Team-BHP - Solutions to a Stiff / Hard Gearshift

Quote:

Originally Posted by frequentflyer (Post 3042784)

A couple of time before I sold my Fusion 2006, I noticed after crossing a 100-150 km on a long drive, the gears became hard. They returned to normal after the car was parked for a while and again hardened when one drove for 50-100 km. In the city it is not noticeable at all as rides are 15-20 km. I did not get it checked as it was not hampering my normal driving though. The running was about 60-65000 at the time.

I think you meant to say that your clutch became harder to push, if this happens after a long drive it is a problem with the master cylinder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mayankk (Post 3040943)

I had a similar issue on my fiesta. The pattern however, was, after driving for 80 odd kms, the shift became hard. Harpreet was unable to diagnose, as it always absconded at the workshop. :)
Well, eventually, one day the master cylinder gave way, was replaced, and there has never been a problem since You may want to get that checked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catalyst_delhi (Post 3043484)

I think you meant to say that your clutch became harder to push, if this happens after a long drive it is a problem with the master cylinder.

AFAIK master cylinder operates brakes. What is the connection of Master Cylinder with clutch and Gears?

I own a Indica Vista TDI March 2009 model which has been driven 17k kms till now.

Problem1: I have problem engaging 1st gear especially while downshifting. It becomes quite hard and difficult to engage especially when the speeds are a little bit high (not so high that should not be engaged). I had this problem from past many kms but the frequency of sudden hardshifts have started increasing. This hardshift doesnot occur always but occurs randomly. And this randomness has started increasing. Sometimes even gear clashes occur and the gear cannot be engaged but then its again sometimes.

TASC told me that might be I am not depressing the clutch fully while engaging 1st gear. But I dont feel so. If I dont depress the clutch fully then I should be having problems in other gears also.

Problem 2:
In 4th and 5th gears at speeds above 70 kmph if the engine rpm goes below 2000 rpm the gear lever starts rattling and makes irritating noise. If I hold it the noise stops but I can feel the vibrations in the Gear lever. Earlier I thought this was engine lugging but I am above 70kmph in 5th gear and accelerating fast ie. not putting load on the engine. The remedy is I slot it to 4th raise the rpms above 2200 rpm and then shift to 5th and it stops for some temporary time.

Following are the ways I plan to resolve the problem.

I have an extended warranty valid till 20th March. Can I utilize the same for this problem at TASC? I have defaulted on not changing the Gearbox oil as per the time schedule (not as per the no. of kms driven). Can they dishonour my extended warranty?

I fear the TASC capabilities and especially because my gearbox otherwise works fine for all other gears, I dont want them to screw the gearbox more. I dont want to loose on the company fit assembly quality.
Other way could be I show it to a reputed mechanic and get its opinion without opening the gearbox.

Technically what could be the reasons for this random hard shifting and sometimes even to the extent of clashing. Sometimes when clashing occurs I feel I might be also at fault for leaving clutch early before 1st gear getting engaged fully. Normally the clashing occurs when the synchronizer is not properly centralized or the synchro friction material is worn over. But I dont feel that it can occur for only 17k kms run vehicle.
If I pull the clutch pedal in the opposite direction of travel while disengaging it can be raised around 15-20mm. Does this mean it has excessive free play? Can this also cause hard shifting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by prateekm (Post 3048547)

My driving instructor had specifically told me to engage first only when you start the car from standstill, and shift to second at the first opportunity.

Classic practice & instructions by instructors, and the root cause for lugging. These instructors will never ever even accept that there is something called lugging.

Btw, Prateek, I am still not able to understand how is that point of early shifting related to the problem reported by OP here ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by condor (Post 3048582)

Classic practice & instructions by instructors, and the root cause for lugging. These instructors will never ever even accept that there is something called lugging.

Not really. Lugging happens in gears like 3,4,5 and not in 2nd gear. What his instructor said is right because 1st gear is made short to move from a standstill. Once on the move, it's best to shift to 2nd. Revving in 1st gear after gaining momentum is useless especially in a diesel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftdiesel (Post 3048604)

But I sometimes feel although that the car is in motion but it still struggles to drive ahead in second with reduced pickup which is not acceptable in traffic. Might be this is the case with my heavy Vista with a TDI (not a Quadrajet) engine. So I think lugging can occur in 2nd gear also.

Quote:

Originally Posted by condor (Post 3048582)

@Amit, downshift to 1st only below 10. Most times, you dont need to downshift to 1st - unless you are going over a speed breaker.
Reagding the behaviour in 4/5th, please go all out and make use of the 1 month time you have. Speak to other Mumbai BHP-ians to locate a good TASS. That problem should not be there, and at that speed it is definitely not lugging. 70 in 5th more than most people do. (70 also is when I move to 5th)

Classic practice & instructions by instructors, and the root cause for lugging. These instructors will never ever even accept that there is something called lugging.

Btw, Prateek, I am still not able to understand how is that point of early shifting related to the problem reported by OP here ?

