[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by anky

If Tata made a better Safari or Mahindra made a better Xylo (I think it has ) not many people would que in to buy the very much outdated Innova .

Isn't that a big IF?

The only international car they sell here is Corolla . Not counting any ckd or cbu cars that are imported , also I think it does not deserve the 12 lakh price tag . I have extensively driven the Innova it has a taxi image and not a comfortable driving position .

There whole product portfolio is being lapped up by the Indian consumer. Why doesn't the car deserve the 12L tag? It still has a 4-6 week waiting mate. The pricing is good and having a monopoly in terms of comfort and reliability helps. Ofcourse the day they reduce the prices it will just add on to the Volumes.
Plus I have never understood the term Taxi Image. Are there different car companies which cater only to the Taxi segment? Taxi owners buy what they feel is a good mix of comfort, reliability and cheap to maintain. And the fact that they love Toyota is actually a big compliment. The number of Innovas on the road being driven by private individuals is also extremely high.
Also I am actually shocked at reading that you didn't find the driving position comfortable. I drive one everyday for the last 80k kms and I don't think there is a more comfortable car around.

Originally Posted by man_and_machine

I am hinting at would it not make sense for toyota to look at a say 1.5 L with almost the same output and better FE?

They should do something about it. But may be they don't want to disturb anything in the winning formula right now. Better FE will surely be appreciated but I have also seen many people weighing a car in terms of its engine capacity rather then its state of tuning. So a 2.5L Engine with lower specs may attract more customers rather then a 1.5L engine with higher specs. An example being that most people buying a car in the C+ segment rule out Altis diesel only on basis of the 1.4L engine.

[Aroy]

Engines are designed for a specific duty. If the aim is highway speeds and good FE, low capacity high speed engines are the solution. But high speed engines come with their own problems
. Hgher wear and tear, translating to shorter intervals between overhauls
. Higher pressure in injectors, again more frequent replacements
. More electronics, hence more chances of break down.
But if you are going to use the vehicle on highways, have repair facilities available and change the vehicle before it clocks 1L km, these shortcomings are of little consequence, compared to higher speed and better FE.

Higher capacity low speed diesels have excellent low speed torque and come on their own when
. Highway speeds are not important, as in the case of hills and rough terrain
. Reliability is is important as mechanics and workshops may be far away.
. Low speed torque is required to traverse mud and sludge in hostile terrain. This is one of the reasons that older 30-40HP jeep diesels can traverse extreme off road conditions, where modern 100+HP diesels get bogged down.
. Low speed torque ensures that the vehicle can easily pull the vehicle without "half clutch", preserving it.

So long life especially for long term duty in urban India, a detuned, long life engine, such as in Innovate is a boon for operators, rather than a pain. Of course for enthusiasts this is not the engine of choice

[ACM]

I believe so, yes the power and torque figures do not do justice to the 2.5L capacity.

Infact to some extent the same is in my books also true for the fortuner.

A 2.5L TDI Common Rail Engine should give a min of 150 Bhp while a 3L one should be beyond 190 Bhp.

The Tata, Mahindar and even force motors 2.2 Diesel engines are a case to point. As also the Santa Fe, Captiva, Cruz, Laura, Superb, Passat, Jetta - 2.0 TDI etc.

By the same measure the Endy too has somewhat dated power outputs for both their 2.5 and 3L ltrs engines.

BS4 does not seem to have helped the Innova much either.

[Durango Dude]

If you call this outdated what would you say of the 6.75 liter that under the bonnet of the Bentley that was a pushrod and had endeared itself to its clients for the waftability qoutient, so much some clients did not like the 4.4 V8 from BMW that replaced it though it was fuel efficient than the push rod engine that harked back to the '50's.

[SS-Traveller]

I hope this thread throws up the answer(s) that we are looking for.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

There whole product portfolio is being lapped up by the Indian consumer. Why doesn't the car deserve the 12L tag?

Thats just because its a To-Yo-Ta... We have seen big fans of toyotas not even taking a test drive & simply booking the innova. They dont even give a chance to scorpio or safari. They blindly trust toyota.

Classis example is hundreds of people who booked Etios & are later found cribbing about noise levels, cost cutting & poor performance.

