Over and Under steer and how to tackle them.

Shan2nu · 5th June 2004, 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Tom @ June 06 2004,01:08)]SO how do u get a front wheel drive car to slide the rear on a corner?

One way is to use broader tyres on the front wheels so that they provide more traction at the front.

So what happens is that the rear tyres will reach their traction limit faster and will start sliding, while the front tyres which are broader and are designed to provide more traction will hold on to it's line.

Another way is to apply hand brakes so that they lock the rear tyres and make them lose traction.

Regards...
Shan2nu

Sam · 5th June 2004, 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Tom @ June 05 2004,15:08)]SO how do u get a front wheel drive car to slide the rear on a corner?

Ok I am going to explain this but im scared someone is going to try this and it will horribly fail. So do not attempt this in narrow alleys or anywhere near human civilisation. Do it where u have an open plane and make sure there are no potholes anywhere near, as a tyre hiting a pothole laterally will cause the car to lift off and flip. So now that u are scared as hell here it goes...

The easiest way to oversteer is to do just that. Take a car at a reasonable speed (not too fast not too slow) then when the corner is about to be taken turn the wheel to lock as fast as humanly possible, the tail will come out if u have optimum speed.The faster u go the less likely it will work, coz then u will understeer as that is what FWD cars do and too slow u will be driving as if u are taking a lesson. If u know what to do when the tail is out, then cool if not then this is the hard part... When the tail is out u have to straighten up by turning into the skid and back again. Now take ur car back home and dont tell anyone about it!!!
It is easier in RWD cars as the power is coming from the back, so all u do is floor it as u begin the corner and all hell breaks loose.
PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS IN THE RAIN COS THEN U WILL HAVE A "CRASH" COURSE IN 180 AND 360 TURNS!!!

Pferdestärke · 5th June 2004, 21:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS IN THE RAIN COS THEN U WILL HAVE A "CRASH" COURSE IN 180 AND 360 TURNS!!!

Probably even Topple.. So dont try this at all

Just note it for the knowledge sake, coz it sure looks awesome and believe me feels tooo goood. But you wont be only hurting urself, but ur car (others, and their cars as well).

BTW, Rtech.. Superb Table (thanks) and SAM brilliant Diagram..

Quote:

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]
Another way is to apply hand brakes so that they lock the rear tyres and make them lose traction.

Yea thats the simplest way to learn (coz u dont have to go too fast, but can still end up hurting urself if you dont do it properly).

Even a Scandinavian Flick works, u'll get many results if you search google for scandinavian flick, this is the safest way to get the rear end out, but takes lot of practise..

Tom · 5th June 2004, 22:42

thanks for the !!! Sam. But have u left out one critical thing to do.. other than just lock the steering?

Sam · 6th June 2004, 03:58

No i dont think i have, u have to accelerate into the corner, if u want to aid it u can hand brake it... but that requires a lot of practice and co-ordiantion. Its all in the momentum that u have to play with.

sumitkalindi · 19th May 2006, 14:10

Oversteer:

Oversteer is a phenomenon that can occur in an automobile which is attempting to turn. The car is said to oversteer when the rear wheels do not track behind the front wheels but instead slide out toward the outside of the turn. Oversteer can throw the car into a spin.
Oversteer happens when the rear tires exceed the limits of their lateral traction during a cornering situation before the front tires do, thus causing the rear of the vehicle to head towards the outside of the corner. A more technical definition is that oversteer is the condition when the slip angle of the rear tires exceeds that of the front tires.
Rear wheel drive cars are generally more prone to oversteer, in particular when applying power in a tight corner. This occurs because the rear tires must handle both the lateral cornering force and engine torque.

Understeer:

Understeer is a term for a car handling condition during cornering in which the circular path of the vehicle's motion is of a markedly greater diameter than the circle indicated by the direction its wheels are pointed. The effect is opposite to that of the oversteer and in simpler words understeer is the condition in which the front tyres don't follow the trajectory the driver is trying to impose while taking the corner, instead following a more straight line trajectory.
This is also often referred to as pushing, plowing, or refusing to turn in. The car is referred to as being 'tight' because it is stable and far from wanting to spin.
Classically, understeer happens when the front tyres have a loss of traction during a cornering situation, thus causing the front-end of the vehicle to have less mechanical grip and become unable to follow the trajectory in the corner.

