Team-BHP - TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines -Will these work properly with Indian petrol?

Interesting info Neil.Nhujbal,

However....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal (Post 2646970)

Don't know about other manufacturers but Mercedes in India won't sell the direct injection petrol engines with the name CGI. They won't have the CGI logo on trunk.

...this is not true. (Or is it a recent change?)

(There's a badged C200 CGI parked outside my window right now too)

Source Thread : http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ml#post1905165

cya
R

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal (Post 2646970)

It also proves TSI, TSFI, FSI, CGI Engines are useless in India.
(By useless I mean the stratified charge technology and not direct injection which is a part of it.)

Yesterday in workshop I had a chance to service a C-200 CGI. When I took it up on ramp I was surprised to find a normal exhaust rather than a complicated one with 2 catalytic converters, 4 sensors, bypass pipe etc which we had studied about.

So to cut it all in short these are just normal direct injection petrol engines running normal AF ratios.
They don't run on stratified mode (crazy lean mode) for which they are actually designed.

Reason : low octane fuel , they need atleast 95 Ron fuel.

Countries which have high octane fuel available have these engines running what they are designed for.

Don't know about other manufacturers but Mercedes in India won't sell the direct injection petrol engines with the name CGI. They won't have the CGI logo on trunk.

And all these pages we were discussing how are various manufacturers compensating for bad fuel when running on stratified mode LOL

Hi,
Some solid news at last.

Could you check out (from the parts catalogue) what catcon is being run in India. And how it matches with what is being sold abroad.

And could you check out from the OBD in what mode the engine is being run?

And time for some owners to drop a line to the manufacturers asking for a clarification.

Regards
Sutripta

PS. I still dont see the difficulty for a manufacturer to handle any octane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan (Post 2647014)

Interesting info Neil.Nhujbal,

However....

...this is not true. (Or is it a recent change?)

R

It looks like the "Blue Efficiency" badge may also be the next to go. Elsewhere Mercedes C200 CGI with Blue Efficiency badging have the following features that help in increasing fuel efficiency (however small it may be) which are not available on the models sold in India:

1. A power steering pump that disengages when it is not needed (traffic lights etc).

2. Six speed manual gearbox with an automatic start-stop function - admittedly difficult to handle in India's continual stop start city traffic.

3. Low rolling resistance tyres.

4. Smaller mirrors to reduce cd.

Looks like the Blue Efficiency badge was given to get customers to think they were getting the equivalent of rival B's "Efficient Dynamics".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal (Post 2647027)

Even the ones which we PDI have the badges but the next batch of cars won't :)
Atleast thats what we are told.

I think you are right. Spotted two facelifted c 200's without the cgi badge. Does that mean these cars arent turbocharged? Strange that mercedes decided to pull the plug on the CGI technology when the likes of skoda and audi continue to sell their TSI's and FSI's??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal (Post 2646970)

Yesterday in workshop I had a chance to service a C-200 CGI. When I took it up on ramp I was surprised to find a normal exhaust rather than a complicated one with 2 catalytic converters, 4 sensors, bypass pipe etc which we had studied about.

So to cut it all in short these are just normal direct injection petrol engines running normal AF ratios.
They don't run on stratified mode (crazy lean mode) for which they are actually designed.

Reason : low octane fuel , they need atleast 95 Ron fuel.

Countries which have high octane fuel available have these engines running what they are designed for.

Don't know about other manufacturers but Mercedes in India won't sell the direct injection petrol engines with the name CGI. They won't have the CGI logo on trunk.

And all these pages we were discussing how are various manufacturers compensating for bad fuel when running on stratified mode LOL

IIRC there are 2 versons of the engine, one stoich and one stratified. Even the US version is similar to the Indian one ie it does not have the lean NoX trap. The reason is more to do with price rather than fuel availability.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower (Post 2699601)

Possible.. but then they shouldn't be putting CGI badges on the stoich version engines. (which they were in the beginning)

Isn't MPFI (multi point fuel injection) engines which are used in ALL petrol cars now, direct injection engines? MPFI was essential to meet even BS2 norms IIRC.

4 injectors in my Indica Xeta, just like in CRDI.

I have always been under the impression that MPFI is direct injection. If its not, then, is the fuel injected into the inlet manifold just before the port?

I was under the impression that TSI is the next generation of MPFI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinj14 (Post 2699562)

The 200's are turbocharged its just that they wont be having the CGI badges. About Skoda and Audi we dont know weather they really run on stratified mode (lean mode) or just have the badges stuck behind.
(But they all re direct injection petrol engines)

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrat (Post 2706704)

Yes you are right MPFI / FI engines means the fuel is injectetd into the track of intake manifold before the head ports.

Where as direct injection petrol engines have fuel being injected directly into the cylinder just like the diesels.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal

Ok, so this is the reason for relatively lower system pressure in MPFI. The rail pressure in DI has to be much much higher (greater than pressure of compressed air in cylinder) to be injected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by autocrat (Post 2707427)

Ok, so this is the reason for relatively lower system pressure in MPFI. The rail pressure in DI has to be much much higher (greater than pressure of compressed air in cylinder) to be injected.

The rail pressure in Mecedes DI engines is 50bar at idel & 120 bar at full throttel.

The pump in the tank (feed pump) generates a pressure of 4bar & gives input to a high pressure pump (3 cylinder pump driven by camshaft) which finally generates the further pressure & stores it in the fuel rail.

In diesels the high pressure pump generates around 1800bar pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal (Post 2707335)

So im closing in on the c200 avantgarde. If everything goes well i should have by next week. They gave me some explanation about removing the cgi technology to make the cars more fuel efficient. So without the cgi system can these cars run on normal 91 ron petrol??

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinj14 (Post 2803102)

Removing CGI tech to make cars more fuel efficient ? lol:
You probably talked with a sales person.

Yes the cars can run on 91 without problem since CGI tech isnt really present. Its just a direct injection engine. Even if you use normal 89 octane in case of problem all the ECU values are reset & everything is taken care off during normal service of your vehicle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil.Bhujbal (Post 2803501)

Thanks. Just a question though. So the CGI technology makes the car more fuel efficient and possibly mildly more powerful right? But speed 97 costs 15rs more than normal unleaded petrol for litre. So even if the car gives you 1.5 or 2 kms more per litre you actually would not be saving much. Does this logic make sense?

Or are there other advantages in the CGI technology?

Also, do you have any idea about the FE i can expect on this car?

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinj14 (Post 2804650)

....Or are there other advantages in the CGI technology?

Lately, the industry move is towards more ECO-friendly / Green vehicles. The CGI technology has a higher fuel-economy (i.e. uses less fuel per kilometer), therefore creating less pollution per kilometer.

cya
R