mahindra would still remain. I doubt it would be much more suitable and would offer more comfort than the XUV700.

- I meant the earlier/original version. One reason that keeps me away from the Hector is when I look at one I see a Baojun 530 ...

- They could just design it maturely and provide all the chrome as a gar(n)ish like MSIL does. Not even going into how the chrome is usually overdone by foreign brands as opposed to Indians.

- After your comment, ended up reading up a bit further. SGMW (SAIC-GM-Wuling Automobile) is now 44% owned by GM. The group is also selling a rebadged Chevy Matiz/Spark. Interestingly, while the Hector is a Bajoun 530, the Bajoun 630 is sold in some markets as the Chevrolet Optra . Incidentally the old Chevy Captiva you mentioned shared it's diesel engine with the Optra Magnum

Also, I usually tend to look at the inherent car, and brands only at a later stage.

- I hope someone from MG is listening to you about the Chrome, Shancz. They do seemed to have learnt a bit, if one goes per the Hector Plus, which is way better looking (to me).

It still has that undercurrent but definitely not as close/personal.

Maybe it is just a matter of some time, and mates will feel more connected and free with a bit of time.

Originally Posted by DicKy

The bigger one is that stupid elephant ear ORVM!!! That thing can even hide an 800/Alto

It is stuff like this, which makes one wonder how much thought has gone into the design of the car. I take that as a bit of an indication.

An interesting perspective on the seat, mate. Thanks.

PS: Funnily perhaps, I was told by the SA that the per-facelift Jeep Compass didn't have the knee-console issue, and it is the redesign which made it so.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Poitive

- I quite like it's look (in certain colours)
- had it been a big bigger would've been the next one to TD.

- It looks good but just that it doesn't match my preset frame of mind for a VW design, like the 2019 Jetta especially the ads.
- It exists and its called the Tiguan

Originally Posted by Poitive

I noticed one in front of me on the road, and it did seem a lot bigger on the outside than I had thought.

The full length of the car becomes apparent when standing next to it especially the side. Otherwise I consider it as a large hatch with good GC.

Originally Posted by Poitive

And the issue of a fresh batch of a car/Mahindra would still remain. I doubt it would be much more suitable and would offer more comfort than the XUV700.

True, might not have the passenger seat issue and non FSD suspension shouldn't have the low speed harsh ride too but overall ride could be a tad lower than the 700.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- Interestingly, while the Hector is a Bajoun 530, the Bajoun 630 is sold in some markets as the Chevrolet Optra .

- Incidentally the old Chevy Captiva you mentioned shared it's diesel engine with the Optra Magnum

- Also, I usually tend to look at the inherent car, and brands only at a later stage.

- I like to stay away from the naming of cars across the world especially with GM and the manufacturers it bought.
IMO its a mess. Most if their good sellers would trace their roots back to the Daewoo models like the Nubira, Lanos, Matiz etc. That was a good deal for them.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- if one goes per the Hector Plus, which is way better looking (to me).

Agree I see a white one around and the front looks good with the black grill.

Originally Posted by Poitive

- Maybe it is just a matter of some time, and mates will feel more connected and free with a bit of time.

- It is stuff like this, which makes one wonder how much thought has gone into the design of the car.

- I take that as a bit of an indication.

- Yes, hopefully so

- I think they fixed it with the Harrier 2020 iteration but to what extent I am not sure but doesn't look elephant ear(apt description) like anymore from the outside.

- Agree, its these small things that indicate how much of care and attention to detail exists and IMO the established international brands ace. TML specifically doesn't fare well in this regard, they've launched some splendid products but its the last 5% of effort that's found lacking.

Coming to the SUV :
- I think the cars intended for Western/Global markets would have a better chance of suiting your comfort requirements. Provided the costs make sense.

Example the XUV300, originally the Ssangyong Tivoli with a lesser boot is sold in the South African market, intended for larger frames too, made you feel good but the rear seat was a disappointment since it wasn't designed.

That's why I want you to try the S-Cross since it is an international model and could serve at least as a stop gap car.

Not sure if it makes sense, if needed, will handle it separately in a later post.