What to do:

To recover an understeering car, you must ease off the power and/or reduce the steering input until the front tyres regain sufficient grip to negotiate the corner.
It is harder to contain an oversteering car, particularly if you are inexperienced. You can apply "opposite lock" by turning "into" the skid (in the same direction the tail is moving - turn left to counter oversteer in a right-hand bend, and vice versa). Because you are effectively pointing the front wheels in the direction you want to go, this is a more natural reaction than it sounds, but many drivers do it too aggressively. If that happens, the car might start to oversteer in the opposite direction when the tyres bite, and you are likely to find yourself "fishtailing" down the road.
In a FWD car, more power might help to pull the car out of oversteer. In a RWD car, you must counteract the cause of the skid; more power will exacerbate power oversteer, but lifting off will cause a weight transfer to the front and further reduce grip at the rear. Only a highly skilled driver who knows exactly what he is doing in a RWD car should try to drive his way out of oversteer by keeping the power on; this involves the maintenance of a tricky dynamic balance between power, grip and opposite-lock steering.
If the worst happens and you should spin, for whatever reason, the quickest way to regain control is to apply the brakes as hard as you can and depress the clutch. Remember that a car is much more likely to spin out of control in damp, wet or icy conditions, but never forget that you could encounter an unexpected hazard - such a slippery diesel spillage, mud, sand, loose gravel or fallen leaves - on an apparently dry surface.
More than 90 per cent of all accidents involve a skid of some sort. Stay alert and you might have no need to worry about such things, but I maintain that it brings a huge safety benefit for all drivers to invest a couple of hours in some form of skid control training, just in case. No amount of theory will help you in a sudden emergency, when the natural human reaction is to panic and freeze. But with skid control tuition and practice in a safe environment, you can gain an instinctive understanding of how to stay out of trouble.

Happy Driving

Sources of this article:

The telegraph uk motoring.
www.pistonheads.com
http://www.dur.ac.uk
http://en.wikipedia.org/

2fast4u · 19th May 2006, 14:22

""The correct reaction to oversteer is to gently steer into the slide and take the power away as needed without pitching the car forward. ""

Instead of what u wrote above I steer to the opposite side of the slide thats if the rear was turning rightside inwards (happens when u r cornering sharp left) id steer to the right thereby maintaining a kind of drift which I am totally in control off, and yes the gas pedal remains the same and or decreases according to situation.

if i need my drift for some fun then i just put on more gas. good sight to see the rear car drivers reactions.hhhhhhooooooooooo

sumitkalindi · 19th May 2006, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fast4u

""The correct reaction to oversteer is to gently steer into the slide and take the power away as needed without pitching the car forward. ""

Instead of what u wrote above I steer to the opposite side of the slide thats if the rear was turning rightside inwards (happens when u r cornering sharp left) id steer to the right thereby maintaining a kind of drift which I am totally in control off, and yes the gas pedal remains the same and or decreases according to situation.

if i need my drift for some fun then i just put on more gas. good sight to see the rear car drivers reactions.hhhhhhooooooooooo

But this is intended to be a safe driving guide, for dummies, not for pros who know the limit of their cars and know how to hadle it.

BTW I still consider myself

rks · 19th May 2006, 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2fast4u

""The correct reaction to oversteer is to gently steer into the slide and take the power away as needed without pitching the car forward. ""

Instead of what u wrote above I steer to the opposite side of the slide thats if the rear was turning rightside inwards (happens when u r cornering sharp left) id steer to the right thereby maintaining a kind of drift which I am totally in control off, and yes the gas pedal remains the same and or decreases according to situation.

if i need my drift for some fun then i just put on more gas. good sight to see the rear car drivers reactions.hhhhhhooooooooooo

I think what he meant by "steer into the slide" is the standard "steer into the skid". Which is to say, if the vehicle is skidding to the right, steer right. Which is what you also seem to be saying. However, look at the following website, which I picked at random from a Google search:
<http://www.careerjournal.com/hrcenter/articles/20050706-parker.html>
This guy says:

'Skids. Most of us were taught to "steer into the skid," but that's true only for rear-wheel-drive cars. In a front-wheel-drive car, steering into the skid will send you in the wrong direction. Because it's difficult in an emergency to remember what kind of system you have, the solution is to look in the direction you want to go, and steer that way.'

