Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long

pkumar · 25th April 2011, 21:59

I have been facing this issue for quite a long time but never bothered to get it root-caused. Whenever i drive my car hard for around 1-1.5 hours with AC off OR 0.5 hour with AC ON, the engine starts to die. The throttle press seems to have no effect and the RPM dies.
Although i have not much idea why this could be happening, here are few observations
(1) While driving hard the engine revs pretty freely upto 5k rpm,so no basic issue
(2) This is observed on even at night time when the intake air is cold enough. Seems unlikely that it is a case of air starvation.
(3) Coolant level is perfectly fine. and the temp meter behaves itself
(4) This kind of engine dieing hints at fuel starvation. Fuel pump issue? Or Rubber parts wearing out?
(5) Things return to normal when car is left undriven for 5-10 minutes OR the hard driving is stopped and you live with "dieing" behavior for 5 minutes or so. What is the role continuous driving playing here? something heating up somewhere?
(6) Any sensor getting heating up thus sending incorrect signal to ECU? or any error code in the ECU itself?
(7) Continous 120-140kmph highway driving even for very loooong durations doesnt pose any issue till AC is off. but 120+ driving with AC ON starts posing issue after 0.5 hour or so. Thus, happens only when sudden acceleration is demanded from the car several times and often in a short duration. Or Throttle is pressed more than the engine can respond to.

The car is more than 4 years old but this problem was first noticed 2 years ago. I mention this because the problem happening for even 2 year aged car could indicate that it may not be something due to wear-tear of a part, though it could still be.
I am planning to visit A$$ but i dont have much hope from them. Especially when it is difficult to reproduce the problem unless i drive for one hour before going to them.

Experts, please advise on what could be potential problem areas.

P.s. - no mods on the car. runs on ows synthetic oil.

jeeva · 25th April 2011, 22:09

Probably, its time up to clean the throttle body.
Also, check the spark plug if the engine is running rich. I've heard a fellow bhpian Ikon owner say that the fuel pump is also a weak link in the car.

I had a similar issue in the 1.3 Ikon (Rocam) and it aggravated when run on LPG. Once the throttle body was cleaned, the problem vanished.

Jaggu · 25th April 2011, 22:15

To add to the ^^ fuel pump, plugs, plug wires aka coil wires, coil packs are a must check for such an issue. Have you tried ford scanners, any error codes recorded??

pkumar · 25th April 2011, 22:27

Quote:

Probably, its time up to clean the throttle body.

Pardon my ignorance, but when i remember asking the SA to clean throttle body on several occasions, he said Ikon doesnt have a throttle body assembly to be cleaned. Didnt understand what he meant !

Quote:

Also, check the spark plug if the engine is running rich.

The spark plugs where changed 1.5 years back (40k service), but the problem was there before and after the change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaggu

To add to the ^^ fuel pump, plugs, plug wires aka coil wires, coil packs are a must check for such an issue.

yeah fuel pump has been a known issue with Ikon, but does it manifest itself like this symptom? Are u recommending a complete fuel line check-up including the pump? Also, the ignition coil (another known issue with ikon) can manifest itself like this?

Quote:

Have you tried ford scanners, any error codes recorded??

Never got ecu scanned for error code.

Can continous driving affect the performance of fuel pump or coil OR if they are bad they should show up at the start of drive itself?

ravi_23 · 25th April 2011, 23:53

I had similar problem with my car too, the car used to stop with jerks and the throttle goes off...as if the petrol has finished, upon opening the bonnet I found out that the ignition coil and fuel pump had heated up more than normal.

Went to the service station and the problem was found in the ignition coil and fuel pump. Both were replaced and the vehicle is running fine now.

As you have mentioned that the car starts again after some time, that means the fault is in the fuel pump/ignition coil....as after they cool down the car starts again. So in case that happens again, do check the temp of those parts. If you find abnormally high temp then it could be the problem. An expert mechanic will be able to solve the issue properly

dhanushs · 26th April 2011, 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkumar

Pardon my ignorance, but when i remember asking the SA to clean throttle body on several occasions, he said Ikon doesnt have a throttle body assembly to be cleaned. Didnt understand what he meant !

The IKON does have a throttle body. Its rather a throttle valve(As A.S.S refers)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkumar

yeah fuel pump has been a known issue with Ikon, but does it manifest itself like this symptom? ....
..... Also, the ignition coil (another known issue with ikon) can manifest itself like this?

Trust me, the Fuel pump and the ignition coil can play exact similar tricks on you. (Especially ignition coil)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkumar

Can continous driving affect the performance of fuel pump or coil OR if they are bad they should show up at the start of drive itself?

