[AutoIndian]

Originally Posted by asbalaji

Now Vista clutch is as soft as Figo's clutch (my in-law's car). Like Good year useless tyres which is the reason for wobbling, side pulling after few 1000 kms, less quality rubber beadings etc.,.. otherwise I am one happy owner of Vista.. Balaji

Goodyear is not such a good quality tyre & many members here on TBHP itself have complaints @ them. My Indica OEMs were Bridgestones S322 (tubed type). They lasted me for 62K kms & when I discarded them there was still good tread left on them. I then went in for Michelin XM1+ tubeless on alloys & they have served me well for the last 32K kms & still look like new.

I would strongly recommend you to discard your Goodyears at the first opportunity & go in for Michelins or Bridgestones.

[AutoIndian]

Just got an update mail from Ranjan that the left pulling problem of his brand new Manza has finally been resolved (courtesy TIUG - Tata Indica User's Group). Reproducing the extract below: Caution - Long mail

Quote:

"Problems, Problems & more Problems when the very people who are suppose to diagnose the problems say its not a problem but normal for a car to go left due to road camber then you can never ever solve a problem, that's what has been happening last 1 month since day I bought manza aura abs as you all know.

Last week I have been quite active on the internet to find the root cause of left pulling & I was not ready to believe that a car will pull to left due to 2-5° camber in the road why? bcoz I have been driving on the very same roads all these years & no car behaved like this manza even the new Indica my father bought a week ago (before My manza) does not behave like that then why Manza?

Last week after Tata engineer could not pin point the problem I became even more desperate to find the solution I have been stopping manza owners on the road/restaurant/highway joints wherever I spot a manza & ask them about this problem in their manza & have found that many manza owners are having this problem with no solution but I also found 2 manza users who said that their manza goes perfectly straight. So Best was to test drive their manza & see myself , I drove their manza & yes their manza goes straight like any other car should actually go straight.

So irrespective what Tata motors say the manza can go straight too if anyone within tata motors is willing to consider left pulling as a problem rather than saying this is normal & happens due to road camber.

Since 2002 I have been part of Tata Indica Users Group (TIUG) on yahoogroups & Mr. Achin Juneja an active & quite knowledgeable member have been reading my manza post with keen observation including questioning me on the alignment reports & he was kind enough to talk to me personally & wanted to inspect my manza himself.

Just few days ago he had hired a manza taxi (March 2011 Make) & he asked the driver if the car has left pulling problem the driver showed him by taking the hand off steering on straight road that indeed the car moves perfectly straight on the road so I felt YES then even my manza can go straight now if the problem can be pin pointed.

I decided to meet Mr. Achin Juneja & went to Delhi at his residence, our original plan was to test the manza on 2 very new & flat roads but just as he started driving manza we had some patch of road with path holes & the car was driven over it in 2nd gear, his keen eye observed the left pulling clearly with steering loosely going right / left (This is the 1st time test on such a patch as I only drive on expressway 95%) then further on the way to test drive road he passed the car on a speed breaker & the car again puled to left. Remember the left puling problem was reduced 60-70% even then it did that left pull as it crossed the breaker. I had never tested this earlier.

He said we don't need any further test drive its proven to him that indeed its pulling to left even after 70% correction now he suggested me that we take the car to one of his best workshops in Gurgaon where he knows the team member personally & vouched for their expertise. The idea was to consult him to at least pin point the source of the problem.

From Vasant kunj to gurgaon we have a fairly new road & the car was driven by both of us & the left problem remained as it is. We reached "Gurgaon car scanners" (its a tata workshop) in 30 mins & I must say that nobody would want to get the car serviced there. Its an old (or may be oldest in NCR) tata workshop with not many automatic machines & no show off business at all, no beauties to welcome you, but its a workshop meant for "real repairs" hence they don't need all that show off.

Achin Uncle (as called by the staff) was received very warmly by the staff & Ram Singh head of the team was called & briefed about the left pulling problem & the history along with failed attempts. Ram Singh decided to take a test drive & was quite well convinced of the left pull problem & said that this cant be normal at all.

Mind you the workshop has no automation except a car jacking up platform, he took the car to a manual old style pit & inspected the car after 30 mins he asked us to sit in the waiting room & he will open the tyres to which I refused as to not to fiddle bcoz 70% problem is corrected so don't disturb it further.

He said sir your problem is not 70% corrected but another problem seems to be created, he pointed out to the geometrical difference in front 2 tyres due to cross member shifting. He raised his objection & said a car needs to be 1st corrected for its geometry (2 wrongs cant make 1 right together) Well I shared my concern both with Ram Singh & with Mr. Achin Juneja. Our Original plan was not to fiddle with the car but to seek his opinion & pin point the problem.






Ram Singh said the problem can be found easily but before that he has to get to default settings, after a long discussion we decided to let give a chance. From the glass window we kept discussing & watched Ram Singh & his team taking measurement with thread & seek balance in alignment (They have no modern gadgetry). Thrice during his investigation we both went out to know if he has found any root cause, he smiled & said we will find it for sure else we would have not opened the wheels.

1. They took the 2 front tyre for wheel balancing & swapped left /right went for a test drive car still pulled to left

2. Cross member was adjusted back to factory setting which was measured by thread method for correcting the geometry.

3. 2nd attempt of thread measurement were done to cross check & went for a test drive left pulling became worse as it was in original manza
4. then they found the probable cause to be the left "Strut" which holds the entire suspension.
see this image for reference
http://www.instructables.com/files/d...FWC.MEDIUM.jpg

He told us that he will be changing the entire left strut assembly. I was not at all ready for all this major change since knuckle/lower arm/ wheel/disk & suspension all will be taken off (Its a complex assembly).

To explain our doubt he got a new strut (complete assembly as seen in the image) & explained that misalignment in this strut will cause caster to be out causing left pull, (caster is not adjustable in manza or any front wheel car hence caster is dependent on the strut angle). He assured us that if after changing this problem not solved he will get the car back to the same geometry as before & fit back the old strut.