Regards, rks

2fast4u · 19th May 2006, 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by rks

I think what he meant by "steer into the slide" is the standard "steer into the skid". Which is to say, if the vehicle is skidding to the right, steer right. Which is what you also seem to be saying. However, look at the following website, which I picked at random from a Google search:
<http://www.careerjournal.com/hrcenter/articles/20050706-parker.html>
This guy says:

'Skids. Most of us were taught to "steer into the skid," but that's true only for rear-wheel-drive cars. In a front-wheel-drive car, steering into the skid will send you in the wrong direction. Because it's difficult in an emergency to remember what kind of system you have, the solution is to look in the direction you want to go, and steer that way.'

Regards, rks

agree wth the above
i have a RWD so i am very well aware of the drift, moreover it has strut braces so the suspension diving is minimal.
ive driven FWD's like corolla, lancer but could not test them for this (Rent a Cars) u know the liability/ insurance premium ?? in an accident would be quite high.

Rtech · 19th May 2006, 18:07

Note: Threads merged .

harishF1 · 7th April 2010, 09:11

Most cars are designed to oversteer. This would help inexperienced drivers to find their way on the highways. If cars were designed to understeer, I am sure our highways would have become a death trap.

Rehaan · 7th April 2010, 13:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by harishF1

Most cars are designed to oversteer. This would help inexperienced drivers to find their way on the highways. If cars were designed to understeer, I am sure our highways would have become a death trap.

Quite the OPPOSITE harishF1!

Most cars (fwd) have a bit of understeer at the limit. This is much safer than oversteer.

Read the following two quotes:
(Click the arrows above theposts to be taken to the threads where they were posted)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harbir

....
3. front wheel drive cars are much safer for non skilled drivers because they default to safe steady understeer, which is intuitive for most people. If the car isn't turning enough (understeer), you just turn the steering wheel more. upto a point. And if you've completely lost grip, you'll just slide straight till you get grip or you hit something head on. This combined with higher traction capabilities, makes front wheel drive far superior to rwd for most people.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan

...
FWD cars are comparatively safer in behavior, (ie understeer that can be saved by taking off the gas or hitting the brakes, whereas oversteer can be much more dangerous and not as easily recoverable).
So keeping that in mind its just the safer (less liability) and cheaper (since you guys said so) way of making an automobile, so why would the manufacturers want it any other way?...

cya
R

nitrous · 8th April 2010, 01:13

On a related note, the thread starter is now a rally driver in the Indian National Rally Championship.

harishF1 · 8th April 2010, 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehaan

Quite the OPPOSITE harishF1!

Most cars (fwd) have a bit of understeer at the limit. This is much safer than oversteer.

Read the following two quotes:
(Click the arrows above theposts to be taken to the threads where they were posted)

cya
R

Typo error regretted... Meant understeer in place of oversteer and vice versa.

5th June 2004, 22:42	#19
Tom BHPian Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bangalore, India. Posts: 401 Thanked: 0 Times	thanks for the !!! Sam. But have u left out one critical thing to do.. other than just lock the steering?
	() Thanks

6th June 2004, 03:58	#20
Sam BHPian Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Mumbai Posts: 114 Thanked: 3 Times	No i dont think i have, u have to accelerate into the corner, if u want to aid it u can hand brake it... but that requires a lot of practice and co-ordiantion. Its all in the momentum that u have to play with.
	() Thanks