When I had an issue with the ignition coil, it would act up only after about 100kms of hard driving. When the engine was cold - no issues at all!

EDIT: In all of my experience with the IKON's I have never met any with a sensor(hardware) error. Also, the temperature does not seem to be a correct way of determining the health of Ignition coil and Fuel pump. You might need to swap the parts and see...

tusharsethi · 26th April 2011, 01:45

I've had the same problem in my Ikon twice. Its the Ignition Coil at fault. Once i got it replaced at about 40k kms and then again it died at about 45k. They replaced it under warranty the 2nd time. Now I've driven it to about 81k Kms and haven't faced this problem. This aggravates more and more when it heats up and when it finally does give up, the car doesnt go above 40kmph and keeps misfiring. Get the coil checked at the A.S.S. It should be for around 4-5k if I remember correctly.

Cheers

SPARKled · 26th April 2011, 11:47

As other have pointed out, ignition coil may be playing a prank here. Its a fairly common problem with the Ikon. I know $any owners including myself who have faced this problem.

pkumar · 29th April 2011, 10:41

The car is at the A$$ today. They said Ignition coil is fine. Dismantled the fuel pump to see that the "coupler" is burnt. So they have suggested replacement of the fuel pump. I havent yet seen the burnt coupler, but they tell me they are 100% sure that the symptom is because of this.
What do you guys suggest?

benbsb29 · 29th April 2011, 11:13

What is the cost of the fuel pump they are quoting?
Like the others, i too would have bet on the ignition coil first, but looks like that has been eradicated.

pkumar · 29th April 2011, 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by benbsb29

What is the cost of the fuel pump they are quoting?
Like the others, i too would have bet on the ignition coil first, but looks like that has been eradicated.

11k approx for the fuel pump.
As they tell me, Ignition coil would misfire atleast slightly, at high gears low rpm, if it was faulty.

Fordmanchau · 29th April 2011, 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkumar

11k approx for the fuel pump.
As they tell me, Ignition coil would misfire atleast slightly, at high gears low rpm, if it was faulty.

Woah!!! 11k is too much. This is costly.
How much is on the odo ? Isn't your under warranty?
Can't you manage to source and install the part from Outside?

pkumar · 29th April 2011, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fordmanchau

Woah!!! 11k is too much. This is costly.
How much is on the odo ? Isn't your under warranty?
Can't you manage to source and install the part from Outside?

62k on the odo, out of warranty period. Is it possible to source Ikon parts from somewhere in bangalore? yeah, 11 k is too much.

pankaj_sachdeva · 29th April 2011, 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkumar

62k on the odo, out of warranty period. Is it possible to source Ikon parts from somewhere in bangalore? yeah, 11 k is too much.

Man, that 11k is just exorbitant amount that Ford A.S.S is quoting you. I changed the fuel pump in my ikon 1.6 in 2007 with a motorkraft one & it was around 2.7K.This was in Delhi though and I am damn sure that you can get it sourced from outside n bangy too !!!!

Why don't you try taking the car to Sejal Motors (http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/bangal...bangalore.html) and get your car checked there and inquire about the Fuel pump price too !!! This place has been recommended by few BHPians.

dhanushs · 29th April 2011, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkumar

As they tell me, Ignition coil would misfire atleast slightly, at high gears low rpm, if it was faulty.

No, when my Ignition coil failed, there was absolutely no misfiring on low rpm's. The engine would purr smoothly.

Also, if at all of its a fuel pump issue, before replacing it, I would suggest you pressure clean it(or have the A.S.S already done it?) and try again.

Again, if you have to replace it, like pankaj_sachdeva, get the Motorcraft one, which I assume is the OEM for Ford, from outside. It will cost you only half the price. IIRC, benny had changed his 5k worth ignition coil for just ~2.5k outside A.S.S.

