[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by Aroy

1. Commercial users are excellent judges of VFM. If they vote with their money, then you can be assured of
. Long life
. trouble free ownership
. low cost of repairs
. good reliability

+10. But the point is, expectations of the CEO of a company & that of a taxi driver are totally different.

Since we are talking about Innova here, search around the forum & you will find many examples of scorpios which has crossed 1.5 lakh kms & still running fine. Mind you, we are talking ONLY about engine!

2. In this and other forums, there have been quite a few comments on the low speed performance and apparent torque of the new breed of engines - 2.2L Scorpio and Safari with the older 2.6L CRDI and the 3.0L engines respectively. Most of the users who had used both, were of the opinion that the older higher capacity engines could some how pull the vehicle at low speed through mud easily, while the newer engines required clutch slipping at times. As I have no experience in any of these engines, I am relying on their say so.

Why talk about mud plugging? How many percent of Scorpio owners actually take it for off roading?

Can innova handle off roading? I dont think so. Then why is it's engine tuned to pull through mud rather than cruise comfortably on highways?

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Raj, how do you equate an engine that is less fuel-efficient than another, to be technologically more back-dated? Which are the components (technology) lacking in the D-4D that the mEagle / mHawk engine has?

I just said the engine is outdated in this era. technically, there is no problem in the engine. A 2.5 engine which makes only 102 bhp power in this age where even 2.2 & 2.0 engines make 140 bhp & 180 bhp is outdated for me.

Toyota needs a 3.0 engine in Fortuner to make 170 bhp whereas Hyundai manages to have a 2.2 engine belt out 197 bhp.

I dont believe that the Hyundai's engine is strained or stressed. Less said about the refinement of Fortuner & Innova, the better. They are too damn noisy.

At 120 kmph, the D-4D sounds as if its tearing it's lungs apart.

Also, if your Scorpio engine is turning over at 2500 rpm/100 kmph, and the Innova engine is turning over at 2700 rpm/100 kmph, is the FE a function of technology or just plain physics? Toyota had a reason to put in that gearbox-differential combo, wherein FE suffers but the car gains a few other things as a tradeoff.

What is it gaining?

It neither has the acceleration benefit nor the drivability benefit nor the refinement benefit nor the fuel efficiency benefit. What has it gained?

Why dont you look at it like this -

A scorpio which is not as aerodynamic as the innova, weighs more than the innova & is more powerful than the innova, still manages to be more efficient than the innova.

Wont I feel the D-4D is outdated?

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

I just said the engine is outdated in this era. technically, there is no problem in the engine. A 2.5 engine which makes only 102 bhp power in this age where even 2.2 & 2.0 engines make 140 bhp & 180 bhp is outdated for me.

Raj, just by comparing the power torque figures you cant judge an engine. There are umpteen # of other parameters, going in to the development of an engine. If Toyota has chosen the tune, then its for a purpose.

Size doesn't always matter.

What is it gaining?

Have you seen these Hyundai's and Chevrolet's running 5,00,000 kms and still good to go for another thousands of kilometers?

Wont I feel the D-4D is outdated?

Yes, of course.. you will feel. As long as you look at these things only on paper.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Raj, how do you equate an engine that is less fuel-efficient than another, to be technologically more back-dated?

Hi,
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2522945

Regards
Sutripta

[RadiantKarma]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

A 2.5 engine which makes only 102 bhp power in this age where even 2.2 & 2.0 engines make 140 bhp & 180 bhp is outdated for me.

Don't you get the answer here below?

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

...they have kept the engine almost 40% detuned on power front ( internationally the 2.5 unit produces 143 bhp or so with VGT, look for my other post/s in this thread ) and almost 70% down on torque ( VGT 2.5 internationally produces 34 kgm ).

So it's not about engine capability and hence being outdated, but a matter of state of tune, be it for FE and/or for engine life.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Hi,
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post2522945

Good one! Quoting me to answer me!!!

