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Old 21st January 2015, 12:17   #46
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

So, friends, what will be the right way forward? Should I pay the amount quoted and get it repaired or sell off the vehicle in this condition. Many mechanics who are known to me and this issue is advising me not to go for repairs. I don't feel that ethical. Hence pondering over this issue. Please advise.

Last edited by drdeepudev : 21st January 2015 at 12:18. Reason: typo
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Old 21st January 2015, 12:29   #47
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Doc, it is kind of strange that the engine is consuming so much oil and still no symptoms related to oil consumption. Fiat's advice of changing half engine kit is not justified without getting to the root of the problem. Is a Fiat customer supposed to spend couple of lacs every few thousand kms for their love for Fiat?

Also, it will be interesting to see how Maruti or Tata deal with the situation when such problems arise in their cars for which they sourced Fiat engines.
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Old 21st January 2015, 12:38   #48
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by saket77 View Post
Doc, it is kind of strange that the engine is consuming so much oil and still no symptoms related to oil consumption. Fiat's advice of changing half engine kit is not justified without getting to the root of the problem. Is a Fiat customer supposed to spend couple of lacs every few thousand kms for their love for Fiat?

Also, it will be interesting to see how Maruti or Tata deal with the situation when such problems arise in their cars for which they sourced Fiat engines.
Same thoughts here. That's why I call this issue " curious case of disappearing oil". For 85,000km I had spent around 65,000 rs( which I can calculate through bills with me minus the amount of fuel I had to use for doing the 140km trip 2 ways for getting things done.)

Im requesting them to please diagnose the issue. But for that they will have to open up the engine. Even I asked them to escalate the issue without much success. They say piston rings have worn off and oil is burning. But my doubt is, in that case, compression test has to show some signs right. Im no expert in mechanics. Hence this question.

Im not sure whether they have done every thing to point out to piston rings.

And fiat customer care is something to be talked off. Not sure whether they are reading the mails sent. Does some one have some contacts of higherups?
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Old 21st January 2015, 12:53   #49
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

maintenance of engines should not be uniform across India. For example what works in Chandigarh, Punjab and Bangalore, Karnataka or Pune, MH with moderate ambient temperatures with good quality highways cannot be applicable to Mumbai, MH or Cochin, Kerala. High ambient temperatures, stop & start traffic, short distance drives below 7 kms, high moisture content can take a toll on engine oil and reduce timing chain life.

A basic comparison should be made between Normal service & severe service. Former is a case of normal service and latter can be a case of severe service, where engine oil should be changed every 5k or 6 months, whichever falls earlier. 10-15K or 1 year can only be exceptional cases where you have driven the car mostly either in cooler temperatures early in morning or late night or most driving has been done on highways or golden quadrilateral type expressways during said period.
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Old 21st January 2015, 13:05   #50
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by drdeepudev View Post
And fiat customer care is something to be talked off. Not sure whether they are reading the mails sent. Does some one have some contacts of higherups?
As someone who knows the Linea MJD inside out, and yet someone, who does not actually own it , here are my comments:

The compression test results are perfectly okay. The smoke is level is perfectly normal, given the odo reading. And if you opine that the engine power loss is not evident, clearly, the issue is not with the engine, per se.

A] I presume that the car has been checked throughly? If the oil loss is the main issue in concern, first check if the turbo (and it's assorted ancillaries- viz. The Intercooler, et cetera) is fine or not. Lack of power loss says, that stuff should be fine, although, I suggest that you look again.

B] If found okay, proceed to the cooling system. I vividly recall a case few years ago, wherein the oil seals in the radiator, which were connected to the engine failed. The Selenia and the Paraflu coolant, thus decided to have a little party.

But- This would lead to overheating, and your main concern is oil loss.

Perhaps this page shall help a bit more as regards to what I'm thinking: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ml#post3599161

C] If all parameters have been found to be absolutely normal, and perfect, open up the MJD. First suspect- The Head Gasket. Replace if necessary. If oil rings are fine as well, then the issue starts.

