[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

OT: Do you really mean it? It is a well known fact that when it comes to customer care, no manufacturer has been able to beat MSIL. Be it the spread, the experience or the issue resolution. In fact, in this year's JD Power CSI report, M&M has slipped behind TML as well.

MSIL may top JD Power but to me M&M is way better as they listen to the customers and especially if there is any manufacturing/ engineering defect, they don't shirk responsibility like MSIL but go out of the way to delight the customer. To TML and M&M wins hands down for Customer Service!

Originally Posted by Spitfire

We (me and wife) are used to better "cars" then the Bolero. We still hold on to this one. Why? Because we think its an ideal family car for "us". We meet people who turn their noses on the Bolero mostly those who drive the new gen cars. They ask me why this? I say you wont get it. And that should be your attitude. If you dont get it dont comment. It sells and lot of families get it. We have a small club running of Boleroes all use it as a family car. Not everyone is satisfied (but then which car does?) but it surely works as a family car.

+1 to your line of thought.

Cheers

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

MSIL may top JD Power but to me M&M is way better as they listen to the customers and especially if there is any manufacturing/ engineering defect, they don't shirk responsibility like MSIL but go out of the way to delight the customer. To TML and M&M wins hands down for Customer Service!

+1 to your line of thought.

Cheers

+1 Perfect! I also feel the same way. Surveys can be misleading depending on the sample set being surveyed. Let us rest the case, that even in it's current form, the Bolero is a far better product than the Grande MK2, although it can be made a lot better.

[n.devdath]

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

MSIL may top JD Power but to me M&M is way better as they listen to the customers and especially if there is any manufacturing/ engineering defect, they don't shirk responsibility like MSIL but go out of the way to delight the customer.

MSIL is on top because they performed better overall than all the others and have been consistently doing it.
And even though a few of us (including me) have had excellent experiences at M&M/TML due to whatever reasons, these nationwide surveys by reputed firms like JD Power amply demonstrate that the likes of us is lesser than the average sample size. Simple. No?

Anyway, that is not the discussion this thread is meant for.

[JediKnight]

If look at the brochure Tata Grande looks like a great vehicle. Great space common rail engine new gen looks etc. etc. But it does not tell you about the wobbly handling. Poor build and quality. It does not talk about the enormous proportions that make maneuvering the vehicle a pain in the city.

Bolero is an honest vehicle. It does not promise anything fancy but gets job done. And gets it done well. It may have an unrefined engine but it is superbly reliable. Very good low down torque. Tolerant to [adulterated fuel (DI ). Cheap to maintain and easy to repair ( DI )

I personally believe resale value is a very good indicator of a vehicle's worth overall. The market is the best judge.

[jeeva]

Originally Posted by Spitfire

But I have a family a 2.5 year old kid. Recently (Diwali) we did a 1.5k kms trip with family in the Bolero. This is our daily drive. Our only car.

+1
Couldn't agree more on this.
Same here.

Originally Posted by MileCruncher

MSIL may top JD Power but to me M&M is way better as they listen to the customers and especially if there is any manufacturing/ engineering defect, they don't shirk responsibility like MSIL but go out of the way to delight the customer. To TML and M&M wins hands down for Customer Service!

Very true. To speak of customer service from M&M, from my experience I believe they are the best. My Bolero's doors and the bonnet started showing signs of rust. The max I expected from M&M was to probably get me a good tinker/paint job at a subsidized rate from the dealer. But then, they went out of their way and decided to replace the four doors and the bonnet free of cost.
Mine is a 2006 model, so no warranties and stuff come into play. M&M could have easily washed off their hands, passing it off as a 4 year old vehicle, which could have been a sound reasoning too.

Now, how many manufacturers would travel this far to empathise with the customer? No, definitely not Tata.
In today's world, when we have dealers selling off lemons to unsuspecting customers and manufacturers playing hide and seek all along, this honorable gesture from M&M has made me their lifetime customer.

[MileCruncher]

Originally Posted by n.devdath

MSIL is on top because they performed better overall than all the others and have been consistently doing it.
And even though a few of us (including me) have had excellent experiences at M&M/TML due to whatever reasons, these nationwide surveys by reputed firms like JD Power amply demonstrate that the likes of us is lesser than the average sample size. Simple. No?

Well its not so simple. I'm sure you as a Management Consultant know very well that the devil is in the detail and statistics can be made to say, exactly what you want to say.

Also have you had any MSIL vehicle? I don't know about you but I have had 2 MSIL cars, one M800 (sold) and another Alto (slight with us) and my experience across quite a few ASCs is not exactly praiseworthy. Apart from this a close friend bought a 17k clocked 1 year old Baleno from True Value and when his clutch failed in the 1st month itself, no matterof follow-up would sort the issue. Finally a mail to Jagdish Khattar was required to wake the dealers/ company staff of their slumber and to get into action.