Originally Posted by ajay0612

GC is a factor gentleman.

Yes, one of the factors.

Originally Posted by ajay0612

My experience of driving Swift in hills is the basis. I don't want any less pulling power.

I wonder what you would have said if the basis was your experience of driving in the hills in a Maruti Omni, with its minuscule 35 bhp engine with 62 N-m of torque. Those who have driven an Omni in the mountains would know what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

...why is it's engine tuned to pull through mud rather than cruise comfortably on highways?

...or pull the equivalent of 10 Sumo wrestlers when the need arises?

Originally Posted by raj_5004

I just said the engine is outdated in this era. technically, there is no problem in the engine. A 2.5 engine which makes only 102 bhp power in this age where even 2.2 & 2.0 engines make 140 bhp & 180 bhp is outdated for me.
Toyota needs a 3.0 engine in Fortuner to make 170 bhp whereas Hyundai manages to have a 2.2 engine belt out 197 bhp.
What is it gaining?

Why dont you look at it like this -
A scorpio which is not as aerodynamic as the innova, weighs more than the innova & is more powerful than the innova, still manages to be more efficient than the innova.

Technologically, we would need to consider the design & number of cams/valves, engine/piston/other components, the materials used and their comparative cost, when comparing 2 engines - in this respect, the Toyota engine would be more comparable to the mEagle than to the Hyundai Santa Fe's engine. Would you have considered buying an Innova if it generated 200 bhp/300 N-m but cost you 20L to buy and 15k to service each time? And how much more fuel efficient is the Hyundai engine (or for that matter the mHawk engine) compared to the Innova's engine? Not more than 10% at best, IMO.

BTW, how many times have you heard of an Innova engine that refused to run due to poor fuel issues? How many Innovas have you seen that belch smoke out of the tailpipe, vis-a-vis the Safari? Up in Ladakh, mHawk engines have reported issues (even multiple times on this forum) with smoking from the tailpipe, refusal to start from cold, poor pulling power etc. How many Innovas have you heard of, that suffered from such problems?

The D-4D may be outdated in your book, Raj, but it does things that many other modern engines (which by your definition would mean engines with higher bhp & torque outputs per cc) fail to do. AND it meets current emission (BS-IV) standards by quite a few miles, which, in my book, is modern enough.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

Raj, just by comparing the power torque figures you cant judge an engine. There are umpteen # of other parameters, going in to the development of an engine. If Toyota has chosen the tune, then its for a purpose.

Size doesn't always matter.
Have you seen these Hyundai's and Chevrolet's running 5,00,000 kms and still good to go for another thousands of kilometers?
Yes, of course.. you will feel. As long as you look at these things only on paper.

well, I dont know if they would last for 5L kms. but I would like to have a car which is fun to drive, even though it lasts only 3 lakh kms.

Originally Posted by RadiantKarma

Don't you get the answer here below?

So it's not about engine capability and hence being outdated, but a matter of state of tune, be it for FE and/or for engine life.

Ok, I agree. But why does Toyota has to detune the engine so much when other manufacturers dont feel the need to?

Just because Toyota detunes the engine, does that make them more reliable or sturdy? I think the other way, there must be something wrong that Toyota HAD TO detune the engine so much!

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

Would you have considered buying an Innova if it generated 200 bhp/300 N-m but cost you 20L to buy and 15k to service each time? And how much more fuel efficient is the Hyundai engine (or for that matter the mHawk engine) compared to the Innova's engine? Not more than 10% at best, IMO.

When I am spending 13 lakhs for the Innova, I would atleast expect a 120-130 bhp engine, if not more.

even that 10% improvement would matter a lot, especially when the more FE engine is more powerful too.

BTW, how many times have you heard of an Innova engine that refused to run due to poor fuel issues?

I have not heard a hyundai engine or mahindra engine stalling due to poor fuel either.

How many Innovas have you seen that belch smoke out of the tailpipe, vis-a-vis the Safari?