Also I am actually shocked at reading that you didn't find the driving position comfortable. I drive one everyday for the last 80k kms and I don't think there is a more comfortable car around.

I have an Innova V & even I dont find the driving position comfortable. My arms & lower back hurts after a long stint. So, I never drive that car.

Better FE will surely be appreciated but I have also seen many people weighing a car in terms of its engine capacity rather then its state of tuning. So a 2.5L Engine with lower specs may attract more customers rather then a 1.5L engine with higher specs.

Irony is a scorpio 2.2 with better performance, more power & more weight still manages to give better FE figures than my Innova.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Thats just because its a To-Yo-Ta... We have seen big fans of toyotas not even taking a test drive & simply booking the innova. They dont even give a chance to scorpio or safari. They blindly trust toyota.

And that faith came how? Why after 15 years of having Safari on our roads and the scorpio and having them priced much cheaper also fails to show it on the sales chart? Toyota is reliable and the product is fantastic. No 2 ways about it and hence I pointed out that why shouldn't Toyota price it at 12L? Ofcourse if tomorrow a good alternative comes, they will cut there prices too just like Honda. But thats market dynamics and till then innovas will just keep flying off the shelf with that hefty price tag.

Classis example is hundreds of people who booked Etios & are later found cribbing about noise levels, cost cutting & poor performance.

Please ask yourself honestly if you really feel that the criticism is justified? No rubber beading, one reverse light being faulty from the factory and stuff like this really makes me want to pull off my hair. No one and I mean no one should book a car without even seeing it. Its common sense not to expect Altis grade material in a car priced at 1/3 of its price. The only problem I feel that people have is the higher engine noise. Yes that is a genuine problem. All other cribbing about cost cutting is stupid as most of those people don't even know what there car comes with and what not. I posted this before also on the Etios problem thread. The guy who started that original site and has recently become a member here hasn't replied back with his problems even after repeated requests. The majority of the problems reported on his own site about the Etios are actually laughable. Please find some time and go have a read. You will actually enjoy it.

I have an Innova V & even I dont find the driving position comfortable. My arms & lower back hurts after a long stint. So, I never drive that car.

Hmmm I m reading about this seriously for the first time. I find them quite comfortable.

Irony is a scorpio 2.2 with better performance, more power & more weight still manages to give better FE figures than my Innova.

Even I feel the Innova should return better FE figures. I get around 10.5-11.5 in Delhi's traffic with 100% AC on. And ideally I would have loved it to be around 12-13.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Toyota is reliable and the product is fantastic. No 2 ways about it and hence I pointed out that why shouldn't Toyota price it at 12L?

Toyota is reliable - yes
Product is fantastic - not quite, I have seen better products than innova, altis, etios & fortuner.

Please ask yourself honestly if you really feel that the criticism is justified? No rubber beading, one reverse light being faulty from the factory and stuff like this really makes me want to pull off my hair. No one and I mean no one should book a car without even seeing it. Its common sense not to expect Altis grade material in a car priced at 1/3 of its price. The only problem I feel that people have is the higher engine noise. Yes that is a genuine problem. All other cribbing about cost cutting is stupid as most of those people don't even know what there car comes with and what not. I posted this before also on the Etios problem thread. The guy who started that original site and has recently become a member here hasn't replied back with his problems even after repeated requests. The majority of the problems reported on his own site about the Etios are actually laughable. Please find some time and go have a read. You will actually enjoy it.

I understand. And i also know its not justified, since he booked the car without seeing it.

One reverse light & no rubber beading is not even an issue but poor engine performance, noisy engine, rough gearbox etc are big issues especially since cars like manza & dzire are better at lower prices.

Toyota cant just fleece indians in the name of "brand image".

To be honest, I am quite disappointed with my Innova. IMO, driving pleasure is NIL, NVH & refinement is below par, FE is average & the body is ultra light/wafer thin & paint quality is the worst - not good for people like me living in congested metros & who cant stand scratches or dents on their cars. True, the car is reilable but we have spent thousands of rupees on body work. A.S.S. & parts is very very expensive too.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Toyota is reliable - yes
Product is fantastic - not quite, I have seen better products than innova, altis, etios & fortuner.