To sum it up: If I were you, I would have the entire car checked up. If all factors are okay, and if the cause is undetermineable, have the MJD opened up. Since the engine would be opened up anyway, I'd just change the rings, and the belt and forget the thing.

The full engine overhaul (incl. Block- etc) is to be avoided. Yet, if I were in your place, and if the car happened to be dear to myself, and considering the relatively low mileage (85k is next to nothing for a diesel), I would keep it. And cough up the money required. Sometimes- One needs to do it. Sadly.

For now, another option I'd try first is- take the car off FIAT's hands, and run it. Take it to a very competent FNG. VERY competent. Take the second opinion. Try to then- do the job at FASS. Tell them to do the needful, w/o mentioning that xyz FNG told you to do so. Or- Take a cousin or some family member. Introduce him to the FASS as a mech. enginner.

And- make this relative of yours say the FNG's opinion. With conviction. And make them DO it. See- It might just work!

If nothing arises, sell off the MJD. Set a timeline, say 6 months. If, by June/July '15 the car is still problematic, exchange it. Some things are not worth the trouble. Honestly.

Last edited by FINTAIL : 21st January 2015 at 13:09.
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Old 21st January 2015, 13:10   #51
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by lurker View Post
maintenance of engines should not be uniform across India. For example what works in Chandigarh, Punjab and Bangalore, Karnataka or Pune, MH with moderate ambient temperatures with good quality highways cannot be applicable to Mumbai, MH or Cochin, Kerala. High ambient temperatures, stop & start traffic, short distance drives below 7 kms, high moisture content can take a toll on engine oil and reduce timing chain life.

A basic comparison should be made between Normal service & severe service. Former is a case of normal service and latter can be a case of severe service, where engine oil should be changed every 5k or 6 months, whichever falls earlier. 10-15K or 1 year can only be exceptional cases where you have driven the car mostly either in cooler temperatures early in morning or late night or most driving has been done on highways or golden quadrilateral type expressways during said period.
True. Geographically and meteorologically there are changes in regions. Traffic conditions also differ. At least officials should acknowledge this fact. I have a usage of around 3500kms a month. These days in not using the linea for dialy runs. Purchased a thunderbird 350 on October 3 2014 and till date it has clocked 9700kms.

Im looking for a way out. How to handle this is an issue and is taxing.

There are no signs of escalation.
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Old 21st January 2015, 13:10   #52
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Im requesting them to please diagnose the issue. But for that they will have to open up the engine.
Why don't you play around with your oil for a bit before giving it to the ASS for engine opening and what not. These guys have taken to the older lot of Fiat Padmini mechanics who open up engines for every small reason, it used to be their favorite hobby at the owners expense. Change your oil to mineral type which is slightly more thicker than synthetic oils and see if that will help seal the valve cover better and also change the oil filter. Also check if these mechanics use torque wrenches to tighten the bolts on the valve cover better. Maybe one of these cover bolts have come slightly loose and letting in air resulting in oil burn.
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Old 21st January 2015, 13:20   #53
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

I have felt that the 15K service interval is a bit too long for a car to see the service center given the conditions in India. Start-stop traffic and high temperatures compared to the home countries of these cars definitely ask for a shorter service interval. Disappointing to see that most global cars in sold in India do not have specific information display like that of engine oil. Rather it is basically replaced by a service interval light, that too in some models only.
In fact, some manufacturers have classified India under severe driving conditions country with service intervals as low as 3 to 6 months and 5K kms!

PS: Agree with Lurker's post. You can play around a little with the engine oil grades. Use a wee bit thicker grade and see how the engine responds with respect to consumption.

Last edited by saket77 : 21st January 2015 at 13:30.
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Old 21st January 2015, 13:29   #54
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post

For now, another option I'd try first is- take the car off FIAT's hands, and run it. Take it to a very competent FNG. VERY competent. Take the second opinion. Try to then- do the job at FASS. Tell them to do the needful, w/o mentioning that xyz FNG told you to do so. Or- Take a cousin or some family member. Introduce him to the FASS as a mech. enginner.

And- make this relative of yours say the FNG's opinion. With conviction. And make them DO it. See- It might just work!