Please dont say that.

From day 1, my innova has been belching black smoke like anything. I still remember, when our car was brand new, we reversed the car into our car porch & then started it the next morning only to find our wall to be black in colour, covered with soot.

Read my ownership report, I have reported about this issue to the A.S.S. many times, they say its 'normal' for innovas. we have even had problems with getting PUC. toyota says we should do a 'engine cleanup service' everytime before we do PUC. it costs 8k. That means 8000 every 6 months is what toyota expects?

just a month back, i did this & they charged 8.5k, you can see in my ownership report.

The D-4D may be outdated in your book, Raj, but it does things that many other modern engines (which by your definition would mean engines with higher bhp & torque outputs per cc) fail to do. AND it meets current emission (BS-IV) standards by quite a few miles, which, in my book, is modern enough.

I would like an engine to be an all rounder. I am not going mud plugging or mountain climbing in my car, the innova is not meant for that. for these advantages, I cant accept an engine which is noisy, which emits smoke, which is low on power & which is not fuel efficient as well.

[dhanushs]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

even though it lasts only 3 lakh kms.

OK, how many Hyundai's have you personally seen lasting 3Lacks?

There are commuter segments. I hope you get the point.

[Aroy]

The Torque & HP figures we are brandishing, are the peak values at a high RPM. In real life you rarely use the engine consistently in that band. So it is the torque, and consequently the power, at desired RPM which is of interest to most of us. What I had commented on the 2.2L diesel of Scorpio and Safari, holds. On paper they have more power and torque, in reality out side ideal conditions, say in the hills, they suffer - starting problems, pulling power etc. Yes they are more efficient and return better FE and top speed, but in a day to day run it is the Innova and Bolero (again with its ancient engine) which rule.

There are far more Innova Taxis doing the Manali - Leh circuit that Mahindra and Tata cars. If the Innova was such a bad deal, Boleros and Scorpios would have taken over (as I have seen in interior Madhya Pradesh and Chattisgarh, where the roads are worst than Rohtang after rains and land slides).

I think that as most of us drive in cities and highways, can afford to change a vehicle every three to five years and normally drive less than 2K km/month, our perception of a good engine is one that will consume less fuel in this scenario and last our ownership. From that point of view the modern engines are much better. But if you have to run 5-10K km/month, frequently drive on bad/no roads, want reliable vehicle and are concerned about "Total Cost of Ownership" rather than fuel consumption only, then Innova fits the Bill much better than a high tech SUV, which has less reliability and costs a bomb to repair during high mileage ownership period.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by dhanushs

OK, how many Hyundai's have you personally seen lasting 3Lacks?

There are commuter segments. I hope you get the point.

To be honest, none. Because nobody in my friends circle or family has actually kept a vehicle for so long.

yes, but in karnataka, I had travelled in a taxi verna which had clocked almost 2 lakh kms. yes, the car was rattling & the suspension was squeaking, but the engine was running strong with good pulling power & fuel efficiency.

What I am trying to say here is that, a common man or a typical innova customer does not expect his engine to last 5 lakh kms, he does not expect his engine to pull through mud or climb mountains because that is not his intended purpose of buying the car. but he does expect good accelration & better refinement. Atleast I do, considering the price of the vehicle.

When we had the scorpio mHawk, I never used to drive the Innova. Infact it was only after we bought the scorpio & I drove both the cars back to back, that I realized how inferior the D-4D is, when compared to the mHawk. Note, I am comparing engines only & not the cars!

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

I have not heard a hyundai engine or mahindra engine stalling due to poor fuel either.
From day 1, my innova has been belching black smoke like anything.

I don't know about Hyundai, but Mahindra engines are known to have poor fuel related and cold start related issues in Ladakh, but the few taxiwallahs I spoke to did not report anything like that.