Better products per se or better products suiting your needs?

[nitinbose]

Toyota cars in India are tuned to function to as little as 50% of their capability, according to my research and understanding. The main reason is for engine longevity and to provide the maximum fuel efficiency.

I had requested Nandi Toyota to adjust the tuning for better performance for my Fortuner and they did some "magic" and now the car really blazes off! Ofcourse, this is at the cost of fuel efficiency drop from 10km/liter to about 8.Xkm/liter in the city.

Regarding features, indeed yes, Toyota could make it appear more intelligent, for example instead of the lights as the indicators, there could be display which says, "seat-belt warning" or "Oil level and temperature OK" etc. These are small modifications without much cost implications.

They could atleast provide a port and a client software using which we may interface our laptops or iphone/ipad/android and get such readings! This would add value, atleast for me!

Though the latest corolla does come with the touch screen AV, its still some shady or outdated make!

So the bottom line?? They should try and understand the Indian automobile dynamics better and shape their products continuously accordingly.

[k_nitin_r]

Originally Posted by man_and_machine

I am hinting at would it not make sense for toyota to look at a say 1.5 L with almost the same output and better FE?

The Fiat 1.3L MJD has been used by Maruti and Tata and has been tuned and turbocharged to extract the most from it. Compared to the 1.5L Peugeot TUD5 that Maruti, Tata, and Hyundai used previously, it does deliver more power for 0.2L less capacity.

I believe the Suzuki Cervo, which comes with a 600cc engine and is speculated to enter India as a Maruti 800 replacement, would probably attempt to match or exceed the power of the old 800cc engine that the Maruti 800 bore.

Having said that it is possible for a smaller engine to deliver more power, I would also mention that larger engines are a key selling point and is also badged onto many vehicles for the owner's pride (Eg. Corolla 1.8 instead of Corolla 1.3).

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Better products per se or better products suiting your needs?

Of course. Thats how every individual rates a product, isnt it? There is no "PERFECT" vehicle.

[noopster]

Interesting thread! I often wonder myself, when we equate large (higher cc) engines with more power, why certain vehicles deliver power disproportionate to their size?

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

I hope this thread throws up the answer(s) that we are looking for.

Thanks- will look that up!

[Nitrous Power]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Irony is a scorpio 2.2 with better performance, more power & more weight still manages to give better FE figures than my Innova.

Each engine is designed for specific usage for specific cars. Scorpio is SUV and 2.2 is developed keeping that in mind. Why Xylo is not using the same engine? Instead using 2.5 liter engine with less power than 2.2, reason being Xylo is MUV and requires different engine tuning. Same way, Innova is MUV and does not require outright power only. Please compare apple to apple.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

Toyota is reliable - yes
Product is fantastic - not quite, I have seen better products than innova, altis, etios & fortuner.

But the general population has a different view point. Innova, Altis and Fortuner are miles ahead in sales chart than competition. That proves something.

[blackfire_9]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Plus I have never understood the term Taxi Image. Are there different car companies which cater only to the Taxi segment? Taxi owners buy what they feel is a good mix of comfort, reliability and cheap to maintain. And the fact that they love Toyota is actually a big compliment. The number of Innovas on the road being driven by private individuals is also extremely high.

I agree to this cent percent. In fact, this is something that is often said about Tata cars, especially the Indica. But this car is one of the toughest hatches I have ever seen, which gets the job done without much fuss & I say this from the experience of many knowns who have dozens of Indicas in the taxi business.

In fact, if taxi image is a botheration then one shouldn't consider Mercedes & Bimmers as well because they are extensively used as taxis in Germany.

They should do something about it. But may be they don't want to disturb anything in the winning formula right now. Better FE will surely be appreciated but I have also seen many people weighing a car in terms of its engine capacity rather then its state of tuning. So a 2.5L Engine with lower specs may attract more customers rather then a 1.5L engine with higher specs. An example being that most people buying a car in the C+ segment rule out Altis diesel only on basis of the 1.4L engine.

Precisely. Plus, many may differ but I have felt that a higher displacement with slightly lower output is the ideal choice for long haulers. Smaller capacity engines with similar power outputs age prematurely & have a tough time in the old age.