Faulty Strut has a sticker manufactured by Tenneco Rc India Ltd
http://www.tenneco.com/OriginalEquipment/RideControl/ProductsandTechnologies/index.html



Mr. Achin had pointed out twice in last 1 month asking me question as to how in before report caster was out & suddenly the after report shows its perfect where as caster adjustment is not possible. I could not answer him that time bcoz I don't really understood all this technical things then. Same was pointed out for SAI values to which I had no clue.

We were feeling hungry by this time as we had not planned the day at the workshop but resisted to move out in anticipation of getting the car fixed soon so sat hungry there whole day having tea & snacks.

Over 2 hrs work & 2 test drive without us Ram Singh confirmed left pull is gone now but the car is now puling to right which they again adjusted & sent the car for wheel alignment to another shop. By evening the car was ready as per Ram Singh & he broke the news to us that the MANZA moves Straight NOW & we can test drive it. The wheel alignment report was not given & I don't know what kind of machine was used to check & make alignment but driving it to believe was the best way to know it.

We went for the drive & yes the car was moving almost 80-100mts straight on the road 1st time ever since I bought this car. Could not believe the nightmare of driving a constant left pulling car was getting over. We came back to the workshop & Mr. Achin Juneja discussed in detail with Ram Singh to understand the problem & inspected the faulty area of the strut. Now if you remember left lower arm was changed, then knuckle was changed , then shockers were changed along with the shocker bushes, but strut was not at all on the list to be a probable cause. (all these parts are mounted on the strut) I guess strut also controls the SAI values which were going way off in 2 alignment reports to which Mr. Achin asked me as to why they are so different & in next report how SAI has been corrected, I could not answer that at all as all these words are too new to me & I don't even fully understand them.

For me it was a "big moment" which actually should have been on the day I bought the car but it came quite late courtesy Tata Motors. I asked the entire team who worked on my car to be in line for a winning moment photograph, Ram Singh humbly said "Sir this is our daily job does it need a photograph" I said Yes it does indeed.

We thanked the entire team & took the car out & went straight for a longer test drive the car moved almost straight & I can confirm that now after shifting back the cross member to original position the problem is 90% corrected & on flat roads the car has driven absolutely straight up to 1km, YES 1 km without me touching the steering on expressway (Don't try this its dangerous if your cars are not properly aligned) While driving on expressway it was the 1st time ever that I realized how relaxed now the driving was at speeds of 100-120kmph.

Why 90% correction only??
The steering still seems to have some loose /free moment, I tested on a bad road & steering rolls left/right by 1-2 inches which I don't think is normal so the steering having some extra input still remains to be investigated & I am quite hopeful that this problem can be sorted out to 100% perfection. If needed I will post a video of steering roll for members to seek advice.

Its been proven over & over again that machines are as good as the humans working with it, technologically we might be advancing but unfortunately we are not investing enough in human brain power which is crucial for perfection.

Perfection is not something you go & buy in a shop or a mall it comes only to few who are blessed with crazy brains & one of those crazy person is Mr. Achin Juneja an elderly gentleman whom I can say is passionately in love with automobile problems & its solutions. Pardon my statement but I am honored to meet a mad person like Mr. Achin Juneja who felt the pain of my problems as his own & asked me to get the car to him for a test drive, then further took me to "Gurgaon Car scanners" personally leaving all his day work, (this was not planned) & sat there whole day with no lunch till late evening & got the problem solved as if it was his own car & his own problems.

Genius is another name of madness but to be genius madness is an essential component & he does possess that element of crazy madness else why would someone leave his whole day work for someone else he has just met on the internet via forum & get connected to root out the problem.

Thank You Mr. Achin Juneja!
If Tata Motors can have few cloned copies of you they might rule the world in automobile industry.

Update from Tata Factory
Now all this while Tata engineer Mr. Mayur Vyas has been updating me on the discussion he had with the design team & reported to me that the cars they tested in the plant also does pull to left & this is normal. For the official version of tata motors he asked me to contact Ms Sumedha Singh CSM Tata Motors which I will be meeting tomorrow.

To me this is completely unacceptable & since I have met so many manza owners now who have exactly the same left puling problem I feel sad that Tata motors has let so many manza run on the road with serious problem which can in many case lead to an accident. I hope they understand the gravity of the problem & sort this out right at the manufacturing level, else it will bring bad name to otherwise a good INDIAN car, YES its a good car & I hope it to remain good for years to come.

Overhead expanses
Few things can never be compensated by money & one of them is my time & the agony this problem brought to me & my family.

1. Loss of Income
Last 40 days I have not stepped into my office & have not been doing any work, I still consider myself to be lucky to do all that time devotion to solve out a major problem in manza.
2. Loss of holiday & additional expanses due
Hotel booking had to be canceled then later we shifted our destination & booked again on the way to Nainital manza broke down & had to call a taxi from the resort, I had to come back up to haldwani where the problem was solved but by then I already had hired a taxi at the cost of 18000/- for the rest of the family members to move without me, I did not want their holiday to be spoiled.
3. Mental agony
I cant say how many sleepless nights I had in last 40 days & sat long hrs on computer to find solution & interact with other members on many automotive forums, I see the positive side of this agony & this has given me many good knowledgeable people whom I would have not known otherwise.

Hope tata motors understand that such experience from the manza customers will not go down well for future prospective buyers.

Thanks to all those who have spent time reading my long mails all this while & then trying to understand my problem & guiding me to finally solve the problem.

Regards
Ranjan"

Unquote

[harryms]

Originally Posted by AutoIndian

Just got an update mail from Ranjan that the left pulling problem of his brand new Manza has finally been resolved (courtesy TIUG - Tata Indica User's Group). Reproducing the extract below: Caution - Long mail

Quote:

"Problems, Problems & more Problems when the very people who are suppose to diagnose the problems say its not a problem but normal for a car to go left due to road camber then you can never ever solve a problem, that's what has been happening last 1 month since day I bought manza aura abs as you all know.

Last week I have been quite active on the internet to find the root cause of left pulling & I was not ready to believe that a car will pull to left due to 2-5° camber in the road why? bcoz I have been driving on the very same roads all these years & no car behaved like this manza even the new Indica my father bought a week ago (before My manza) does not behave like that then why Manza?