As to your Innova belching smoke from new and not passing emission tests, that's a first for me. At least in Delhi, PUC centres that I have spoken to report that Innovas, and even Qualises, invariably pass emission tests with flying colours, while the most difficult ones to pass are Indicas (old engine) and Taveras. In Ladakh, I specifically recall that while Safaris and Scorpios went up Khardung La as if their tails were on fire, Innovas showed minimal or no tailpipe smoke.

When I am spending 13 lakhs for the Innova, I would atleast expect a 120-130 bhp engine, if not more.

10 bhp per lakh? Now that's a nice new way to sort out our choices when looking to buy a new car! I suppose this will merit a new thread - BHP/lakh: Which is the most VFM car?

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

10 bhp per lakh? Now that's a nice new way to sort out our choices when looking to buy a new car! I suppose this will merit a new thread - BHP/lakh: Which is the most VFM car?

Nopes, it should be more! I spent 7.5 lakhs on my Punto, so i should be getting 75 bhp, but I am getting 93 bhp!!!

Anyways, I also agree that these bhp/torque figures sounds good when on paper, Some cars have good figures on the paper, but on the road, they are duds. Punto is a classic example. But if i do compare the D-4D with the mHawk, the D-4D feels shortchanged in every department. That is the reason I call it outdated.


Regarding poor fuel issues, our toyota A.S.S. blames us for the smoke in our innova stating that we must have been filling improper fuel. we have tried almost every other bunk in our area by now! another SA sheepishly admits that this is a problem with many innovas. After the recent 'clean up' service, the engine suddenly feels more responsive & refined. he says we should get this done every 40,000 kms!

So spend 8k every 40,000 kms to 'clean up' the engine & you are saying the engine is okay with poor quality fuel? Bah!

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

10 bhp per lakh? Now that's a nice new way to sort out our choices when looking to buy a new car! I suppose this will merit a new thread - BHP/lakh: Which is the most VFM car?

Then the Alto K10 wins the race 3.5L (now 3.25 after discounts), 67 HP ~ 20BPH/Lac!

Even the Fortuner with 170+ BHP is less than 10/L, but Scorpio 4x2 is > 11/L and at 9L the 4x2 Safari is 140/9, nearly 15. I would rate an Innova with its lower BHP/Lac a much better people mover compared to 4x2 Scorpio or Safari.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

...'clean up' service...
So spend 8k every 40,000 kms to 'clean up' the engine...

Raj, could you please elaborate about what 'clean up' is done during these services? Why do they cost 8+k?

Originally Posted by Aroy

Then the Alto K10 wins the race 3.5L (now 3.25 after discounts), 67 HP ~ 20BPH/Lac!

And one great vehicle to take to Ladakh too!

[kousik]

Actually we could then have a "sports" version of Innova.

Which'll not last 4 lakhs kilometers. Maybe half of it. People like me, who bought it for personal use, who clocked their Innova just 40000km in 6 years, and maybe will do 40000 more in next 4 or 5 before selling it off, wouldn't mind a little reduced lifetime if enough fun factor in obtained in the compromise.

I don't know if Pete's are popular among white-plate Innovas. But in theory it should, those guys do not plan to run 4x10^5 kilometers. Maybe a lakh in their lifetime.

I am contemplating a Pete's. So want an opinion, if such aftermarket performance boxes reduces the lifetime, any data available by how much? What's the drop in life expectancy of the engine? What's the percentage increase in sudden engine failure?

And of course, I wonder why doesn't Toyota sells a remapped ECU Innova as a premium version? Even at reduced lifetime, those aren't likely to hit the limit.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by kousik

I am contemplating a Pete's. So want an opinion, if such aftermarket performance boxes reduces the lifetime, any data available by how much? What's the drop in life expectancy of the engine? What's the percentage increase in sudden engine failure?

And of course, I wonder why doesn't Toyota sells a remapped ECU Innova as a premium version? Even at reduced lifetime, those aren't likely to hit the limit.

I don't know if you have read my thread but I have used Petes on my Innova on the 2nd setting that too for over 85k kms without a single hitch.