[Metallicar]

I have booked Harrier XZA+ dark. I met two sales people in two different showrooms in Gurgaon and Chandigarh. Experience was nice. No pushy sales talk.

Thanks everyone.

[Poitive]

Originally Posted by shancz

- It looks good but just that it doesn't match my preset frame of mind for a VW design, like the 2019 Jetta especially the ads.
- It exists and its called the Tiguan

- The brand changes expectations, hence appeal.
- More than the aesthetics, I find the names being so similar being an issue

Otherwise I consider it as a large hatch with good GC.

S-Cross very much looks like one. The proportions are such.

True, might not have the passenger seat issue and non FSD suspension shouldn't have the low speed harsh ride too but overall ride could be a tad lower than the 700.

On paper, my main draw to the XUV700 was it's suspension.

Most if their good sellers would trace their roots back to the Daewoo models like the Nubira, Lanos, Matiz etc. That was a good deal for them.

Might just be because of Daewoo's lineup being more in line with certain markets (including ours)

- Agree, its these small things that indicate how much of care and attention to detail exists and IMO the established international brands ace. TML specifically doesn't fare well in this regard, they've launched some splendid products but its the last 5% of effort that's found lacking.

And that is the 5% that would be visible and noticed. International brands, due to typically much larger numbers can justify a large design budget, with cost per car reducing with increasing numbers. Also due to accumulated knowledge over a larger number of cars.

- I think the cars intended for Western/Global markets would have a better chance of suiting your comfort requirements. Provided the costs make sense.

- May or may not be so, mate. Cars in western markets (at least up to a certain price range) often focus more on front seat, as one isn't expected to be chauffeur driven, and the rear might not get enough importance also due to typically small families. For a given price, Tata has often produced the most spacious cabins - Indica, Indigo/Manza, Sierra, Safari (old), etc. Interestingly, I happened to sit in a Nano for a few minutes, and for 4, it felt surprisingly spacious. Ford Fiesta lineup was particularly cramped. Things are changing to an extent in the past some years though.

Originally Posted by Metallicar

I have booked Harrier XZA+ dark. I met two sales people in two different showrooms in Gurgaon and Chandigarh. Experience was nice. No pushy sales talk.

Thanks everyone.

Congratulations, mate Wishing you many happy miles with smiles. The SA I interacted with too was such - accessible, knowledgeable and not pushy. Just might be how Tata is training them.

~~~~~~~~

As for my SUV, I remain confused, with Hector not seeming exciting enough, and the others having near-deal-breakers and not enough in them to make them acceptable. I remember thinking while getting the Optra that when the time comes, this would be a difficult one to replace.

With Covid looming again, the next set of Test Drives might be some distance away.
.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Poitive

- The brand changes expectations, hence appeal.
- More than the aesthetics, I find the names being so similar being an issue

- true but primarily the target audience, they wouldn't dare to touch the Golf GTI or any of its signature traits since the target customers are more mature and niche. So would've been the case with the Jetta but was probably worth the risk due to low sales and non niche category.
- True the Taigun and the Tiguan especially.

Originally Posted by Poitive

S-Cross very much looks like one. The proportions are such.

S-Cross is very similar in dimensions to the Mk7 Golf and always reminds me of the Mk6 Golf especially in the rear profile. In most dimensions the S-Cross is lesser except being longer by 20-25mm

Originally Posted by Poitive

Might just be because of Daewoo's lineup being more in line with certain markets (including ours)

Exactly that, GM's usual lineup is North America specific and to an extent the western world including mid east. Daewoo products gave them meaningful presence in Asian markets.

Originally Posted by Poitive

Also due to accumulated knowledge over a larger number of cars.

And the benefit of decades of development and improvements in house.

Originally Posted by Poitive

May or may not be so, mate.

Agree I was talking about getting something a size bigger so that the front seats work for you and the rear isn't cramped, hence the disclaimer for cost since that might be venturing into the European territory

Originally Posted by Poitive

As for my SUV, I remain confused.

Sadly, true.
Any currently available cars that you've been driven in which were a good fit regardless of sedan/hatch/suv.