Dear Ranjan,

I really appreciate your dedication to resolve the issue with MANZA. Tata motors should be ashamed now, this information what you have posted will make them MOUTH SHUT. They just tell every customer that the issue is by default. Are they so dump to say regarding this serious issue with the car. Did tata make the product to perform like this. any way i think its useless to speak more about tata motors after reading your posting.
Tata motors should have some one having brains in their technical team. Mr. Achin Juneja was able to troubleshoot the root cause of the issue without any modern tools, i really appreciate Mr. Achin Juneja.

i just want to say, Computers can process millions of data with in a second but we human beings have to apply the logic to program the computer. so its false to believe that if you have technology you can fix all issues, for fixing issues you have to apply your thought and experience.

Its easy to say MANZA comes with the default left pulling issue.
But its hard to find the root cause by applying your knowledge.

i really thank you all for finding the root cause and resolving the issues. I am sure many MANZA owners will have their issue resolve after reading ranjan's mail.

thank you all..

[AutoIndian]

Further updates (Courtesy: TIUG)

Quote:

Ok here is the video for all to believe that the car actually moves straight.

YouTube - ‪manza misalignmnet corrected after strut suspension changed‬‏

Had a meeting at oberoi motors noida where all the attempts were made to sort out the problem but could not solve. Yesterday Mr. Rajgoplan GM of Oberai motors had called me to know how the problem has been sorted out I gave him a brief description he asked me to get the car for alignment checking so they can just be sure that nothing is abnormal.

I went there at 11.30 & met the Tata csm Ms Sumedha whom I asked if I can have the official version of the finding so we can conclude the matter but she too 1st wanted to know how the problem has been sorted out so I briefed her about the workshop & the method they used to find the faulty strut. I asked
her to accompany me on an official test drive so either we conclude that tata manza can drive straight or we conclude to their old stance that due to road camber manza will go straight for 20-30 mts only then will pull to left.

She suggested that before we move out on a test drive we should at least take the alignment reading on the same machine.
Car was taken to the platform reading taken Toe value showed out of the range, that confused her how can a car be moving straight if these values are out, so the car was taken off & reloaded on to the platform just to test the repeatability of the alignment machine, total 4 times this test was done & she
asked & even I wondered why is the machine not giving the same results every time the car is mounted on the platform.

The DET confirmed that slight variation will always be there but it should not go off the limits, I was surprised with this findings bcoz before 16th june this very alignment machine was checked for calibration & only then I took the car there as it was confirmed that the Alge alignment machine is now calibrated.

Is this a expected behiviour of a machine?
its like you measure 1 kg iron in Bangalore its 1kg & you measure the same 1kg iron in Jaipur it becomes 960gms then you measure the same 1kg iron in Delhi it becomes 1080gms. How could that be possible?

Now after being aware of alignmnet values out of range I took the tata team (Mr. Rajgoplan, Ms Sumedha, DET Oberai motors & myself) for a test drive, DET who has been attending the car started the drive & after 15kms he confirmed that yes the problem has been quite reduced & car fairly is moving
straight to quite some distance, I took over from there & then drove another 30 kms round trip from Pari chowk on greater noida expressway.

I drove at 80kmph car went almost straight on the road with slight left pull then we approached the speeds of 100-120 where I again pointed towards the steering left / right roll & then hit teh straight road patch starting from sector 93 car perfectly moved almost a km with 4 people loaded took the car to 120+kmph car moved straight but left pull becomes evident due to steering vibration.

Right before pari chowk almost 5kms road is perfect straight & had a best of the drive at 90-100kmph all were convinced that YES the manza can go straight & was quite evident to all of the tata members, remember they had witnessed the left pulling on the very same roads too.

I gave the car to Ms Sumedha so she herself can feel the straight driving & she drove at 80kmph & yes the car moved straight she felt the steering wobble at 100kmph but the DET says this is due to the roads & its normal I again disagree to this behaviour but I am ready to drive another 1000kms so the tyre can set according to the road camber then it might improve.

At last Mr Rajgoplan himself drove the car 80-100kmph & car remained straight in the lane they all agreed that in spite the toe in values shown out the car happily moves straight for quite a distance. Now the unanswered question remained that how is the car going straight when the values of toe in shows out?
We came back to the workshop & Mr. Rajgoplan said that the strut is not even covered under warranty, so how come the workshop changed it, none of the tata team present with me has ever heard of "Gurgaon Car scanners" they confirmed from me twice about the name & I then told them that best is to check the car history from their Tata CSM network, they took the printout & yes they got all the details of the work done at Gurgaon car scanners.

Not convinced with the alignment reports Ms Sumedha wanted to change it to default which I refused as of now & told here that let it run for another 1000kms then we will see if there is any abnormal tyre wear, her concern was exactly that if the report is showing it out it might create other problem later on hence she wanted to redo the alignment as per the recommended values, but as of now she took photos of the 4 tyre so we can match after 1000kms run.

The meeting remained inconclusive bcoz the test drive shows straight moving car (4 people tested) but alignment reports show toe in out of range, so how is then the car moving straight remains a mystery to them hence there is no official version from Tata motors to my question,
"Can manza drive straight or not?"







I have posted this topic with images inline for easy reading on another automotive forum along with the alignment reports you can read it there if you like at the following link.

http://*******.com/5wmuf9g

Unquote

[humyum]

AutoIndia: Long ordeal, Firstly I absolutely do not agree with anyone changing the cross member position in the car. Its a 'Jugaad' and should have not been approved by you. Someone on this very forum had the cross member position changed by the company without the owner being notified and Maruti had to get him a brand new Swift Diesel. Factory Specs always for anything.

Also I tend to agree with Ms Sumedha. The car should go straight being in the 'alignment' constraints set by the company otherwise the handling, braking and tyre wear parameters will change. Your car maybe is going straight now because 'its out of alignment'. I would say its not solving your problem, its just re routing it for now. Don't let this pass.

Why don't you push for a new Manza ?

[AutoIndian]

Further updates from Ranjan: Quote

On 12 july 2011
I got a call from tata CSM Ms. Sumedha asking me to get the car for investigation since 2 people are coming from Pune plant. I had planned 2 meeting for the next day so I could not confirm that if I can make it or not, talked to the client & 1 client agreed to prepone the meeting another denied so had to leave 1 meeting (My work has been suffering already but I decided to take the car to oberai motors) They wanted to arrange a loaner car but I declined.