Hence I take all these surveys with a quite a bit of salt

[pradipk]

Hey, I am not expert to comment on capabilities of vehicles but I can confidently say that for normal use and with regular services any Indian car can serve well for at least 6-7 yrs. So Bolero/Sumo both are great.

However I am going thru all Bolero related threads including this very interesting one as this is the exact question that I too have. Now if I want to buy any new vehicle keeping myself focused, it will be 100% BOLERO. However as this will be my only family car I am not able to digest couple of issues with it.

Is it wise spending 7.5 L OTR for Bolero and keep it for family use? Please share your comment.

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Ok, if you say so (considering you are the ultimate authority on family cars). But I have a family a 2.5 year old kid. Recently (Diwali) we did a 1.5k kms trip with family in the Bolero. This is our daily drive. Our only car. Other cars owned by us (family) - a E220 (wife family, thier costliest car of the lot) and a Honda City (ANHC, dad's present car). We (me and wife) are used to better "cars" then the Bolero. We still hold on to this one. Why? Because we think its an ideal family car for "us". We meet people who turn their noses on the Bolero mostly those who drive the new gen cars. They ask me why this? I say you wont get it. And that should be your attitude. If you dont get it dont comment. It sells and lot of families get it. We have a small club running of Boleroes all use it as a family car. Not everyone is satisfied (but then which car does?) but it surely works as a family car.

Spitfire: can you please share feelings of your family members when they travel with you in Bolero? I mean I am nowhere close to it as since 10 yrs our Matiz serves as our family car.


Thanks,
Pradip.

[4x4addict]

@spitfire:

No offence meant, but just because you use your Bolero as a family car doesn't make it a good family car.

The engine, interiors and chases are very dated. The main advantage of the Bolero is that it is cheap to buy and maintain and bullet proof. It is in no way a modern vehicle? Can you please tell me what is the difference (non cosmetic) between the Bolero and the Armada that was launched in mid 90s?

In my view a family car used for Touring should have at a minimum,

1) Atleast 100+ bhp engine
2) ABS
3) Good Handling
4) Comfortable Seats
5) Reasonable Ergonomics.

Just to put things in perspective, my maids father took a loan a year back and bought a Tata ACE. When he is off on Sundays they use it as a family vehicle. Does this make Tata ACE a family vehicle?

I am no fan of the Sumo Grande, but If I were to take my family for a road trip and had to pick between the Grande and Bolero, I would pick the Grande for the following reasons:

1) Great 2.2 VVTI Engine with 120 bhp on tap.
2) Reclining Middle Row Seats
3) Front Facing Third row seats
4) Much more spacious interiors.

I can't imaging taking my family on a trip in a vehicle that makes 63 bhp at a max of 3200 rpm. Do you realize that entry level sub compacts from Maruthi make more power than this?

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

@spitfire:

No offence meant, but just because you use your Bolero as a family car doesn't make it a good family car.

The engine, interiors and chases are very dated. The main advantage of the Bolero is that it is cheap to buy and maintain and bullet proof. It is in no way a modern vehicle? Can you please tell me what is the difference (non cosmetic) between the Bolero and the Armada that was launched in mid 90s?

In my view a family car used for Touring should have at a minimum,

1) Atleast 100+ bhp engine
2) ABS
3) Good Handling
4) Comfortable Seats
5) Reasonable Ergonomics.

Just to put things in perspective, my maids father took a loan a year back and bought a Tata ACE. When he is off on Sundays they use it as a family vehicle. Does this make Tata ACE a family vehicle?

I am no fan of the Sumo Grande, but If I were to take my family for a road trip and had to pick between the Grande and Bolero, I would pick the Grande for the following reasons:

1) Great 2.2 VVTI Engine with 120 bhp on tap.
2) Reclining Middle Row Seats
3) Front Facing Third row seats
4) Much more spacious interiors.

I can't imaging taking my family on a trip in a vehicle that makes 63 bhp at a max of 3200 rpm. Do you realize that entry level sub compacts from Maruthi make more power than this?

At this point in time, we should not be looking at the DI Version of the Bolero any more (SLX/SLE...), but should be comparing with the VLX (CRDE) version only. The VLX version has a gem of an engine, that generates 97 BHP (quite close to your 100 BHP figure), and has good torque figures too. Couple that with the lesser weight of the Bolero as compared to the Grande MK2, and you have a vehicle that will outgun a Grande in absolutely any terrain and situation.

