[Mpower]

Originally Posted by H3LIOS

Sorry if that comment didn't agree with you. I was comparing it with the 75HP engine of GAMA - the same as that in Gurkha.

Also, I am not sure what the TCIC engine is - the sales guy said that the Victa comes in two versions IDI & DI, and they had only the DI for test drive. I will say that it was louder and harsher than the Trax Toofan engine -

If you feel that I ruled out the Sumo Victa too soon, then please suggest what configuration I should be looking for and I would be happy to revisit the showroom. I planning to drop by there today anyway and see if they got any info on the new Xenon XT 4x4....

TCIC stands for Turbocharged Intercooled and its a 1.9 liter IDI diesel. The one you drove is a 3.0 DI NA which is used in the TATA 407 truck and it has a lot of torque and is fuel efficient but its sounds like a 407.

Try out the IDI engine. Its much smoother, makes 90bhp and was used in the earlier Safaris, so its really smooth. The vehicle is a proven one is is much more refined than any Tempo Trax version.

Xenon is nothing but a pickup truck version of the Sumo Grande. BTW, the Grande is the most modern of all your options and feels generations ahead of your Boleros and Traxes. You can always add some accesories to make it look more macho.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Mpower

BTW, the Grande is the most modern of all your options and feels generations ahead of your Boleros and Traxes.

You own a Grande?

When i went for a TD the interiors were horrible. But its a 2 BHK on wheels. Huge amounts of space inside.

I wonder why it dosent sell.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

You own a Grande?

When i went for a TD the interiors were horrible. But its a 2 BHK on wheels. Huge amounts of space inside.

I wonder why it dosent sell.

Every thing is relative , Horrible as compared to what ?
Are you comparing with Force vehicles or Bolero's etc or something higher in class ?

Main reason of Grande not selling are 2 .
1. Priced too close to Safari base model and gets beating when they are shown on display side by side .
2. Brand Sumo stands for Call centre cab or taxi so individual buyers refrain from buying , Tata dealers have clear instructions for not selling Grande to yellow board and also Taxi segment finds Sumo Victa more attrective in pricing.

I do not understand why they just didn't use name Grande instead of Sumo Grande , despite entierly different body , engine , wheel base , interiors and suspension.

PS : Xenon front styling is similar to grande and engine being sold in India is same but it is a different wheelbase and mechanicals AFAIK

[FourWheelDrift]

I think the TML vehicles that are being spoken about are :

Sumo Grande :
Home (website)

Sumo Victa GX TCIC :
TATA MOTORS - SUMO VICTA (specs) and
TATA MOTORS - SUMO VICTA (website)

If J D Power IQS scores are important considerations for you, you could look at the latest (late 2008) :
2008 India Initial Quality Study (IQS) | J.D. Power and Associates

Top 3 MUV rankings for 2008 are :
1. Innova
2. Tavera
3. Sumo

Cheers,

FourWheelDrift

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by FourWheelDrift

Top 3 MUV rankings for 2008 are :
1. Innova
2. Tavera
3. Sumo

The first two are quite beyond challenge.
About the Sumo, I'll ask a strange question: What kind of maker gives better initial quality with their medium product and bad IQ with their top of the line offering?! Does that not make some alarm bells ring?

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

You own a Grande?

When i went for a TD the interiors were horrible. But its a 2 BHK on wheels. Huge amounts of space inside.

I wonder why it dosent sell.

Between the Grande/Tempo/Bolero, the Grande is the only vehicle where the body and the engine were designed in this 'decade' and this 'century'

No... I don't but I've sat in one and that's good enough to gauge the quality. Maybe the fit and finish is not as good as a Indo-Jap car but is still leagues ahead of Trax/Bolero/Victa. Of course looks is subjective but 99% will agree that Grande is more modern.

It comes with a 2.2 liter 16V common rail turbo intercooled engine with 120 bhp which is generations ahead of the units fround in Boleros and Tempos. We'd owned a Sumo for 4 years in teh 90s and it was as reliable as a rock. Its past its first year of production and should be debugged by now.

[4x4addict]

Spitfire. Guess you are a Bolero fan. The Grande maybe ugly but it is the most modern offering compared to the Bolero/Gama. Wish they had made the rear more proportionate. The back of the vehicle looks clearly bloated compared to the front half.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by amitk26

Every thing is relative , Horrible as compared to what ?

Are you comparing with Force vehicles or Bolero's etc or something higher in class ?

No comparison to any other vehicle, just that i felt for a vehicle that has been launched to take away the taxi mindset for Sumo's dosent have good quality interiors. I like the space though.

Main reason of Grande not selling are 2 .
1. Priced too close to Safari base model and gets beating when they are shown on display side by side .
2. Brand Sumo stands for Call centre cab or taxi so individual buyers refrain from buying , Tata dealers have clear instructions for not selling Grande to yellow board and also Taxi segment finds Sumo Victa more attrective in pricing.

Agree with the first not with the second, Indica's sell well. I am not too sure whether it is the right approach of TATA not to sell for Taxi Operators. The Innova is bought in hordes by taxi operators too.. Get the point?