On 13th july 2011
I went to Oberai motors around 11.30 & saw people surrounding the alignment machine some great heads were trying to sort out the alignment issue with the machine, after 2 hour of working they gave up & concluded that the machine is not producing the repeatable results hence is useless until repaired or calibrated.

Its ATS ELGI machine with Bluetooth The machine changes the reading in degrees every time we take the car up the platform without doing anything.

Since the team had come all the way from pune a decision was taken that we will take the car to another tata workshop. That's when I was called by Mr Rajgopala (GM oberoi motors) & he introduced me to 2 new persons.

Mr. Kiran from pune plant (suspension specialist)
Mr. Varun Satija Technical support manager from local CSM team,
Mr. Mayur Vyas from Pune who already was attending this problem.

Varun Satija briefed me about the action plan for the day that we will be going to Sterling automobile in noida where the alignment machine is working correctly.

I was meeting this team for the 1st time & was hoping to get the answers to my 4 question before we proceed hence I categorically asked Varun Satija to answer my 4 question if not all 4 then at least 1 of them,
can manza go straight or not if you take hands off the steering wheel?

Well surprisingly Varun agreed that YES the manza should move straight to 80-100mts when driving @ 60kmph on a fairly flat roads (mind you no road is flat they will have min 2°camber for the water to flow off)

This is a fundamental shift on the stance taken by tata officials, Mr. Mayur had categorically denied saying that his observation in testing in the plant is that manza wont go straight when hands off the steering, in our past few interactions we both had agreed to disagree on this topic till we conclude. As per my driving experience last 22 years when there were no laser alignment machines the cars were still aligned & the mechanics use to test the alignment by taking hands off the steering that's how I have also got into this practice, how else one would cross check if the alignment is correct or not?

Mr Varun wanted to once again try the normal SOPs to which I declined since all SOP had failed & I didn't see any reason to try them again, I asked him if every time you guys form a new team are you going to go over & over doing the same SOP exercise?

He insisted to let it be tried once but I wanted a methodical day plan that if you fail in the another workshop what is the next step you are going to do, it was a hypothetical question but YES I needed a plan in case of that failure, while this discussion was on many times the plant people discussed few option but Varun would intervene & stop that discussion which made me feel there is a difference in approach between him & other 2 guys from the plant.

Varun sincerely wanted to help me whereas I categorically denied that I don't need anymore help, this help has been going on since day 1 but 4 tata workshops have failed fully to solve the problem.
More than help I needed solution to the problem.

I can surely vouch for the excellent customer support system tata motors have put in place but they had failed in solving the basic problem.

We all decided that we take a test drive in my car in its 90% solved condition, I drove them 70 kms drive to make sure that everybody see how the car goes straight with hands off, but a big secondary issue I have been having is that the steering starts vibrating on high speed above 80kmph. On mid way while talking Mr. Varun told me that the team will want to get the car to factory default settings as they suspect that the so called 90% solution may be taking the car straight but that might be happening at the cost of tyre abnormal treading. Their plan was to observe the car behavior at default factory settings I agreed that yes there might be long term repercussion which are not yet visible & I am concerned for that.

He told me one important thing that the cars are designed for 0° road camber where as the roads have a 2-5° road camber hence the car cannot move straight all along but should move 100mts with hands off before moving to left due to road camber. Now this is a revelation to me that I wanted to confirm & conclude if indeed manza is designed for zero camber how can it move straight on a cambered road? I agree but I cant agree that the tata motors have not considered the road condition knowing well how Indian roads are.

I wanted to conclude that manza wont go straight based on the above observation that's when Mr. Mayur said that the car is tested on zero degree camber on rollers then brought to the road but the suspension design takes care of this variance, so there was again difference of opinion between the 2 tata officials & we could not conclude.

We reached back at workshop where Mr. Kiran checked the tyre wear & confirmed that the inner side of tyre is wearing due to negative camber. They wanted to check the alignment machine for the repeatability test & we got some good results with 10% error only so then we moved to Oberoi motors to test drive another manza which has factory defaults This was a suggestion by Mr. Varun as he wanted to test another manza with open mind,asking us to forget all those 7 manza which I drove 2 along with Tata official in our last exercise.

Believe me that this new manza moved perfectly straight without any problems with no vibration up till 120kmph. So here is a new discovery that we found at least 1 manza (manufactured in May 2011) that moves straight with hands off the steering with 4 people sitting, now I asked again all of them what do we conclude can manza move straight or not?

Well opinions for the 1st time changed & we all agreed to agree that YES manza can move straight too but mine is not moving straight so we need to set the factory defaults to find the real issue. [COLOR=red](In morning before I reached this car was being tested for alignment so I am not sure if the any negative camber was set to make it move straight as no reports were shared with me) [/COLOR]

Since this new manza moves straight A big uphill task now remains which is seeking an answer which tata team has to find the probable cause in my car (they still say say I am the 1st one who has reported this problem)
1.what is the faulty part if any which caused this left pulling?
2.What setting affected the alignment which made the car pull left?
3.Why is that the plant inspection team could not catch this problem at the plant itself?
4.Why have the dealers not reported this earlier to tata motors & instead provided band aid solutions to unsuspecting manza users which will ruin their tyre in short duration & will create secondary problem of steering vibration

It was almost evening so we discussed the detailed plan for next day, I categorically wanted a methodical outline of the plan as my concern was that once we change the setting to default & if not able to pin point the problem then what will happen? Right now with 90% correction I know the negative consequence on tyre & steering but what if the problem gets worse?

Mr. Kiran outlined 2 step method & I agreed to his methodical approach to get to the root of problem.
step1 was to change new manza tyre which we drove & test my car with it at factory default setting.
step 2 was if we fail then look into faulty parts if any & further the geometrical issues.

The alignment machine since morning which was being repaired could not be done by late evening so it was decided that next day we have to take the car at sterling automobile .

