[AJ56]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

1. Is there a way for me to confirm if these spots are due to mud after a rainy drive (that somehow persisted even after a contact wash a few days later) or hard water spots (resulting from splashes while neighbouring cars are washed two feet away )?

2. Purus D19 is unavailable on PCC or Amazon. Do you have an alternate recommendation or a link from another trusted vendor?

3. You've elsewhere recommend an APC like Carpro MultiX. Do you suggest I get this?

4. I'd soon have a maintanence shampoo (Koch Chemie GSF), a strip shampoo (CarPro Reset), a mineral remover (Puris D19 or equivalent) and an APC. Can you explain how and in what order I'd need to use these (if at all) for (a) removal of the aforementioned spotting (b) strip washes about once a month or so (c) weekly maintenance washes?

5. I assume 4(a) and 4(b) require contact washes. Does 4(c) too require the same?

6. I'll be using PCC Chenille Microfiber Wash Mitt and PCC Edgeless Microfiber Ultra Plush 550gsm, 40X40cm for washing and CarPro Boa Microfiber 500gsm for drying (as per your recommendation elsewhere; I've a 600W leaf blower that takes too long to use). Please correct as needed.

Happy to help.

1) Rain will never cause mineral deposits like those pictured above, if your neighbours car is only 2ft from yours then it’s almost certainly from that as ground/supply water is full of minerals (you can check with a simple TDS meter.) Anything above 50 PPM will leave permanent spots if allowed to self dry.

2) I buy from the Jade Puris distributor directly in Delhi. Ravi Puris India- 8750176888.

3) An all purpose cleaner is good to have although not strictly necessary unless you want to clean interiors. Foam shampoo diluted with soft water makes for excellent clay lube and a general quick detail spray for use on paint (only wipe clean paint).

4) a) first use a pressure washer and shampoo to clean paint, dry it. Now apply D19 (wear gloves + mask) with a towel, wait 45 secs then wipe off. You can repeat this 2-3 times and all thr minerals will be gone. Rinse off the area with water and you’re done. Note: it’s a strong acid, do not atomize it by spraying as you’ll inhale all the vapours.

b) Once the paint is clean and protected, you don’t need a strip wash every month. Maybe once every 6-8 months depending on conditions. Unless you go over a month say without any washing, then you might need it sooner.

c) Except GSF, all the others are need based products. You don’t need them very often. For maintenance washing, GSF is more than enough.

5) Yes a) and b) require contact. For c) you can get away without contact but every 3-4 weeks it’s a good idea to get the accumulated road film off with a contact wash using GSF.

6) Leaf blower, you need a more powerful one to move a decent amount of air. Something like this- https://www.industrybuying.com/cordl...lGxtbE1EMAfDEj

Will add Carpro PERL to your products list, it’s a nice tyre and plastic dressing that can be diluted if you want to vary the gloss levels. Works great on interior/exterior plastics including the engine bay and tyres.

Sidenote regarding the paint spots: they may or may not be mineral based, and even if mineral based, the mineral remover will remove the minerals but it won’t address any etching in the paint itself. For this you’ll need to polish it with a fine cut polish + soft pad.

You still need to perform the mineral removal step as polishing directly over hard water spots will drive them deeper into the clearcoat making them harder to remove.

[dearchichi]

Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions in detail. It's really much appreciated. I now have a better understanding of the process and will try out the same.

The interiors of the car is still relatively good, so I'll hold on on the purchase of the APC as suggested by you.

Originally Posted by AJ56

b) Once the paint is clean and protected, you don’t need a strip wash every month. Maybe once every 6-8 months depending on conditions. Unless you go over a month say without any washing, then you might need it sooner.

I don't plan on applying protection (no waxes or sealants) unless I get the paint to be as clean as possible. This might take a few cycles of washing for me to learn to do so. Hence the question about strip washes every month.

Originally Posted by AJ56

Will add Carpro PERL to your products list

Sure. You had recommended it earlier, and it's already on its way.

Thanks again, mate. You are a real asset here at team-bhp!