If nothing arises, sell off the MJD. Set a timeline, say 6 months. If, by June/July '15 the car is still problematic, exchange it. Some things are not worth the trouble. Honestly.
Thanks for the detailed reply.

There is no engine overheating issue. Temperature gauge is always in the normal half way mark.

Will check the coolant for any oil stains as you said and will post the update.
When the car was getting serviced from Tata, they have used some green coolant and it was reducing rapidly. I took the car to hyson fiat and they said its not the correct spec ( I agree) and filled paraflu ( red one) and no loss there after. But ill check

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker View Post
Why don't you play around with your oil for a bit before giving it to the ASS for engine opening and what not. These guys have taken to the older lot of Fiat Padmini mechanics who open up engines for every small reason, it used to be their favorite hobby at the owners expense. Change your oil to mineral type which is slightly more thicker than synthetic oils and see if that will help seal the valve cover better and also change the oil filter. Also check if these mechanics use torque wrenches to tighten the bolts on the valve cover better. Maybe one of these cover bolts have come slightly loose and letting in air resulting in oil burn.
Good thought there. I was thinking of mineral oil like 10w 30 or 15 w 40. I hope this wont make issue in long run in this part of India. Im worried about the specification though. Fiat recommends ACEA A3/B3/B4 specified oils and I have seen only Castro magnatec diesel 15w40 with similar spec. But sadly its not available in my town. Please advise.

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Last edited by noopster : 21st January 2015 at 14:27.
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Old 21st January 2015, 13:41   #55
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Get 15W-40 from 99rpm or 10W-30 shellhelix from ebay.

Use it for 2 consecutive oil changes at 6 month interval. And then after an year go back to the Selenia or any other synthetic oil. This is what my instinct tell me.
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Old 21st January 2015, 15:11   #56
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Im looking for a way out. How to handle this is an issue and is taxing.
There are no signs of escalation.
Just received a call from fiat asking about the complaint i registered for the same issue . The dealer was connected to the call and i asked the dealer whether this is a common issue or an isolated one .When the CRM started to wash of his hands i told them that i can refer a minimum of 5 cars in and around the same area which is facing the same issue ,Hearing that he agreed that it is not an isolated issue and they promised to call me back within 3 hours
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Old 21st January 2015, 16:20   #57
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

Same case here. Received a call from fiat customer care and they were referring me to Hyson cochin. When told about my interaction with them and on requesting him to connect me to a different dealer, I was connected to crm of marikar fiat Kottayam. Had a talk with him and as usual I was requested to bring the car. He told he will check it thoroughly and escalate the issue to fiat technical team. Also he added 90% of cases they had to replace half engine block just as hyson people say. Confused.
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Old 21st January 2015, 19:12   #58
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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When the CRM started to wash of his hands i told them that i can refer a minimum of 5 cars in and around the same area which is facing the same issue ,Hearing that he agreed that it is not an isolated issue and they promised to call me back within 3 hours
They promised to call you within 3 hours.

More than 3 hours are over- Hopefully they've called.

For the end user- Business as usual, as regards to dealing with the FIAT ASC. First we had a problem with the ASC. Not with the car. Now, when we are okay with their attitudes, it so happens that FIAT's flagship- The Linea MJD is affected by a particular problem at higher mileage intervals. The issue- The car being underpowered is one thing, and YET- Losing oil and assorted melodrama due to what should be a simple timing chain/belt is another thing.

I was under the impression- A] Timing chains are supposed to last the life of the engine.
B] Timing belt (not chains), are meant to be typical high-mileage car service items, at most dealerships.

Why does it happen: People say- Service intervals. Personally- I have another finding. See- The damage to the engine ancillaries will be negligible in case of high service intervals. However- The engine's tune- that is the way it blurts out power is also one of the main causes.

The 2009-10 Linea's were known for the turbo kick. Obviously, I know a kick is captivating to the enthusiasts like us, but it can be somewhat stressful for the (timing chain of) MJD, because of its tune (turbo kick- that is), and the weight it had to lug around.