The alignment machine was giving error in degrees where as the limit is +/- 10'min
1° is assumed to be 60 mins so going by that the machine was making gross errors since manza has tolerance of +/- 30'min & more over the factory presets are done in min where as alignment machine was set wrongly to take measurement in degrees so we were no where accurately doing the alignment all these past days.

Tata officials insisted to offer a loaner car so I don't miss my work but I again denied categorically stating the fact that its now my priority to get the manza sorted out hence I am ready to sweat along with them in the workshop.

Mr. Mayur requested me that not to post anything on the forums about this investigation till the work is being done, to that I agreed as didn't want to hamper their effort but told him categorically that not a single word which has been posted is meant for maligning manza or tata motors, I was left with no option but seek help from where ever I can.

Went back home & called Mr. Achin Juneja & requested him if its possible for him to oversee the line of investigation he already had 2 meeting planned so he said he will try to come by afternoon, the reason to call him was that I felt that its now becoming unbearable for me to understand the methods of investigation so if he can come & offer his insight & have discussion with tata team that might help to solve the problem.

July 14th

WE reached at sterling automobile Noida where strangely the job card was not opened the security guard insisted to follow the procedure but Varun Satija made some arrangements to silence him he then reveled a shocking thing to me when the car was taken on the alignment machine.

Varun Satija categorically denied me the entry to workshop area & asked me to sit in the customer lounge, he was perfectly right in his request & I have never insisted to be along with the car in last 10 yrs of tata car ownership. My previous car used to be collected from home & either would be brought back to home or I would go & collect it from the workshop. His reasoning was that I am passing on the information to other manza sufferers who are then emailing & calling Tata csm for the same issue.

Now the reality is that I have been active prior to buying manza on their facebook page
& have met many manza users on facebook having same problem, but I also met few who said that they don't have this left pulling problem, so I test drove 2 of such cars which didn't report this problem so I was wondering how the problem is corrected they both said that in past (initial days) they reported the left pulling problem & it was soon sorted out by the workshop, I then asked them how was it solved? they were not told what was the problem but problem got solved.

1 of them is having steering vibration & another one had changed his trye around 18000kms so I asked many of this user group to take the car for alignment but don't do any alignment instead get the values of camber & toe..............surprisingly the solution provided by tata workshop is set the negative camber & the car goes straight. So there are many band aid solution for the unsuspecting manza owners provided by tata workshops.

Now this activity is seen by Varun Satita & his higher officials as anti tata/manza which I categorically denied that I have no malicious intention to malign anyone. We were having this endless discussion without any agreement & I said if I don't get into workshop along with my manza then I will not give you the car anymore forget this manza now, either I walk out or you let me be part of the same team. He said that this is not his decision but his higher officials are not happy about this I said I can go & talk to his boss if thats the issue but in no way I am leaving the car with you without me being informed as to what is being done to it.

While we were having this discussion Mr. Achin Juneja called up so I went to meet him outside the workshop & the 2nd shock of the day was about to begin. Mr. Achin Juneja landed up as an atom bomb & Varun Satija had all the reasons to boil & a 2nd round of heated argument started this is when Mr. Tejkaran Singh Lamba (he told me he is the Territory manager) joined the show & he demanded the same thing but the words were chosen differently by him so things cooled down. He gave bit more details as this issue is boiling within their office & putting a lot of pressure hence hampering their normal working.

I briefed Mr. Achin Juneja of last 2 days homework, we mutually agreed that all steps & reports will be shared with me & Achin Juneja (The very reason of asking him to come)

The straight moving manza was tested for alignment values which was told to me that it matches the factory defaults so it means that there indeed is 1 manza at least which moves straight at factory defaults I asked for that report but was not shared with me in spite the promise was told that it will be shared once the problem is resolved. [COLOR=red]Complete backtracking on the promise which Varun Satija made[/COLOR] that he will show the reports on joint trial, we were sitting in the lounge when we came to know that tata officials went out for the trial without informing me, I called up Varun & he said that we just wanted to call you when the car is perfect (again back tracking)

I took the car which was now on default value & the car left pulling started as it was seen earlier this is when the plan to change the suspension bushes & tyres were discussed. The suspension was about to be opened when we were informed that the STRUT changed by Gurgaon Car scanners is wrongly fitted one of Indica Vista not of Manza, well magically it corrected the left pulling problem so I asked are they not the same in dimension? Varun told me that the dimension may be same but the shocker properties may be different so they wanted to change that once again but the strut was not available with sterling automobile workshop so Mr. Tejkaran being the territory manger called up another workshop to get that strut from there, At this point Mr Varun made a remark to which 2 of the tata customers (Me & Mr. Juneja) didn't agree & it again boiled down to a meaningless argument about tata workshop & their behavior with customers.

One thing was very evident to me that Mr. Varun doesn't have good anticipation skills (noticed this & told him twice earlier too) & doesn't think twice before speaking as to what will be the repercussion of the said statement. It was completely meaningless statement which turned into an argument, since its not at all related to finding the left pulling problem I wont even mention details here but that tells me a lot about the person & his people handling skills that too when he is a technical support head of North region at tata motors.

We had to wait 2.5 hrs & by late evening it was changed the 2 tata engineers were working methodically hence wanted to rule out any variables which might hamper to let them reach a conclusion.

Now it was time to take the car from workshop but Varun Satija declined to give me an official bill with history of the car maintained along with the job mentioned as to what all has been done & what all parts have been changed. Since the job card was not officially opened in the morning they opened the job card in the evening & gave me the bill as seen here stating that the car came for monsoon checkup.

The following job was done but not mentioned in the car history (Tata motors is this an official protocol not to mention the history?) Instead the job card mentions that I came for monsoon checkup.

Strut was changed
bushes were not faulty so they were not changed
left n right tyre were swapped (Mr Achin wanted not to swap the tyre) but it was done



Mr. Tejkaran assured me that he will amend the job card next day & get to show the history & will issue me another job card but it was never done later. The car went in & out from the workshop for 4 days without a proper procedure, why its being done only Tata officials know better, if any mishap happens to the car they would simply claim that the car never came to the workshop.