[dearchichi]

Hi Anish. I have a couple of quick questions:

1.

Originally Posted by AJ56

For maintenance washing, GSF is more than enough.

PCC has sent me GFX instead of GSF. Is this just as good, or must I return this for GSF?

2. WRT foam washes, a video

video

on YouTube recommends that we rinse, foam, rinse again, foam again and only then work with the wash mitts (as against rinsing, foaming and washing with the mitts). The extra rinse step would wash off the loosened grit resulting from the first foam application off the panels. Do you recommend this?

3. How do we test compatibility of a product (foaming shampoo.etc.) on our panels before use as the GFX (and GSF) label asks us to do?

Thank you for your time.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

Hi Anish. I have a couple of quick questions:

1.

PCC has sent me GFX instead of GSF. Is this just as good, or must I return this for GSF?

2. WRT foam washes, a video on YouTube recommends that we rinse, foam, rinse again, foam again and only then work with the wash mitts (as against rinsing, foaming and washing with the mitts). The extra rinse step would wash off the loosened grit resulting from the first foam application off the panels. Do you recommend this?

3. How do we test compatibility of a product (foaming shampoo.etc.) on our panels before use as the GFX (and GSF) label asks us to do?

Thank you for your time.

1)It’s the same product - GSF. They’ve just added a Christmas fragrance to it, you can keep it.

3) To check compatibility just apply on a small panel like your fender and after a minute rinse off. It’s largely a disclaimer as diluted pH neutral shampoos are the most gentle/harmless chemical one can possibly use on their paint.

2) No, listen carefully, what Yvan is saying is Foam-Rinse-Foam-Wipe with mitts-Rinse. There is no rinse in the beginning. You straight up foam a dirty car, let it dwell and then rinse thoroughly before foaming it again and do the contact step, finally rinsing a second time to get the soap off.

What’s he’s responding to, are people skipping steps by just foaming up a dirty car and going straight to wiping it down with the mitts before rinsing. He’s cautioning against doing this and I’ll agree with him 100% here. You need to get the muck off the paint before touching it, foam or no foam.

The reason I follow Rinse (very thoroughly)-Foam-Wipe with mitts-Rinse is that I’ve tried both methods over many years and I’ve found no added safety benefit to foaming a car twice. I don’t make this claim lightly as I’ve followed the above method for thousands of washes over many years on my own cars without inflicting any damage (not even fine swirling.) Given how sensitive paint is, I can safely say if any method is off by even 1%, given enough time it’ll show up as fine swirls on the paint.

I’ll also explain why there is no added safety to the other method. Run this test yourself at home, take your bonnet, rinse one half very thoroughly with water, on the other half spray foam and let it dwell for a minute, now rinse it thoroughly with water.

Do not touch your paint at any point otherwise the test won’t be fair. Dry only using air as wiping with a towel will clean both sides of the bonnet equally, again invalidating your test. Take a bright flashlight or park outside on a bright day and inspect the paint, you won’t see any difference between the two halves of your bonnet.

Why? The reason is simple, pH-neutral snow foam is not designed to do any cleaning, its main job is to add tons of lubrication so that our mitts glide over the paint instead of digging into it. All the dust and grit removal is being done by your pressure washer, and here flow rates are important, the higher the flow, the better and quicker the cleaning.

(The reason chemists design daily use maintenance shampoo this way is to ensure it doesn’t chemically attack any wax or sealant one may have applied to their paint, as chemicals cannot differentiate between protection and contamination on the paint, a strong cleaner will attack and break down whatever it hits.)

Now, if you were to repeat this experiment on an extremely contaminated vehicle with bug guts and dried bird droppings, and you used a strong acid based or alkaline shampoo (both ideally). Then yes, the side which got hit by these strong solvents would look cleaner (not perfect, but slightly cleaner). You still need to touch paint (contact wash) if you want it perfect though.