I really need to drive another cars to understand whether engaging 1st gear becomes difficult above 10 kms/hr. Obviously I also dont engage the 1st gear at insane speeds to get a jerk but I have never checked whether I shift below 10 kmph.
I agree with you that 1st gear in a car is supposed to be used not only when moving from stand still and and also when the car is not at standstill. Also in traffic if we do not engage 1st gear the pickup in 2nd gear is sometimes too much to control and then again I have to slow down by applying brakes.

Are the above repairs included in Extended warranty especially when I have skipped replacing the gearbox oil at the proper interval? I hope they don't find it out and honour my extended warranty. After all I have been a good customer and have lived happily with some minor niggles:D without any complaining.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amit_purohit20 (Post 3048801)

Also in traffic if we do not engage 1st gear the pickup in 2nd gear is sometimes too much to control and then again

Are the above repairs included in Extended warranty especially when I have skipped replacing the gearbox oil at the proper interval?

My understanding is that there is more power in lower gears than in higher gears. But what you say about 2nd gear would be about driveability.

Regarding the wty, patao your SA ! :) Hopefully they will still honor it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftdiesel (Post 3048604)

Not really. Lugging happens in gears like 3,4,5 and not in 2nd gear.

Actually, the only gear where Lugging CANNOT happen is in first. What you feel about lugging not happening in 2nd gear is more due to the way ECU is programmed to behave. It will happen in 2nd gear & upwards, and is more pronounced in higher gears. It is not limited to diesels, but with today's ECU supported engines, there is hardly any difference in how a petrol or diesel will behave. You need to look at old school petrols & diesels to really see the basic, un-modified behaviour of gears vs speeds.

About revving in 1st gear: the same thing happens as with lugging. With each successive gear, the revving is of less use in the lower gear.

And let's leave those instructors aside. Driving schools only teach how to manage a car in traffic. They dont know about how to use a car right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by condor (Post 3048805)

My understanding is that there is more power in lower gears than in higher gears. But what you say about 2nd gear would be about driveability.....

And let's leave those instructors aside. Driving schools only teach how to manage a car in traffic. They dont know about how to use a car right.

I think you wanted to say that there is more torque available at the driving wheels due to the high gearing ratio in 1st and 2nd gears.
Yes driveability is a point where I am really not happy with Vista TDI:
1) Huge turbo lag and things get easier only after 2000 rpm.
2) Additional weight of Vista as compared to Indica and the same TDI engine.
3) And being an IDI engine and not a Common rail engine affects the driveability.
Inspite of my low running mileage and knowing the above I opted for this model because I was getting a diesel engine for only 35k more On-road than the petrol version and once the turbo kicks in things are really very good. So city driving is a pain but not highway driving (where my car mostly runs)! IDI engines are not very susceptible to fuel quality variations like Common rail engines:OT

Wish GTO or the team-bhp team here had evaluated the TDI version and a review was there for VISTA TDI!

Quote:

Originally Posted by condor (Post 3049686)

@Amit, my FiL has a 3 year old Vista TDi, and we dont see the two problems that you have mentioned. Do get it checked quickly, and make use of the 3-4 weeks of extended warranty that you have (if required).

Update:
The last time I had the problem of Gear level rattling when the Engine was under load especially above 70kmph speeds in fifth gear was when I was returning from Bangalore to Pune. I was also having the problem of engine making lot of noises when I used to start from still in 1st gear - a rattling noise use to come whenever the engine was loaded. I had told the TASC to sort it out during the service but they did not. One fine day I got irritated and I opened the bonnet (proves how lazy I am :) ) to find that a pipe behind the intercooler was dangling in air with its bracket separated from its mounting point on the chassis firewall. The nut holding the bolt had fallen off and so the pipe would vibrate hard touching the chassis and then the intercooler back side making all those weird noises. So I just put the nut and tightened it and it solved the engine noise problem, but I was thinking that still the gear lever rattling noise is there because I never got to test it on free highway like the Pune-Bangalore highway.

Today as my extended warranty period is nearing its end I approached two TASC'S and tried replicating the noise on Ahmednagar highway but I could not do it to the same level it was earlier. So I conclude now that the dangling noise used to vibrate whenever the engine was loaded and perhaps I used to feel that the noise was coming from the lever. But still this does not explain the pulsating vibrations I used to feel at the Gear lever. Now the problem is solved or either I could not replicate it properly due to the heavy traffic on highway. So I am assuming that the nut solved the problem and I need not do anything further!

Quote:

Originally Posted by condor (Post 3049686)

I did a thorough servicing today, changed all the fluids and the rear wheel bearing at a FNH garage. But I again started getting vibrations at the Gear lever. But as soon as the garage guys take it for a test ride I am not able to replicate the gear lever rattling noise.Although in this gearbox the gear lever is connected via a push pull cable to the main gearbox, but still I can clearly feel the vibrations and the feeling of a rotating part rubbing against a still part ie. a rotating synchronizer coupling rubbing against a stationary fork. If this is the real case I know for sure that those days are not far when I will have to open the complete gearbox to replace the worn fork. I also think this can be an issue of fork centratlisation with respect to the synchro coupling.

Now if I cant replicate it in front of the garage guy, they are not ready to do anything. How can this situation be handled? Especially as my extended warranty is ending on 19th of March. Any other thoughts of convincing the TATA ASS to take up this job.