I do not understand why they just didn't use name Grande instead of Sumo Grande , despite entierly different body , engine , wheel base , interiors and suspension.

I guess that was to phase it out completely once the Grande starts picking up the numbers but the "not selling to taxi folks" dosent go with that. I maybe wrong here.

Originally Posted by Mpower

Between the Grande/Tempo/Bolero, the Grande is the only vehicle where the body and the engine were designed in this 'decade' and this 'century'

Agree, issue is its not selling. Why dosent it attarct the Bolero and Tavera crowd then.

Maybe Redliner can tell he didnt even think of the Grande as an option. He is going for a Bolero.

No... I don't but I've sat in one and that's good enough to gauge the quality. Maybe the fit and finish is not as good as a Indo-Jap car but is still leagues ahead of Trax/Bolero/Victa. Of course looks is subjective but 99% will agree that Grande is more modern.

Quality is good? I found it lacking. Expected of a TATA but the Safari looks much better put together.

It comes with a 2.2 liter 16V common rail turbo intercooled engine with 120 bhp which is generations ahead of the units fround in Boleros and Tempos. We'd owned a Sumo for 4 years in teh 90s and it was as reliable as a rock. Its past its first year of production and should be debugged by now.

Again agree but i guess for a price, in this bracket it needs to sell for less.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

Spitfire. Guess you are a Bolero fan. The Grande maybe ugly but it is the most modern offering compared to the Bolero/Gama. Wish they had made the rear more proportionate. The back of the vehicle looks clearly bloated compared to the front half.

I am no fanboy like... I go with what works for me. Today Bolero tomorrow something else. Anything that makes sense to me to own and maintain. I am a sedate driver who does not want 100 bhp+ under my right foot. I am happy ambling around at 80-90 kmph with service costs as low as the Bolero.

The Bolero came 10 years back, modern dosent necassarily mean right. Lets see how long the more modern offering lasts in our market compared to the Bolero/Tavera/Sumo.

I even had a Bullet and sold it. Why? The constant issues made no sense to me.

TATA horror stories gives me goosebumps.

PS: We owned a Sumo when it first came out. I used to call it Pajero

PPS: This is gone far too OT. Sorry..

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Agree, issue is its not selling. Why dosent it attarct the Bolero and Tavera crowd then.

Maybe Redliner can tell he didnt even think of the Grande as an option. He is going for a Bolero.

Quality is good? I found it lacking. Expected of a TATA but the Safari looks much better put together.

I have no idea why its not selling. The only thing I dont like is the back end which looks vannish and not macho. white color Grande looks smashing up front.

Bolero, of course its a top seller, but for someone who needs to move a large family in comfort is a no.no.

[anupmathur]

Originally Posted by Mpower

Bolero, of course its a top seller, but for someone who needs to move a large family in comfort is a no.no.

With ALL the evidence confronting you, you still choose to use such strong terminology! Very obviously, the 'market' seems to think differently! I know at least two families that use it as their trusted steed.
There is more to car ownership than just the ride quality!!! Please try to fathom that.
Ask those that really TRAVEL.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by anupmathur

With ALL the evidence confronting you, you still choose to use such strong terminology! Very obviously, the 'market' seems to think differently! I know at least two families that use it as their trusted steed.
There is more to car ownership than just the ride quality!!! Please try to fathom that.

That something more in this case is price tag and positioning .

Comparing 2WD , PS , AC versions for apple to apple comparison,

Bolero SLX is 6,32,459 ex showroom at Delhi.
At the time of launch in April 2007 it was 5.5

Bolero DI 2WD highest trim is 5,35,771 ex showroom ( Delhi)

Sumo Grande Lx is 6,71,441 ex show room ( Delhi)
and Grande GX is 7,63,145 ex show room ( Delhi )

and in Bangalore on road its 8.78 just 33K less then Safari Lx

So for people mover segment on country roads it's Bolero , On urban roads
for low tier it's Sumo and high end its Innova

For individual if more power and refinement and avoiding a cab brand comes at little more then its always better so in Showroom itself Grande looses out.

When I was searching for vehicle test drive I found Grande far superior in every aspect to Bolero and Tavera but I was comparing Grande , Safari , Inova and Scorpio mHwak and Safari won in terms of engine responsiveness and driving comfirt on broken roads / no roads.

I feel the branding and price/segment positioning of Sumo Grande are contradictory.

Indian market is price sensitive as last mile ( lakh) is hardest mile ( lakh ) to shell off.

BTW Mahindra stratigy in Scorpio seems to be raising prices with each passing year Scorpio CRDe LX which was 7+ earlier is now 9 L.
And if you have noticed after mHawk and price hike of CRDe Lx Scorpio does not sell in same numbers.

[H3LIOS]

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

How about a bolero slx 4wd?

The Bolero SLX 4WD is a bit expensive, and the dealer didn't seem too enthusiastic about selling it either. I wish they offered 4WD on the Bolero Plus.