Will add that unless your car is coated, avoid dropping below 3 or going above 11 on the pH scale as paint can suffer permanent damage if repeatedly exposed to such extremes. Ironically, if your car is coated, it’ll clean so well with just pressurised water you won’t need such harsh cleaners to begin with. A good tip is to run away from any shampoo that’s using the words ‘touchless’ on the label, as these use very strong solvents to clean paint without contact.

[dearchichi]

Originally Posted by AJ56

1)It’s the same product - GSF. They’ve just added a Christmas fragrance to it, you can keep it.

3) To check compatibility just apply on a small panel like your fender and after a minute rinse off. It’s largely a disclaimer as diluted pH neutral shampoos are the most gentle/harmless chemical one can possibly use on their paint.

Sure, will do so.

The detailed answer for #2 was illuminating. I assumed the initial rinse was a given since it's obvious that it'd remove a large percentage of the contaminants and grit off the surfaces. Even local car wash services do the same when it'd been economical for them to skip it.

Is the below summary correct?

1. WRT maintenance foaming products like GSF: they are generally pH neutral to avoid stripping waxes and sealants off the paint. Hence, they also don't loosen up or lift much of the contaminants off the surfaces. Their main job is to provide lubrication for contact washes. That said, foaming up during maintenance non-contact washes is recommended since they tend to loosen up or lift at least some contamination off the surfaces that could be easily rinsed-off later.

2. WRT stripping foaming products like CarPro Reset: they are generally acidic or alkaline to get agressive with contaminants and loosen up or lift much more of them off the surfaces. With this method, it'd be safer to follow the rinse-foam-rinse-foam-contact wash-rinse method since the second rinse would preclude abrading loosened grit across the surfaces during the contact step.


Thank you as ever.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

Sure, will do so.

The detailed answer for #2 was illuminating. I assumed the initial rinse was a given since it's obvious that it'd remove a large percentage of the contaminants and grit off the surfaces. Even local car wash services do the same when it'd been economical for them to skip it.

Is the below summary correct?

1. WRT maintenance foaming products like GSF: they are generally pH neutral to avoid stripping waxes and sealants off the paint. Hence, they also don't loosen up or lift much of the contaminants off the surfaces. Their main job is to provide lubrication for contact washes. That said, foaming up during maintenance non-contact washes is recommended since they tend to loosen up or lift at least some contamination off the surfaces that could be easily rinsed-off later.

2. WRT stripping foaming products like CarPro Reset: they are generally acidic or alkaline to get agressive with contaminants and loosen up or lift much more of them off the surfaces. With this method, it'd be safer to follow the rinse-foam-rinse-foam-contact wash-rinse method since the second rinse would preclude abrading loosened grit across the surfaces during the contact step.

Thank you as ever.

I’m quite certain local car washes aren’t giving it anywhere near this level of thought

No, Yvan is quite clear on not rinsing prior to the first foam application as water messes up the panel impact ratio (PIR) by over diluting the already diluted snow foam, thereby reducing its cleaning ability.

There is another school of thought which believes that pressurised water alone on a dirty surface will potentially scratch, my experience says otherwise and I don’t believe this.

1) Correct on the first part, I never bother foaming unless I’m doing a contact wash as the results are the same, again test it yourself you’ll see why I’m saying this. The shampoo doesn’t help lift anything unless you touch it with mitts.

2) Reset is pH-neutral and as such is quite low on the scale of shampoo aggression (chemical). It’s also designed to be used as a contact wash (not touchless), so doing the second foam step initially has no added safety benefit.

It’s a good thing that’s it not super aggressive like certain shampoos which are designed for large scale touchless cleaning as they chemically shock the paint in order to achieve this.

Regarding safety, I’ve never seen paint getting damaged, irrespective of how dirty it was even with something as mild as GSF, provided you rinse thoroughly and use multiple mitts you’ll be fine.

There is a point to be made about not using very aggressive chemicals and rather having a balanced approach of cleaners which are strong enough but not excessively harsh, followed by light abrasion with a polish to truly deep clean a paint surface safely.