We went for the short test drive the left pulling remained as it is so the indica strut was not faulty in spite being of Vista but we now had to follow the next step tomorrow which was changing the tyre from new manza. (longer test drive will be on my way back home)

I asked for all the alignment reports of my car & other manza car & Mr. Varun again denied that other car report is meaning less so it wont be given [COLOR=red](again back tracking from what we agreed in the morning)[/COLOR]
It was a sad day going by the events & failure with lots n lots of heated & polarized argument, I could feel that they all were under tremendous pressure to solve but my own experience says people loose sense exactly when they need it most, sad but true.

We all were dead tried & our faces were showing clear sign of failure but I thanked all & on a positive note Mr Kiran said tomorrow will be another day & we shall overcome the problem.

Unquote

[AutoIndian]

Continuation from Post #66, Further updates from Ranjan: Quote

15th July 2011
While I was driving to workshop I was observing the behavior at high speed there was intense vibration even at 80kmph & left pull remained but reduced a bit from the original problem. So I shared this 70kms driving feedback with 2 tata engineers & told that I will not be able to stay longer today since my wife & kid both had high fever in the morning but I could not take them to the doctor so I gave them the medicine for the day. Evening I had to take them for sure to the doctor. Loaner car was offered to me again but I declined.

So we swapped the tyre back to its original sides & some fine adjustments were done in alignment [COLOR=red](again reports not shared with me)[/COLOR] then took a short test drive by one of the service adviser (Mr. Kuldeep) on a internal road the car left puling was reported to be almost reduced. We came back & then wanted to go on expressway test drive Varun Joined us for this long test drive we drove & got almost 90% straight moving car & was happy to stick with it but when we got down at the workshop Varun wanted to talk separately with 2 tata engineers & after some discussion among themselves it was reported to me that this present solution has a problem in long run hence we cannot yet conclude whats the fault & they suspect the tyre to be faulty.

I asked why are they suspecting now again to the tyre (twice earlier the tyre along with rims have been changed) they said these tyres are only working in 1 particular set combination only, if we rotate the tyre the original left pulling problem will start again, which I agreed but I said for the time being I can live with it so you guys can have some breather time to find the root cause of the problem. This would have given them 2-3 months time before I need tyre rotation . Believe me they all were trying hard to find the problem & I wanted to give them a break. We all are humans & we cant remain in that struggling mode when we are not able to find 100% solution better to settle at whatever we have for the time being.

Mr. Tejkaran Lamba discussed with 2 tata engineers that since all these efforts are not finding the fault what is now that they are suspecting, he was briefed that tyre is the suspect so tomorrow we will swap the 4 tyre from a new manza for testing & set the original values to one of the old report which gave us 95% straight moving car but had steering vibration at high speed.

He wanted a solution that can be implemented to all the manza having this problem & rotating the tyre should not bring the problem back. He specifically wanted this to be done by workshop people not by plant people coming every time as the cost is huge & stakes are too high. We all agreed to his suggestion but there was no solution in sight, all we could was correct 95% & do some research as to what is this mysterious problem which even after 4 day is not being caught. It was decided that bridgestone people should be called & in front of them the car will be driven then the tyre be changed as tyre are not manufactured by tata motors.

After last day failure this was a kind of a happy day that we had 95% solution at least to fall back as temporary solution. I came back home took my wife & kid to the doctor then later shared the update with Mr. Juneja he gave few suggestions after having my early dinner left for a client meeting at 10.30PM (no time in the day for that) I decided to go for a long drive on the expressway since at night all roads are empty.

From 12am -1.30 am I drove 150 kms at night on the expressway at the speed of 120-140kmph & observed the following.

1. Steering wobble gone (alignment values were bit fine tuned but [COLOR=red]no reports were shared with me[/COLOR])
2. Steering vibration gone ,stable at 140kmph (drove 1st time at that speed since car was too unstable earlier)
3. Tyres were making huge roaring sound now which was not happening earlier at all.
4. little bit of left pulling remained but this will come back if I rotate tyre.


16th July 2011
Reached the workshop at 11.30 & gave my detailed feedback to Mr. Kiran. The new manza which moved perfectly straight its tyre along with rim were swapped so now we had new tyre in my manza (3rd time changed) we went for a test drive & were quite hopeful that now manza will move straight but it didn't move straight still continued its left pulling pulling got worse to 75% (correction of left pulling) so I now concluded that lets get back to that 95% situation with new tyre.

New tyre improved the steering control & all that roaring noise was completely gone so I didn't want to tinker further since yesterday itself to me it was clear that as of now we have to settle at 95% & compromise either with steering vibration at high speed or left pulling increased both were not being controlled together, but as engineers think they wanted 1 more try at alignment setting I said categorical NO to Mr. Mayur & requested him that just set the alignment values which corrected the 95% problem I will live with the steering vibration for a while & wont drive higher than 100kmph till the problem is sorted out 100%.

[COLOR=red]These same tyre were running the newer manza perfectly straight whereas swapping to my car they were having the left pull problem so I don't think that tyre were the probable cause at all but tata engineers still wanted some alignment to be fine tuned & try again I requested them not to do that as each setting requires a long test drive & further fine tuning consumes 2hrs, last 4 days we have been doing that plenty of times & found that alignment is not a definite value that you set a particular default setting & it will work on all cars.....no it wont, each car will require fine tuning since there will be so many variables.[/COLOR]

At this point I discussed that now it seems that there is some geometrical issue with the car which I have been pointing out since day 2 when all alignment failed at Urmil motors (ghaziabad) & in the workshop we cant diagnose that at all since there is no such machine or method, the body sits on suspension & if its out by 2-5mm that can only be diagnosed in the plant (Hopefully) only.

We reached workshop at sterling automobiles & discussed again all the 3+ days homework which was done to eliminate the probable causes 1 by 1 , Mr. Mayur still wanted another 1 try at fine tuning the alignment values since the tyre are brand new he was hopeful that we can get 100% but I categorically denied not to tinker further with the values instead just get back to the values close to 95% version (I didn't want to be greedy with the solution of 100%)

Mr. Varun Satija offered me again a loaner car & asked to leave alone my car for 2-3 days time since we are so close to 95% but I declined since I was almost convinced that 100% cannot be achieved on my manza probably due to geometrical issues which cant be checked in the workshop (1 bird in hand is better than 2 birds in bushes)

I requested tata officials not to pursue me for 100% solution & finally Mr. Mayur gave clear instruction to the mechanic to set specified values of toe in & camber. We all went out for lunch & came back after approx 1 hour surprisingly the car alignment was just about to begin that's what the mechanic told me, bit surprised at the amount taken I wondered why?