Moreover, the Bolero has immensely better handling than a Grande, and is built to last. Nothing fancy, but pretty solidly built. The Grande, on the other hand has a lot of cheap plastic panels that are susceptible to breakage.

The Bolero has more compact proportions and is, at least, as driveable in cities, as a Grande.

The Bolero has a nice exterior design, as compared to the non-existent design for a Grande. True, the looks are dated for the Bolero, but they still look great. Why spoil something that works? And a quad of nice alloys does wonders to the looks of the Bolero. Nothing you do with the Grande can make it pretty.

The only department, that Bolero lags the Grande in, substantially, is in Interior looks and interior space, and ergonomics. That is what I would like M&M to address quickly. If only they were to borrow somethings from the Xylo and plug them in, it would mean a world of difference inside a Bolero.

M&M also delivers a better service centre experience than TML and has cheaper spares.

Overall a Bolero is a far better buy (and cheaper too), than a Grande. If someone is hell bent on the interiors and knick-knacks that a Grande offers, then a far better buy, for that individual is the Xylo. However, we are not discussing the Xylo here.

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by pradipk

However as this will be my only family car I am not able to digest couple of issues with it.

Is it wise spending 7.5 L OTR for Bolero and keep it for family use? Please share your comment.

Spitfire: can you please share feelings of your family members when they travel with you in Bolero? I mean I am nowhere close to it as since 10 yrs our Matiz serves as our family car.

First and foremost, to be honest I do not understand what a family car means. To me my Bolero is my Family car. Why?

• It acts and looks like private transport. Lot of others feel otherwise.
• Air Conditioning (No heater but I have fixed that)
• Power Steering.
• Enough space for 5 people and their luggage.
• Drinks Diesel - cheaper then petrol.
• Cheap no make it dirt cheap to maintain compared to newer gen options.
• Has had 2 breakdowns in 7 years - both times I was not stranded.
• Travelled 1.4 lakh kilometers till date.

The vehicle (touchwood) has never let me down. I know many other cars wont but then the perception is this one may.

Also consider I got this 7 years back, when options to my requirements were limited by my capabilities. Think bachelor with first job. Until then I was driving a Classic with no top or doors. But was used to better cars owned by us otherwise.

Coming to my family. My son 2.5 years, adores the Bolero. But that maybe due to the fact that he always had this one and no other choice. He feels claustrophobic in small cars though. My wife, if her preference is to be considered she wants a Honda CRV. But then..

She has travelled with me for like 60K kms of the total run of the vehicle. When we got back from Goa this Diwali on entering our Bangalore house her exact words were, "that was better then the train and faster." 5 years in marraige if she didnt like the Bolero she "would" have made me change it. She hasnt so...

My dad loves it, he is 6'4" and sits only in the codriver seat if he is not driving.

My mom has had a knee operation and she is hates travelling in cars (any cars).

Hope that gives a perspective.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

@spitfire:

No offence meant, but just because you use your Bolero as a family car doesn't make it a good family car.

No offence taken dude. I never do, just that some people miss the humour in my posts.

Like I said earlier I am not clear what a good family car is. Mine and a few other friends who use it as such are totally fine with it as a family car.

Which vehicle in India sells as Family Car as its USP? Dont say M800..

The engine, interiors and chases are very dated.

Agreed. How does it affect my family use of the car? Dated is not crude.

Engine is 72bhp as per specs, hits a max of 110 kmph. But at 60-80 kmph it doesnt make a sound. The wind noise with open windows is an issue though.

Interiors are basic but they work quite well. I know about the rigid middle seat. If something was that big I carry it overhead. But till today other then carrying cycles I never had any other issue.

The 3rd seat is horrible. But then we never used it for passenger use.

The NVH levels are quite reasonable. The AC works well. The seats are not all comfortable on long drives but then I never had a sore back or a sore rear. To be honest sometimes I did but that was because it was marathon driving nonstop. I would surely like to have better, but this works for me.

Is the Bolero CRDe chassis different from the DI Chassis?

If you are talking safety yes, its not safe. But I believe we are as safe as one wants to be here in India. I am no rash/fast driver. Never exceed 90-100 kmph on our highways ever. A very defensive driver. Maybe the Bolero made me like that but when I look at my insurance claim it makes me a happier person.

The main advantage of the Bolero is that it is cheap to buy and maintain and bullet proof.

The USP that works for me. Perfectly.

It is in no way a modern vehicle? Can you please tell me what is the difference (non cosmetic) between the Bolero and the Armada that was launched in mid 90s?

You would be knowing wont you? I have seen your posts on this board for a while now. Unless you really want to know.