Still, always test and don’t take anyone’s word for it. Park your car and let it get reasonably dirty. Now perform the touchless rinse on one half of your bonnet and touchless foam + rinse on the other half. After drying inspect the paint. If you see any improvement on the side you did use shampoo, go ahead and use the 2 foam method.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by AJ56

There is another school of thought which believes that pressurised water alone on a dirty surface will potentially scratch ...

That is what my instinct says, and I think a lot of people would say so. But my instinct does not have your experience, and I'll gladly take your word for it.

Would you change your method at all for a worst-case situation? For example, a car which is covered in highly abrasive dust from brick and/or steel grinding. Not so uncommon in the vicinity of a building site.

[Vulken Auto]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

Sure, will do so.

1. WRT maintenance foaming products like GSF: they are generally pH neutral to avoid stripping waxes and sealants off the paint. Hence, they also don't loosen up or lift much of the contaminants off the surfaces. Their main job is to provide lubrication for contact washes. That said, foaming up during maintenance non-contact washes is recommended since they tend to loosen up or lift at least some contamination off the surfaces that could be easily rinsed-off later.

I differ the statements made. Attached some description from Sonax Website.
I have used Ceramic coatings on my car before. Have Used waterless wash, Jopasu Blah Blah but by end of year I can see swirl marks , lines on the paint. It was a large white car. I Used this car for vacations only. Remaining times it was parked indoor with a TPH cover.

Now I own a 4 month old Jimny, I park it under the tree , in rain but it has limited marks on it. All I do is a contact wash thrice a week with sonax, and apply normal wax once a month. I use some clean water absorption towels and some microfiber towels. I clean the towels with care. Wash sequence is water spray(not pressure wash)-Sonax shampoo twice- water spray-drying. It a black car but it works. I use two cloths each for shampoo/drying, one for paint part and one for non paint part. I intend to do compounding once in a year. See the results it just outstanding. Minute swirls will be visible only when parked under real sun or when a light flashes on car in night which is very rare in my case.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

That is what my instinct says, and I think a lot of people would say so. But my instinct does not have your experience, and I'll gladly take your word for it.

Would you change your method at all for a worst-case situation? For example, a car which is covered in highly abrasive dust from brick and/or steel grinding. Not so uncommon in the vicinity of a building site.

Not at all, it’s the safest way to remove anything from paint, even if it’s glass/steel dust. Think of it this way, any other method of removal (except air possibly), will cause even greater harm than anything water is capable of by its own.

Even on cars with dried cement residue, pressurised water never causes damage, the exact mechanics of why that is I can’t fully explain. If you’ve done something thousands of times and it works every single time, I have no reason to doubt it going forward.

Logically speaking, driving a very dirty car very fast or driving fast in heavy dust conditions (all of Gurgaon basically) should also cause damage as you’re essentially sandblasting the front of your vehicle. But nothing happens in reality, or if some damage is done, it’s completely invisible to the human eye, under 0.05mm (50 microns) in size.

Originally Posted by Vulken Auto

I differ the statements made. Attached some description from Sonax Website.
I have used Ceramic coatings on my car before. Have Used waterless wash, Jopasu Blah Blah but by end of year I can see swirl marks , lines on the paint. It was a large white car. I Used this car for vacations only. Remaining times it was parked indoor with a TPH cover.

I intend to do compounding once in a year.

Please be careful of marketing by the mfg, any mfg no matter how good their products are, and always run your own tests, on your car with your unique conditions that it drives in. Sonax Polymer Netshield sealant comes to mind, claims 6 months, lasts around 20-25 days (tested 3 times in different temperatures.) Try Koch Chemie GSF you’ll never go back to Sonax/3M, Adams Megafoam is also a great shampoo.

Waterless washing, Jopasu dusting and the most damaging of all- that car cover (no matter how soft), will all cause swirls in short order on soft paint, despite whatever coating it’s protected with.

Please don’t use a rubbing compound every year, Jimmy barely gets 35-38 microns of clearcoat to begin with and a good chunk of this will anyway be lost to UV and weathering over the years, wilfully hitting it with heavy abrasives every year will dramatically reduce its life and ability to protect the inner layers.