Then finally the alignment values were set & car was ready for test drive, surprisingly the mechanic himself wanted to test drive & Mr. Mayur allowed him to do so, nothing unusual since all alignment mechanics go for road test but in my case I had specified that the road test will be done in my presence ONLY, this was agreed upon the 2nd day when we had lots of arguments. I asked Mr. Mayur at least should accompany him if not me, but he said that let him go alone for a short test drive, since he insisted I let him go for short drive without me.

He went away & didn't return for almost 30 mins that's when I got curious as to where has he disappeared he was told for a short test drive on 1 of the identified roads near workshop, asked tata officials to call him on his mobile & was told that his mobile is not answering I asked for his number myself but the number was not given to me, I felt furious by now its was almost 45 mins & no sign of him anywhere, that's when I went to the out gate & asked for the car records, the register showed the car moving out twice which means that he had taken the car on a 56 kms test drive the 1st time when we went out for lunch. The problem was not with 56kms test drive(we have been having 75kms test drive ) but why did he lie to me when I asked him after returning from lunch.

1. He told me that he has just started the alignment
2. why did he took the car on 56 kms test drive first time then another 40kms drive 2nd time when he categorically been told to set a particular alignment values?
3. in last 4 days he is very much aware that we have been doing the test rides quite methodically keeping the records & ruling out possible causes.

Now after 45 mins he returns & I stopped him on the gate it self & asked him why did he go for a such a long drive he had no answer but seeing my red face told me that he was making sure the car moves perfect after alignment, seeing a spanner in his fellow mechanic's hand I asked him what has he done & he told me that he has swapped the wheels.
Spare wheel was attached on LH side,
left wheel was changed to right hand side,
RH wheel in the spare

& before that he had done some adjustments which was not told to him, or it was told to him by one of the tata guys without my knowledge, I had categorically told every body that lets not tinker with setting further more to achieve 100% the mechanic was doing hit & trial, In his own words & submission he admitted he did that bcoz he was told to do so by one of the tata officials, when I asked WHO? he declined to name or identify.

Mr. Mayur Vyas has clearly told him to set a particular alignment values but seems the Local CSM guys were desperate to find 100% solution as they have been under pressure, without realizing that pressure alone cannot solve the problem, it can be counter productive. Tata Pune engineers have been methodical to rule out probable causes but could not find the source of the left pulling problem. It seems that local CSM team either didn't agree with their method hence wanted to adopt their own method & any one of them had instructed to solve the issue at any cost anyhow, that's why today we went out on lunch whereas all days we were having lunch in the workshop itself so the car can be left free.

There seems to be difference between tata csm local & pune team.
Local team is quite concerned of the over head cost to sort out the 1 manza problem & wondering how many days do we need for sorting out other manza which are having the same issue.


Pune team was methodical hence eliminated probable causes to root out the problem but unfortunately could only achieve 95% success with suspecting 1 or all 4 tyre to be the cause but they are not tyre specialist hence wanted to have bridgestone guys to give their opinion. Bridgestone people could not come so they changed the 4 trye with rims from another manza.

This was an unfortunate incident which lost our 4 days hard work & settings, I know we still can get back but then each change required 2 hrs & today was the last day as I have to get back to work which I have been not attending last 62 days now due to this manza problem. With the angry mood we went for a test drive & no one spoke for almost 30 mins while returning from the expressway Mr. Tejkaran Lamba asked me how good is the balance now.

steering vibration again increased at low speeds
left pulling decreased but still remains

So in nutshell instead of getting back to our old tested 95% correction values we had landed up with worse condition bcoz of someones stupidity to solve the problem. Swapping the tyre is not a solution bcoz the moment the trye will be rotated the left pulling will come this was already concluded by Tata engineers in yesterdays test.

While returning from this test drive it was evident that there is a difference of approach in 2 teams & someone from local team had given instruction to do that swapping of tyre though no one is admitting it but the mechanic told me taht he was instructed to do so, Pune team did not do that since I was standing along with Mr. Mayur when he passed on the instruction, Mr. Mayur was visibly quite upset with all this fiasco.

Local CSM team was more focused on why this problem is not being sorted out in last 4 days?
Pune team was more focused to find the root cause & methodically eliminated the causes.

Mr. Tejkaran told me that plant people have nil customer interaction & they don't know how to deal with customers, I agree but Pune plant team was categorical from the day 1 that they will not talk to me directly, & often tell me that so & so thing will be told to you by the CSM people so there was no question of overstepping the protocol but it was now evident that my presence in the workshop was a real problem for the local CSM for some strange reason they are feeling some pressure whereas I have never ever posed any problem in what they want to do except that I wanted to be kept informed.
I had to be present there as my trust from the Tata workshop is at all time low, I don't want anymore hit & trial method on my car to be done & refused any further adjustment in the settings.

Mr. Tejkaran wanted the car for 2-3days without me being present in the workshop giving me reasons that the tata engineer needs peace of mind, surprised with his statement I asked how come my presence becoming a problem for them? Not even once the 2 engineers complained or felt odd in my presence with me, so basically its the same thing that local CSM does not want me to be in the workshop. Not an agreeable condition for me specially now since my faith in Tata workshop is all time low.

In past 9yrs of ownership of Indica I have never ever been to workshop floors unless asked for, car was picked up from house & after service I would go to get the car, only when some faulty part had to be changed I would get a call from workshop if I want to inspect, the older Indica V2 never gave me so many problems hence never ever I spent so many days sweating in the workshop.

I understand the pressure they are having to resolve the problem but this is no way to handle special cases which has gone unresolved for last 62 days. I requested to Mr. Tejkaran that you can have my car only if you get me 1 manza which drives straight at factory default settings & I will check the alignment values myself now.....why? bcoz I have a doubt that new manza whose tyre were swapped to my manza may have altered alignment values (they never shared any report with me) if not why the same tyre were not making my car run straight at factory settings?