I went for a test drive but they didn't have a PLUS available with a PS, apparently the taxi guys don't bother about comforts like PS. And the sales guy didn't want me to drive a non-PS Bolero and get put-off by it. He said he will find one for me with PS this week, if not a PLUS then at least an SLE. I also found some used Bolero XLs, but they are quite expensive. Rs 4L for a 2005 model with 80K+ on the odometer. A new PLUS is about 5L on road with current discounts.

Originally Posted by vinod_nookala

Finding used 4wd trax is next to immposible!! Not worth the hassle

I was quoted Rs 6.24L for a GAMA with 4WD (but no AC or PS). The dealer seemed willing to negotiate a discount on that, but I didn't pursue. I didn't want to think about GAMA anymore, but after seeing those nice Judo photos that rhandle posted over on the Gurkha thread, I can't help but wonder if it might be worth the price & effort. What do you think?

Originally Posted by Mpower

TCIC stands for Turbocharged Intercooled and its a 1.9 liter IDI diesel. The one you drove is a 3.0 DI NA which is used in the TATA 407 truck and it has a lot of torque and is fuel efficient but its sounds like a 407.

Try out the IDI engine. Its much smoother, makes 90bhp and was used in the earlier Safaris, so its really smooth. The vehicle is a proven one is is much more refined than any Tempo Trax version.

Thanks for the info - this forum is so great, even the sales guy couldn't give such clear information. I did go back to the show-room, but there was no IDI available for a test-drive. I got the price-list and man, the TCIC GX is expensive, I could get the Grande for another 1Lakh. He said he will call me when an IDI Sumo becomes available for a test drive.

[4x4addict]

I am a bit confused with the IDI/DI Sumo. As far as I know there are two kinds of classic Sumos. One is the Sumo Victa with the 2.0 Liter TCIC IDI engine and creature comforts meant for private use. The second is the Sumo Spacio which is a pure commercial offering with the 407 3 Liter DI engine. I am surprised that they don't have the Victa in stock for testing. Victa does not come with the DI engine.

[H3LIOS]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I am a bit confused with the IDI/DI Sumo..... I am surprised that they don't have the Victa in stock for testing. Victa does not come with the DI engine.

I too wasn't aware of all the Sumo variants till Mpower enlightened me. The Sumo website TATA Motors - Utility Vehicles shows two variants - the Victa & the Victa DI. So Victa does come with the DI engine - maybe they are phasing out the IDI engine.

My town is quite small, and the dealers have demo/test-drive vehicles for the popular selling models only. The salesman did say that the Victa DI sells more than the IDI, and no need to wonder why - the DI is cheaper and is more fuel efficient.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by H3LIOS

Well, I took your advice and did a test drive of the Sumo Grande yesterday. The ride was better than I remembered, but to me the steering still felt a bit vague and also the braking was not confidence inspiring. The wife and kids liked the interiors of the top-of-the-line GX version. Of course, we still couldn't get used to the "different" look of the vehicle. To me it looks 'naked' especially at the back and the sides. The spare-wheel on the back-door would have definitely been an improvement. Add a rear spoiler, and the back may not be so bad. The sides do need something to disturb the monotonous lines. A sticker job would be the easiest, but maybe a well-designed rubber or metal beading and some plastic cladding?

The best part was the price. They were offering a 20K discount, and the sales person indicated that we could negotiate further with the sales mgr. And they had two 2008 GX models left on which there are offering the same 66K discount which they advertised in Dec. That would bring the on-road price of the vehicle to Rs 7.9L. Definitely a good deal. I am trying to decide whether to spend the extra 1L or not.

Why not look at the Grande LX base version with discounts. Things like Power locks/windows can be added later when budget frees up.

Bull bar up front should help make it look more macho

Originally Posted by H3LIOS

. I did go back to the show-room, but there was no IDI available for a test-drive. I got the price-list and man, the TCIC GX is expensive, I could get the Grande for another 1Lakh. He said he will call me when an IDI Sumo becomes available for a test drive.

How much is the Victa GX? I have to correct my previous statement. The Victa IDI has 2 engines, the original 68 bhp non-turbo engine and the 90 bhp TCIC which is available only in GX version. I had thought that the non-turbo was dead but I guess it lives on in non-metro areas.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

I am a bit confused with the IDI/DI Sumo. As far as I know there are two kinds of classic Sumos. One is the Sumo Victa with the 2.0 Liter TCIC IDI engine and creature comforts meant for private use. The second is the Sumo Spacio which is a pure commercial offering with the 407 3 Liter DI engine. I am surprised that they don't have the Victa in stock for testing. Victa does not come with the DI engine.

The Spacio name was killed after the Victa version arrived. They renamed it as Victa DI.

Originally Posted by anupmathur

With ALL the evidence confronting you, you still choose to use such strong terminology! Very obviously, the 'market' seems to think differently! I know at least two families that use it as their trusted steed.
There is more to car ownership than just the ride quality!!! Please try to fathom that.
Ask those that really TRAVEL.

Sorry, did'nt mean to offend you. Its not about ride but space where the Sumo beats the Bolero and HELIOS himself has mentioned it after testing both. Yes I travel, just did a 5000 km road trip to Florida.