The 2012 Linea's- They had a minor update around that time, which would've included a slight change in engine maps as well- resulting in hardly any complaints from the '12 Linea's side.

Fast forward to 2014: All people are cribbing- The Linea has lost so much of it's turbo kick, and the engine is more linear (pun intended!), acceleration wise.

There you people have your answer- The engine tune, and subsequent changes to it are some of the measures over the years that FIAT has possibly taken, so as to reduce potential engine damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drdeepudev View Post
He told he will check it thoroughly and escalate the issue to fiat technical team. Also he added 90% of cases they had to replace half engine block just as hyson people say. Confused.
Escalation is welcome! Alternatively, you may visit the FIAT India site, and see what options they have for contacting the company's HQ. You may raise hell there, if you so wish.

To all others suffering from this issue: Imagine that you had known absolutely known nothing about cars. Then? Remember- There is always an answer to everything. Proper investigation, and maintainence are needed so as to sustain perfect automotive conditions, and the customers end happiness.

Wake UP FIAT! (They never do. Ironically!)

Last edited by FINTAIL : 21st January 2015 at 19:16.
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Old 21st January 2015, 19:33   #59
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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They promised to call you within 3 hours.

More than 3 hours are over- Hopefully they've called.
Nope No Calls Received till now .

Quote:
Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
The damage to the engine ancillaries will be negligible in case of high service intervals. However- The engine's tune- that is the way it blurts out power is also one of the main causes.

The 2012 Linea's- They had a minor update around that time, which would've included a slight change in engine maps as well- resulting in hardly any complaints from the '12 Linea's side.

Fast forward to 2014: All people are cribbing- The Linea has lost so much of it's turbo kick, and the engine is more linear (pun intended!), acceleration wise.

There you people have your answer- The engine tune, and subsequent changes to it are some of the measures over the years that FIAT has possibly taken, so as to reduce potential engine damage.
Thank You for the detailed reply.

Yes I have same opinion. I think fiat already knew about such issues and they may have released a internal circular to dealership saying if such issue were reported ask the customer to replace half engine .That's why all the dealerships have the same answer. In the mean time they silently updated the engine

Last edited by justin.das : 21st January 2015 at 19:38.
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Old 21st January 2015, 19:43   #60
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Default Re: Fiat Linea and Fiat Punto (90 BHP) Owners. Timing chain issue & recall

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Originally Posted by FINTAIL View Post
1.The 2009-10 Linea's were known for the turbo kick. Obviously, I know a kick is captivating to the enthusiasts like us, but it can be somewhat stressful for the (timing chain of) MJD, because of its tune (turbo kick- that is), and the weight it had to lug around.
2.The 2012 Linea's- They had a minor update around that time, which would've included a slight change in engine maps as well- resulting in hardly any complaints from the '12 Linea's side.
3.There you people have your answer- The engine tune, and subsequent changes to it are some of the measures over the years that FIAT has possibly taken, so as to reduce potential engine damage.

4.Escalation is welcome! Alternatively, you may visit the FIAT India site, and see what options they have for contacting the company's HQ. You may raise hell there, if you so wish.

To all others suffering from this issue: Imagine that you had known absolutely known nothing about cars. Then? Remember- There is always an answer to everything. Proper investigation, and maintainence are needed so as to sustain perfect automotive conditions, and the customers end happiness.

Wake UP FIAT! (They never do. Ironically!)
1.I agree. The kick was good and we can feel it. Shift the gear to third, revv the engine, and yes, people who have felt it will know that feeling.
2.I have not driven the later model.Im aware of the update. Even I have not received any communication from fiat regarding reducing the oil change interval, nor about this timing chain update. After seeing this thread i had to confirm from the dealer whether my vehicle is also in the campaign.
3. that is why i called myself a guinea pig/ lab rat. if they identified the problem, why did fiat not roll the update to earlier models?

4.let me see what is going to happen. Fiat was good enough to replace few things in my car during warranty time and i was quite happy with that and could not complain much. Now is the real test.

Last edited by drdeepudev : 21st January 2015 at 19:50. Reason: reducing the quoted text.
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