The issue remains pending & I left for the day haven't heard from them since then may be they are finding that 1 manza which can move straight at factory default settings. Will soon be going to the workshop for getting the 2nd service done, believe me out of the 5000+kms its been 3800kms is test driving only, just in these last 4 days of testing car has test driven 1000kms all at my expanses, I have been co operative as much as I can yet I am told that my presence is creating the problem for them.

While all this was happening Mr. Achin Juneja conducted few test on tyre & have found one probable cause but I need to see if that's applicable in my case or not.

Unquote

[AutoIndian]

In continuation of post #67, Quote:

Mr. Achin juneja did an experiment for my left pulling problem

A very common sight in rural areas is small boys playing with a small metal ring or tyre, rolling it in front of them with a stick or a length of stiff wire. The ring or tyre sometimes goes off on it's own, rolls for a distance & then tilts to the left or right, before finally falling flat on the ground. Happened to see this today, & got an idea. Picked up my mechanic, got tyre pressure in all 5 tyres set to 30 psi & drove to a stretch of flat open road at one end of my colony. Removed the front LH wheel from the car. Asked the mechanic to stand 50m away, & rolled the wheel towards him. It rolled perfectly straight, slowed to almost a stop, then toppled over. Turned the wheel 180 degrees, then rolled it again. Still rolled straight. Did the same with the spare wheel. This time, the wheel did not roll straight, but veered to the right before toppling over at the right side of the road. Repeated the exercise with spare wheel again, same result. Turned the wheel 180 degrees, rolled again. This time wheel veered to the left. Repeated the exercise with the front RH wheel - it rolled straight. My car does not have any pulling problems. Put the spare (the one that rolled to the right) on the front RH. On the way home, noticed a slight tendency to pull right.
Conclusions ?

Sometimes it helps to do wacky things. Some passers by stopped to ask what we were doing. I said we are re-living our school days!

Achin Juneja


In the first experiment, I had replaced the RH front wheel of my Indica with the spare wheel, which resulted in the car pulling to the right. The spare wheel had also veered to the right when rolled on it's own.

In my mind, there could be only one reason for this behaviour. To verify, yesterday, I went to the tyre shop, took out the spare wheel (the one showing tendency to go right), got the tyre removed, turned it 180 degrees (the side facing outwards now was on the inside) & fitted it back on the rim. Fitted the wheel at the front RH & took a test drive. No more right pulling, car was driving normally!

The spare tyre had what is called "lateral runout". This means that the tyre mass is not symmetrical about the centre of the tread, but is slightly biased to one side (looking at the tread from the top with tyre standing vertical). The tyre will tend to pull towards the side with the higher mass. That is what the rolling test showed. By reversing the tyre on the rim, the side with the higher mass was then on the inside, negating the (now)left pull with the help of the +ve camber.

Of course, this has nothing to do with the alignment of the red/yellow dots on the tyre, which affect the wheel balance & subsequently the vibrations of the steering wheel at higher speeds. Tyres are not perfectly circular about the centre. There is a maximum radius(Rmax) & a minimum radius(Rmin). The difference between Rmax & Rmin is called the Radial Runout. It could be a maximum of 1mm. The radius Rmax is marked with a Red dot. The mass of the tyre is not equally distributed around the tyre. There is a small area of the tread which is lighter than the rest of the tread (light point). This is marked on the sidewall with a Yellow dot. To minimise vibrations & reduce the weights required during wheel balancing, the Red dot on the tyre must be aligned with the lightest point on the rim, usually marked with a notch or a blue dot. If only the Yellow dot is present on the tyre, this dot must be aligned with heaviest point on the rim, which is the location of the valve stem. If both Red & Yellow dots are present, Red dot gets priority. If there is no notch or blue dot on the rim, then the Yellow dot should be aligned with the valve stem.

There are a lot of new tyres from different brands which have no color dots at all. This does not mean that the tyre is perfect. In all likelyhood, the tyres are 2nd grade, not meeting the minimum quality levels. Some companies place a red colored line running alongg the tread. This indicates the lateral runout. If the line is in the centre of the tread, the runout is '0'. An off-centre line indicates the left or right runout. The tyre will have a tendence to favour that side.

I hope TML engineers are reading this, as it will help them solve customer's problems in a better way.

Achin Juneja

Unquote

[saintsinner]

have issues with my indica too and yes it goes to sterling, noida. have spoken to Mr. Lamba too. its a pathetic workshop and has no respect or regards for its customers. i was asked to leave my car for an unspecified numbers of days, when i asked them that what will i do without a car? they said - "woh aapki problem hai, aisi baat hai to aur kahi sahi karwa lo"

that is TATA for you.

[AutoIndian]

Hi Saintsinner, if that is the attitude of Sterling, Noida, just abandon it, but not before escalating the issue to Tata Motors. Why don't you give a shot to Gurgaon Car scanners (if that is convenient)? Have you recently got your wheel alignment checked from an independant tyre shop, if not then please get that done first. If that doesn't help, then go to Gurgaon Car scanners.

[saintsinner]

AutoIndian - What is the name of the owner and is he on FB?

[AutoIndian]

Originally Posted by saintsinner

AutoIndian - What is the name of the owner and is he on FB?

The owner is on a number of threads except TBHP (as his membership could not be approved even after repeated attemps). Poor guy has now given up I guess. His name is Ranjan Sharma. He should be on facebook, not sure though.

[saintsinner]

Thanks, could you ask him to join the following group?

Log In | Facebook

[rajivanoj]

After following this thread and other threads of same problem, i had rectified left pulling problem. I had cleaned Brake calipers with WD-40 and lubricated with brake grease (both wheels), as an try. but i also have checked the lower arm by removing with mechanic to find any bend or crack. but it was fine, even ball joint was fine. but found that balance rod bush gone bad and that bolt also rusted, so bought new set for both sides, and now almost 90% fine. But have to align wheels once again to set it right as precautionary measure. But i can feel good difference now.

[motomaverick]

Just read the thread and its sad to see such an ordeal on a new car. So AutoIndian what is the current status with your friends car? Has the problem been solved? or atleast upto 95%?