In my view a family car used for Touring should have at a minimum,

Is there something called Family car used for City driving? Family car used for Grocery Shopping? Family Car used for dropping the kids to School? Family Car used for carrying the LPG cylinder? Are they all one or different type of Family cars?

For me the Bolero acts as both touring and city use which is a Family Car.

1) Atleast 100+ bhp engine

The XD3P takes about 30 secs to reach 80 kmph (my driving) I am perfectly fine with that. If it could have done it in 15 secs I still could have been fine with it.

72.5 bhp (on paper) is good enough for me.

2) ABS

If the Bolero CRDe could have come with that instead of the LSPV I could have bought one.

Yes ABS, Airbags et al is surely required.

3) Good Handling

Its a bread box on wheels for heavens sake. If you are going to go corner carving you need your head examined. Tell me one vehicle in that price range in those dimensions that has "Good" (relative term) Handling?

4) Comfortable Seats

Lot many have dumped the OE seats for others. I havent, I could like to have better but I am ok with this. The bench seat is comfortable though as per me.

5) Reasonable Ergonomics.

Again a sore point agreed. Its build on a 50 year old design. But its build well. You want better ergos you need more money. But honestly I have never suffered any issues. I got a remote on the steering wheel.

Just to put things in perspective, my maids father took a loan a year back and bought a Tata ACE. When he is off on Sundays they use it as a family vehicle. Does this make Tata ACE a family vehicle?

You tell me? I dont know. Couple of folks before me seem to know better what a family vehicle is maybe you should ask them.

I am no fan of the Sumo Grande

My experience on this is nil. So no comments. Maybe folks who use one can shed more light.

And I didnt buy the Bolero to pick up family or go on long trips alone.

I can't imaging taking my family on a trip in a vehicle that makes 63 bhp at a max of 3200 rpm. Do you realize that entry level sub compacts from Maruthi make more power than this?

I am thinking it would be less then 63 bhp, anyone dynoed?

A small example, a friend in a 90 bhp car travelled with us to Goa from Bangalore in November. He took exactly 40 mins more then me to reach Goa. 40 mins is no huge concern for me.

But frankly if I want what I really think I want. I would be driving a Toyota Fortuner. But I aint that rich... yet... And when I do the Bolero will still stay.

[Torqy]

@spitfire, +1 to your points.

For me too, Bolero is the ONLY car for me and my family with a 3yr old girl. Call it a family car, touring car, grocery car anything. People make choices for different reasons. I could afford only this....and it fit my needs. Period. It's been 3 years now and it has never let me down. I call it peace of mind. Compare it with the horror stories of some people having to see TATA A/S/S every other day.

No Bolero owner will say its the BEST vehicle. They're usually very honest. It has a lot of room for improvement.


OT: How did you fix the heater issue?

-- Torqy

[Spitfire]

Originally Posted by Torqy

OT: How did you fix the heater issue?

It never came with a heater I made one myself. Its a DIY thing. Plugin when required plug-out when not required. I use the original blower.

Works on the principle of a hair dryer

[KedarJ]

guess what? I was on my way back to Pune from Hyderabad, and actually got to see a all new bolero under test. I belive it be a bolero from the external features. It appeared to be slightly larger than the present version. But certainly not a scorpio or xylo. Looking absolutely squarish.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

WITHOUT DOUBT BEST IN COUNRTY CUSTOMER CARE NETWORK (I WAS PART OF IT TILL 2007) ETC.

Behram, sorry to say, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. And I sure hope Mahindra doesn't think so either, because there is clearly a lot of work to be done on the customer service front. I have access to about 300 - 400 Mahindra ownership reviews...and most urban customers have given terrible ratings to Mahindra service centers. As a Mahindra owner of 13 years, and having many Scorpios / Logans in my circle, I have to agree. The customer service offered by Mahindra in urban cities is completely below average.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Let us rest the case, that even in it's current form, the Bolero is a far better product than the Grande MK2

How can we rest the case? A lot of us disagree with such a sweeping statement. My opinion : The Bolero is definitely more rugged and can handle abuse / broken rural roads better. However, as a family vehicle, my pick would be the Grande MKII. It's MUCH more refined, has a lot more space, the ride comfort is superior and yes, the Sumo is one of the few Tata vehicles with an A+ reliability record.

[4x4addict]

I would never say that Bolero is a bad product. It does the job it was designed for very well, which is to be a rural transport vehicle where the owners priorities are fairly different from city dwellers. If you were looking for a vehicle to keep in your farm or for commercial use, use or your office. I would any day pick the Bolero. By family vehicle, I mean a vehicle used for person use to ferry your family around and take road trips with your family, as opposed to something to run errands in your office or ferry your employeees to construction sites. I feel Grande is a better pick for the former and Bolero works better for the latter.