19th May 2006, 14:10	#21
sumitkalindi BHPian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Kolkata Posts: 376 Thanked: 17 Times View My Garage	Over and Under steer and how to tackle them. Oversteer: Oversteer is a phenomenon that can occur in an automobile which is attempting to turn. The car is said to oversteer when the rear wheels do not track behind the front wheels but instead slide out toward the outside of the turn. Oversteer can throw the car into a spin. Oversteer happens when the rear tires exceed the limits of their lateral traction during a cornering situation before the front tires do, thus causing the rear of the vehicle to head towards the outside of the corner. A more technical definition is that oversteer is the condition when the slip angle of the rear tires exceeds that of the front tires. Rear wheel drive cars are generally more prone to oversteer, in particular when applying power in a tight corner. This occurs because the rear tires must handle both the lateral cornering force and engine torque. Understeer: Understeer is a term for a car handling condition during cornering in which the circular path of the vehicle's motion is of a markedly greater diameter than the circle indicated by the direction its wheels are pointed. The effect is opposite to that of the oversteer and in simpler words understeer is the condition in which the front tyres don't follow the trajectory the driver is trying to impose while taking the corner, instead following a more straight line trajectory. This is also often referred to as pushing, plowing, or refusing to turn in. The car is referred to as being 'tight' because it is stable and far from wanting to spin. Classically, understeer happens when the front tyres have a loss of traction during a cornering situation, thus causing the front-end of the vehicle to have less mechanical grip and become unable to follow the trajectory in the corner. What to do: To recover an understeering car, you must ease off the power and/or reduce the steering input until the front tyres regain sufficient grip to negotiate the corner. It is harder to contain an oversteering car, particularly if you are inexperienced. You can apply "opposite lock" by turning "into" the skid (in the same direction the tail is moving - turn left to counter oversteer in a right-hand bend, and vice versa). Because you are effectively pointing the front wheels in the direction you want to go, this is a more natural reaction than it sounds, but many drivers do it too aggressively. If that happens, the car might start to oversteer in the opposite direction when the tyres bite, and you are likely to find yourself "fishtailing" down the road. In a FWD car, more power might help to pull the car out of oversteer. In a RWD car, you must counteract the cause of the skid; more power will exacerbate power oversteer, but lifting off will cause a weight transfer to the front and further reduce grip at the rear. Only a highly skilled driver who knows exactly what he is doing in a RWD car should try to drive his way out of oversteer by keeping the power on; this involves the maintenance of a tricky dynamic balance between power, grip and opposite-lock steering. If the worst happens and you should spin, for whatever reason, the quickest way to regain control is to apply the brakes as hard as you can and depress the clutch. Remember that a car is much more likely to spin out of control in damp, wet or icy conditions, but never forget that you could encounter an unexpected hazard - such a slippery diesel spillage, mud, sand, loose gravel or fallen leaves - on an apparently dry surface. More than 90 per cent of all accidents involve a skid of some sort. Stay alert and you might have no need to worry about such things, but I maintain that it brings a huge safety benefit for all drivers to invest a couple of hours in some form of skid control training, just in case. No amount of theory will help you in a sudden emergency, when the natural human reaction is to panic and freeze. But with skid control tuition and practice in a safe environment, you can gain an instinctive understanding of how to stay out of trouble. Happy Driving Sources of this article: The telegraph uk motoring. www.pistonheads.com http://www.dur.ac.uk http://en.wikipedia.org/ Last edited by sumitkalindi : 19th May 2006 at 14:27. Reason: Not Completed the whole thing.
	() Thanks

19th May 2006, 14:22	#22
2fast4u BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: pune / Bahrain Posts: 488 Thanked: 7 Times View My Garage	""The correct reaction to oversteer is to gently steer into the slide and take the power away as needed without pitching the car forward. "" Instead of what u wrote above I steer to the opposite side of the slide thats if the rear was turning rightside inwards (happens when u r cornering sharp left) id steer to the right thereby maintaining a kind of drift which I am totally in control off, and yes the gas pedal remains the same and or decreases according to situation. if i need my drift for some fun then i just put on more gas. good sight to see the rear car drivers reactions.hhhhhhooooooooooo
	() Thanks

19th May 2006, 18:07	#26
Rtech Team-BHP Support Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 5,770 Thanked: 359 Times View My Garage	Note: Threads merged .
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7th April 2010, 09:11	#27
harishF1 BHPian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Bangalore Posts: 72 Thanked: 22 Times	Most cars are designed to oversteer. This would help inexperienced drivers to find their way on the highways. If cars were designed to understeer, I am sure our highways would have become a death trap.
	() Thanks

8th April 2010, 01:13	#29
nitrous Senior - BHPian Join Date: May 2004 Location: UAE/Lon/Madras Posts: 6,965 Thanked: 325 Times View My Garage	On a related note, the thread starter is now a rally driver in the Indian National Rally Championship.
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