[mayuresh]

During first servicing of my Tata Safari, the TASS lost the remote.

Described this incidence on my ownership thread:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ownership.html

I have some technical questions:

1. To ensure that the no one can open the car using the lost remote, they have disabled the remote. Now they say I'll get one new remote and the code on my spare remote will be changed. However they say that the secret code that is handed over at the time of car purchase will remain same. How is that possible? Shouldn't the secret code change if the remote comes with a new code?

2. How did they manage to disable the remote at the service station without getting my secret code? So isn't the immboilization fool proof since they could do that?

3. After they disabled the remote, the central locking, too, is not working. At present I have to lock each door separately, till I get new remote from them. How is central locking related to whether you lock using remote or manually? Have they probably broken central locking while trying to disable the remote?

Please enlighten me if anyone has any idea about how these features are implemented in a car.

[VeyronSuperSprt]

Originally Posted by mayuresh

During first servicing of my Tata Safari, the TASS lost the remote.

Described this incidence on my ownership thread:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ownership.html

I have some technical questions:

1. To ensure that the no one can open the car using the lost remote, they have disabled the remote. Now they say I'll get one new remote and the code on my spare remote will be changed. However they say that the secret code that is handed over at the time of car purchase will remain same. How is that possible? Shouldn't the secret code change if the remote comes with a new code?

2. How did they manage to disable the remote at the service station without getting my secret code? So isn't the immboilization fool proof since they could do that?

3. After they disabled the remote, the central locking, too, is not working. At present I have to lock each door separately, till I get new remote from them. How is central locking related to whether you lock using remote or manually? Have they probably broken central locking while trying to disable the remote?

Please enlighten me if anyone has any idea about how these features are implemented in a car.

Please note the responses pointwise:

1. The factory will have the remote codes given to each car. This is similar to the key profiles (number) supplied to each car which is retained by them. This is done so as to provide for replacement in case of loss of remote / keys etc. The remote given to you will be programmed with the original code as the internal ECU will recognise that code.

Disabling the code in the ECU and providing a new code is a different procedure and that is usually not resorted to by most manfacturers.

2. The secret code has no connection with the deactivation of the remote. Remote deactivation is done by a manufacturer specific procedure (such as turning the ignition key on and off 8 times in less than 10 seconds - please do not try this at home). The immobilization is not relevant since the car was open.

3. The remote and the central locking work in tandem so when the remote is disabled the central locking will also be disabled.

Hope this helps.

[mayuresh]

Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt

Disabling the code in the ECU and providing a new code is a different procedure and that is usually not resorted to by most manfacturers.

Thanks VeyronSuperSprt.

I find it imperative to change the code to ensure stolen remote doesn't work
anymore.

From your reply, I understand, there are two different codes altogether having
no relation to each other:

1. The code that works as a key between the internal unit and the remote. This
can be changed in event like above.

2. Secret code given to the customer to overcome immbolized state in case of
emergency. Change in remote does not affect this code as it belongs to the
internal unit.

Please clarify if it's otherwise.

[VeyronSuperSprt]

Originally Posted by mayuresh

Please clarify if it's otherwise.

Yes, what you have stated is right.

[Pedaltothefloor]

Tass lost my remote key while I went to take delivery after the first service today. While I managed to get the car home using the secondary key, I don't have the code card to disable the lost key. The code card was lost by the dealer at the time of delivery and I have ensured that they have sent an email to Fiat to request for the code card.

While I am waiting for the code card, do I need to inform the insurance company or file a FIR? TASS misplaced the key and they have my address so in principle, they can pretty much come over and take the car away.

What exactly needs to be done?

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by Pedaltothefloor

What exactly needs to be done?

Get it in Writing that the Key has been lost at A.S.S so that they are reponsible for any thefts. It would be an option to go to the Police station and file an FIR to be on the safer side.

Question to Other Fiat owners - can the key be disabled by FIAT and if by chance the disabled/lost key is found? can the vehicle be opened/started? I am pretty sure we cannot open/start the vehicle, but just in case. (I do not own a Punto)

Fight for your rights and ask them to change all locks at thier cost / warranty as one can enter your car with the key and steal the belongings, if not take away the car.

[infotech58]

Originally Posted by Pedaltothefloor

Tass lost my remote key while I went to take delivery after the first service today. While I managed to get the car home using the secondary key, I don't have the code card to disable the lost key. The code card was lost by the dealer at the time of delivery and I have ensured that they have sent an email to Fiat to request for the code card.
What exactly needs to be done?

escalate to Fiat India, and if TASS can not find the key, negotiate with them to get the locksets replaced at their cost (also check with your insurance, some policies cover replacement of locksets if key is lost).

if your car gets stolen, and you fail to produce both the keys to your insurance provider, they can and in most cases will reject your claim.