[Vulken Auto]

Detailing is 11 billion dollar market expected to grow to 14 billion this year. I have used industry leading brands for 4 years and found its just waste of time and money for an average person like me who has a Mercedes , Innova , Creta and jimmy in my garage. A simple shampoo, wax and couple of cloths can go a long way. I have precise knowledge on coatings and painting Technology as I once was a production manager and I really don't compete or encourage half knowledge claims in a public forum. I was just quoting a statement which can be wrong and quite misleading. ''Ph neutral has nothing to do with dirt removal''.

[dearchichi]

Originally Posted by AJ56

There is a point to be made about not using very aggressive chemicals and rather having a balanced approach of cleaners which are strong enough but not excessively harsh, followed by light abrasion with a polish to truly deep clean a paint surface safely.

Thanks Anish.

Actually, it's all a bit confusing to me at this point.

1. I assumed shampoos clean at least a bit, but it looks like pH neutral ones only lubricates? So, these don't have surfactants?

2. Koch Chemie AS is pH neutral like GSF. How are they different then?

3. CarPro Reset is pH neutral too but has alkaline-like cleaning power? So, it's pH neutral only to paint/waxes/sealants but not to grime? If this is pH neutral, how is it different from GSF and AS? What other specification do we need to look at to conclude it's higher potency against grit (apart from their description)?

4. The usage instructions of Koch Chemie GSF (and CarPro Reset) skip the initial rinse and recommend foaming followed by washing. Won't this lead to scratched paint?

5.

For c) you can get away without contact but every 3-4 weeks it’s a good idea to get the accumulated road film off with a contact wash using GSF.

So, maintenance contact-less washes can be done without any pH-neutral foaming, but such foaming is required every few weeks for maintenance contact washes?

(I had assumed foaming is always needed, with an extra contact step every few weeks).

Looks like I need to get a degree in paint maintenance to make sense of all this!

Anyway, I'll read up more and try to get answers to the above.

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by dearchichi

Thanks Anish.

Actually, it's all a bit confusing to me at this point.

1. I assumed shampoos clean at least a bit, but it looks like pH neutral ones only lubricates? So, these don't have surfactants?

2. Koch Chemie AS is pH neutral like GSF. How are they different then?

3. CarPro Reset is pH neutral too but has alkaline-like cleaning power? So, it's pH neutral only to paint/waxes/sealants but not to grime? If this is pH neutral, how is it different from GSF and AS? What other specification do we need to look at to conclude it's higher potency against grit (apart from their description)?

4. The usage instructions of Koch Chemie GSF (and CarPro Reset) skip the initial rinse and recommend foaming followed by washing. Won't this lead to scratched paint?

5. So, maintenance contact-less washes can be done without any pH-neutral foaming, but such foaming is required every few weeks for maintenance contact washes?

(I had assumed foaming is always needed, with an extra contact step every few weeks).

Looks like I need to get a degree in paint maintenance to make sense of all this!

Anyway, I'll read up more and try to get answers to the above.

1) The pH value is just the number the number of Hydrogen ions present in a solution, it’s a solid indicator of cleaning potential (on both ends) but far from the only one. There are many other factors that make up a chemical which determine how potent it will be and against what type of contamination.

This is why we have purpose made strong alkaline cleaners for grease and grime removal and strong acid based ones meant to attack mineral/salt deposits and stains, also known as hard water spot removers in the industry, like Puris D19 which has a pH of 1.

pH neutral shampoos definitely have surfactants, but they don’t do much until we have some kind of surface contact/agitation with mitts. Exactly how much they clean I can’t say as I’m not a chemist, but visually they don’t do much unless we touch the surface with a mitt.

Yes, their main job is lubrication during the contact step, which is why they are not marketed as a touchless wash shampoos.

Take another example, imagine you have diesel on your hands, if you wet your hand then apply liquid soap/foam to it but don’t rub with your other hand (zero agitation), now you rinse off the soap with water and dry with air.