25th April 2011, 21:59	#1
pkumar BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: bangalore Posts: 181 Thanked: 6 Times	Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long I have been facing this issue for quite a long time but never bothered to get it root-caused. Whenever i drive my car hard for around 1-1.5 hours with AC off OR 0.5 hour with AC ON, the engine starts to die. The throttle press seems to have no effect and the RPM dies. Although i have not much idea why this could be happening, here are few observations (1) While driving hard the engine revs pretty freely upto 5k rpm,so no basic issue (2) This is observed on even at night time when the intake air is cold enough. Seems unlikely that it is a case of air starvation. (3) Coolant level is perfectly fine. and the temp meter behaves itself (4) This kind of engine dieing hints at fuel starvation. Fuel pump issue? Or Rubber parts wearing out? (5) Things return to normal when car is left undriven for 5-10 minutes OR the hard driving is stopped and you live with "dieing" behavior for 5 minutes or so. What is the role continuous driving playing here? something heating up somewhere? (6) Any sensor getting heating up thus sending incorrect signal to ECU? or any error code in the ECU itself? (7) Continous 120-140kmph highway driving even for very loooong durations doesnt pose any issue till AC is off. but 120+ driving with AC ON starts posing issue after 0.5 hour or so. Thus, happens only when sudden acceleration is demanded from the car several times and often in a short duration. Or Throttle is pressed more than the engine can respond to. The car is more than 4 years old but this problem was first noticed 2 years ago. I mention this because the problem happening for even 2 year aged car could indicate that it may not be something due to wear-tear of a part, though it could still be. I am planning to visit A$$ but i dont have much hope from them. Especially when it is difficult to reproduce the problem unless i drive for one hour before going to them. Experts, please advise on what could be potential problem areas. P.s. - no mods on the car. runs on ows synthetic oil. Last edited by pkumar : 25th April 2011 at 22:05.
	() Thanks

25th April 2011, 22:09	#2
jeeva BHPian Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: DXB / Nilgiris Posts: 769 Thanked: 1,278 Times View My Garage	Re: Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long Probably, its time up to clean the throttle body. Also, check the spark plug if the engine is running rich. I've heard a fellow bhpian Ikon owner say that the fuel pump is also a weak link in the car. I had a similar issue in the 1.3 Ikon (Rocam) and it aggravated when run on LPG. Once the throttle body was cleaned, the problem vanished. Last edited by jeeva : 25th April 2011 at 22:12.
	() Thanks

25th April 2011, 22:15	#3
Jaggu Team-BHP Support Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 20,215 Thanked: 15,907 Times	Re: Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long To add to the ^^ fuel pump, plugs, plug wires aka coil wires, coil packs are a must check for such an issue. Have you tried ford scanners, any error codes recorded??
	() Thanks

25th April 2011, 23:53	#5
ravi_23 BHPian Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Bangalore Posts: 107 Thanked: 26 Times	Re: Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long I had similar problem with my car too, the car used to stop with jerks and the throttle goes off...as if the petrol has finished, upon opening the bonnet I found out that the ignition coil and fuel pump had heated up more than normal. Went to the service station and the problem was found in the ignition coil and fuel pump. Both were replaced and the vehicle is running fine now. As you have mentioned that the car starts again after some time, that means the fault is in the fuel pump/ignition coil....as after they cool down the car starts again. So in case that happens again, do check the temp of those parts. If you find abnormally high temp then it could be the problem. An expert mechanic will be able to solve the issue properly
	() Thanks

26th April 2011, 01:45	#7
tusharsethi BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Jaipur Posts: 124 Thanked: 43 Times	Re: Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long I've had the same problem in my Ikon twice. Its the Ignition Coil at fault. Once i got it replaced at about 40k kms and then again it died at about 45k. They replaced it under warranty the 2nd time. Now I've driven it to about 81k Kms and haven't faced this problem. This aggravates more and more when it heats up and when it finally does give up, the car doesnt go above 40kmph and keeps misfiring. Get the coil checked at the A.S.S. It should be for around 4-5k if I remember correctly. Cheers
	() Thanks

26th April 2011, 11:47	#8
SPARKled Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Navi Mumbai Posts: 1,110 Thanked: 656 Times	Re: Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long As other have pointed out, ignition coil may be playing a prank here. Its a fairly common problem with the Ikon. I know $any owners including myself who have faced this problem.
	() Thanks

29th April 2011, 10:41	#9
pkumar BHPian Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: bangalore Posts: 181 Thanked: 6 Times	Re: Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long The car is at the A$$ today. They said Ignition coil is fine. Dismantled the fuel pump to see that the "coupler" is burnt. So they have suggested replacement of the fuel pump. I havent yet seen the burnt coupler, but they tell me they are 100% sure that the symptom is because of this. What do you guys suggest?
	() Thanks

29th April 2011, 11:13	#10
benbsb29 Team-BHP Support Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brisbane Posts: 9,968 Thanked: 13,223 Times View My Garage	Re: Ikon(1.3) Stalling when Driven hard for long What is the cost of the fuel pump they are quoting? Like the others, i too would have bet on the ignition coil first, but looks like that has been eradicated.
	() Thanks