[evilshantanu]

It is the service center's fault, ask them to replace all the keys including the code card.
This is more serious as it seems, in case of a theft of the car, you have to produce both the keys to the insurance company, otherwise you dont get even a single penny. Even if you have this in writing from the service center that they lost the key, this wont help...

Additionally you dont know who has your key right now, might be a car stealing nexus where even some mechanics from the service center are involved. I am not trying to scare you, but just be cautious, and get behind the service center to mend their fault

[joybhowmik]

First things first. Secure your car by chaining chassis to a pillar/tree near where someone can constantly monitor it. Second, chase the problem of the key with the Customer Care of Fiat. Threaten them with legal action if they dont change out all locks and replace all keys including reprogramming/resetting the security system.

[Pedaltothefloor]

I just wrote to Fiat asking them if they can replace all locks under warranty. I also wrote to the dealer to get me the code card at the earliest. Even Tass has sent a separate mail to Fiat to get the code card to disable the lost key.
I will now speak to my insurance company and check if they want to file a FIR.

Wouldn't Fiat have some record of the code and be able to disable it remotely. I am ok if the car is permanently disabled till the new keys are configured. I guess Mercedes/BMW etc have that engine disable option, right?

Thanks a lot to everybody who took the time to respond. I am just hoping that I am not the first guy facing this issue and somebody who went through a similar instance will come along and share some insight.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Pedaltothefloor

Tass lost my remote key while I went to take delivery after the first service today. While I managed to get the car home using the secondary key, I don't have the code card to disable the lost key. The code card was lost by the dealer at the time of delivery and I have ensured that they have sent an email to Fiat to request for the code card.

While I am waiting for the code card, do I need to inform the insurance company or file a FIR? TASS misplaced the key and they have my address so in principle, they can pretty much come over and take the car away.

What exactly needs to be done?

Few years back a friend's Verna keys were stolen at the dealer. The dealer got new keys without informing my friend, the next day car was stolen. My advice- Do not take the issue lightly. Get the key unpaired(if it can be) at the dealer. A dedicated thread on Team-BHP was posted then.

Few years back a Fiat Service center damaged my Punto's primary key, initially they refused but they had to get me a replacement key free of charge. The key costs 6k, it takes months to arrives as it is shipped from Italy.

EDIT: Here is the link to first incident: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...i-gurgaon.html
Other one is in my Punto ownership thread.

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

Few years back a friend's Verna keys were stolen at the dealer. The dealer got new keys without informing my friend, the next day car was stolen.

Anshuman - Please help understand my version of the incident..

Assume car keys are lost and dealer replaces them. By Logic, We would have to get the replacement locks fit at the dealer/a.s.s itself. What prevents the A.S.S from making an "unofficial" copy of the new lock set key and then stealing my car 2 days later? The A.S.S would jolly well know my Address, have a copy of my key and in fact have a copy of the immobilizer code also.

[ghostrider]

Originally Posted by scopriobharath

Anshuman - Please help understand my version of the incident..

Assume car keys are lost and dealer replaces them. By Logic, We would have to get the replacement locks fit at the dealer/a.s.s itself. What prevents the A.S.S from making an "unofficial" copy of the new lock set key and then stealing my car 2 days later? The A.S.S would jolly well know my Address, have a copy of my key and in fact have a copy of the immobilizer code also.

Everyday, we give our car keys to valets and parking attendants. When we send our cars for services, we leave the keys behind. We even give them to the guys who wash our cars so that they can clean them from the inside. What stops any of these people from making duplicate keys at any time? (Yes, I know there are immobilizers and chips embedded within keys, etc etc... but none of this makes your car theftproof).

There has to be a little faith involved, but you should still play extreme hardball with TASS to ensure your lock are changed at their expense.

[chinmaybaikar]

Originally Posted by Pedaltothefloor

Tass lost my remote key while I went to take delivery after the first service today. While I managed to get the car home using the secondary key, I don't have the code card to disable the lost key. The code card was lost by the dealer at the time of delivery and I have ensured that they have sent an email to Fiat to request for the code card.

While I am waiting for the code card, do I need to inform the insurance company or file a FIR? TASS misplaced the key and they have my address so in principle, they can pretty much come over and take the car away.

What exactly needs to be done?

Pretty serious problem. What is this code card?? Is it some code to disable the keys?? And where does it come from?? Better secure your car at some of your friend's garage till the issue is sorted out.

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by chinmaybaikar

What is this code card?? Is it some code to disable the keys??

The Key has a code embedded in it so that the ECU /immobilizer reads that and starts the engine. the Code card will "remove" the ECU verification code from the key, so that the key is now just a standard key (similar to your house key).

With the recent few posts, I infer that A.S.S must change all locks and provide a new digital key. The only place where one can get a duplicate immobilizer key is the A.S.S and in the unlikely event of a theft in Future, we can take the A.S.S to task.