That soap will do very little to remove any diesel and your hand will not really be clean. Agitation is what’s needed if complete removal is wanted.

(It’s a rough example as our maintenance type snow foams are nowhere near as potent as hand wash soaps are.)

2) No, GSF has a pH of 7.5 and is nuetral, AutoShampoo has a pH of 9 and is slightly more alkaline. They write the pH value of each product next to the name abbreviation on the label.

3) You’re confusing being pH-neutral with paint stripping ability, a solvent can very well be pH-neutral and still have strong wax and sealant removal ability, like Reset. In my experience it’s a moderate cleaner and removes weak waxes and grime in equal measure but it’s nowhere near as strong as say an engine degreaser which is extremely alkaline.

It’s very different from GSF in that it’s a stronger cleaner, AS is somewhere in between GSF and Reset cleaning ability wise.

I’ll give another example of a very strong solvent that’s also pH-neutral, Carpro TRIX. It’s a tar and ferrous remover, stuff will melt tar and rust contamination like no tomorrow. Will even damage paint if you let it dry without wiping and will strip even the strongest of waxes and sealants. Yet it’s pH-neutral.

There is no unified scale of chemical potency if that’s what you’re asking, reason being chemical A may be very strong against a certain type of stain/contamination but completely useless against another.

As consumers, we pay top dollar for well
engineered detailing chemicals from good brands, formulated by chemists with decades in the industry.

As long we stick to the right type of product for each job, the risk is minimal. Always use a product the way it’s intended and as you gain experience you’ll realise that’s it’s quite safe and even if you mess up, there is often a remedy to correct the damage.

4) Always rinse, no matter what the shampoo label says. Whether you foam and rinse or straight up rinse like I do, never skip this step before touching the paint.

5) Correct, just water and air in between the contact washes (paint has to be coated/extremely hydrophobic for it to work correctly.) I follow the same with my cars and I can get a 90%+ clean without messing with my foam cannon.

I had even shown how to do this with a short clip, it’s probably buried in this thread or might be another thread. This is after two days of driving, reasonably dirty-

https://youtu.be/rgpVZrfYAKM

[Thad E Ginathom]

According to my school lessons, soap has a special ability. It is a molecule with two arms: one arm hates water and grabs onto the dirt, while the other arm loves water and grabs onto water. This is why, when one uses soap, eg to wash hands, and rinses, the dirt is washed off. Detergent, I am not so sure about, but I thin kit works in a similar way.

I also know that soap is alkaline. I remember that from the same school lessons, and I know it because, if I had acid splashes on my skin, the first destination was the soap. Acid neutralised.

Now, I think maybe (far from sure) that some hair shampoos are made slightly acid, because the pH of our skin is slightly acid.

What I am saying is that it is the molecular action ( dirt<---*--->water ) that does the cleaning. The acidity or alkalinity of the cleaner is incidental.

This really is my schoolboy learning, from sixty years ago. Am I wrong? Am I missing something?

<Cross-posted with AJ56 above: just reading that>

AJ56 I think you have said a similar thing. Different chemicals might be used to attack, eg salts with acid or grease with alkaline, but simple cleaning ability is not a factor of the pH scale.

If it was, we could be using caustic soda (drain cleaner, and it will melt your flesh too) or concentrated acids (will corrode/burn your flesh) which would be very dangerous and damaging and no one would do that.

[AJ56]

Wanted to highlight how nearly every new car is full of minor to moderate paint defects straight from the factory, this is irrespective of price. I have observed many people think high end cars will be painted/finished better, this is sadly not true in most cases.

https://youtu.be/iuDLyquXWHg

(McLaren is much better, Ferrari is one of the worst, Porsche and Lamborghini are somewhere in between finish wise.)

[smsrini]

Anyone have experience with ProKlear raw extreme CRC ceramic waterless wash concentrate ? https://proklear.in/crc-sio2-waterless-wash-concentrate

I've used their regular waterless wash concentrate and was happy with it. Asking about this ceramic variant.

thanks