[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by vishaltanksale

Guys,
Any idea on resale value after conversion ?

depends on the buyer...if he is also thinking like you, he might think of it as an asset....else he might think that this vehicle has been used extensively...better option is to remove the kit before u sell it

[mj.hoodster]

Originally Posted by Samrat Banerjee

Hi mj.hoodster,
Good to see people noticing the value of gas based kits... either LPG or CNG. Have you driven the Vitara or the CRV?
Cheers.

i've driven my friend's vitara...and i think its quite fine for an automatic transmission car on cng...though it lacks a punchy acceleration of petrol but running a vitara for somewhere around 2 bucks/km is quite a bang.

[Surprise]

Thanks for all your feedbacks. Also I had sent a mail to Maruti to get their opinion on converting to LPG and below is the response I got from them

___________________

Please include the following line in all replies.Tracking number: HT20060720_0000000501Dear Sir,Thank you for visiting our website.We would like to inform you that we do not recommend fitment of LPG kit in your vehicle due to warranty and safety reasons. Regards,Maruti Customer CareAnytime Maruti (Call- 09811801515 or Toll Free-1800 1800 180)______________________________________________ ________

If its not safer, how come they sell their WAGON-R with factory installed LPG kits

[Samrat Banerjee]

Originally Posted by Surprise

Thanks for all your feedbacks. Also I had sent a mail to Maruti to get their opinion on converting to LPG and below is the response I got from them

___________________

Please include the following line in all replies.Tracking number: HT20060720_0000000501Dear Sir,Thank you for visiting our website.We would like to inform you that we do not recommend fitment of LPG kit in your vehicle due to warranty and safety reasons. Regards,Maruti Customer CareAnytime Maruti (Call- 09811801515 or Toll Free-1800 1800 180)______________________________________________ ________

If its not safer, how come they sell their WAGON-R with factory installed LPG kits

Surprise,
Auto Manufacturers would not take resposnibility for customers re-trofitting LPG in their cars, whereas when it is factory fitted they are providing "value for money" by responding to market demands and hence have no choice otherwise. Now while this sounds hypocritical, and that may well be the case, they would not stick their neck out; even though globally both LPG and CNG is being used extensively and are not only economical, but also eco-friendly and safe. So, well to each according to their own, LPG is safe, and so is CNG.. just try out which suits you. Just wait till the warranty period gets over.
Cheers.

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by Surprise

Thanks for all your feedbacks. Also I had sent a mail to Maruti to get their opinion on converting to LPG and below is the response I got from them

___________________

Please include the following line in all replies.Tracking number: HT20060720_0000000501Dear Sir,Thank you for visiting our website.We would like to inform you that we do not recommend fitment of LPG kit in your vehicle due to warranty and safety reasons. Regards,Maruti Customer CareAnytime Maruti (Call- 09811801515 or Toll Free-1800 1800 180)______________________________________________ ________

If its not safer, how come they sell their WAGON-R with factory installed LPG kits

they will give the same reply if u asked them if u can fit central locking or a new stereo or probably even footmats...all these guys want to rob you all by themselves...whatever mods they do is safe, but if the other guy does the same mod more efficiently, they will back off saying no warranty....

[veyron1]

Originally Posted by mj.hoodster

i've driven my friend's vitara...and i think its quite fine for an automatic transmission car on cng...though it lacks a punchy acceleration of petrol but running a vitara for somewhere around 2 bucks/km is quite a bang.

Forgive me, I don't mean to interrupt or nitpick, but I assume you meant the CR-V, since the Vitara comes only as a 5-speed manual.

As far as conversion kits go, a friend of mine has a Lovato in his 1998 Type II Carb'd Esteem Vx, and has been using it since the past couple of years. A few things that I've noticed.

A) He installed the kit at around 40,000 Km, odo read. The car's done about 90,000 or so now, and the engine has come up for overhaul. My friend is a very sedate driver. The lack of lubrication to engine internals is debatable, but it is a major factor nevertheless, that caused the pre-mature overhaul.

B) His running costs have reduced drastically, but at the expense of throttle response, acceleration, and top end. Again, there IS a trade off.

C) LPG is a cleaner fuel, and has higher calorific value than petrol, but it has less density. Hence, although the F.E might seem better at first glance, it is actually the opposite. If we convert LPG and petrol efficiency in a car to KMPL figures, we shall see that LPG actually gives LESSER output (in KMPL; convert LPG from KG to litres first, and THEN compare) than petrol.

D) Unless specific engines are used, that are tailor-made by the manufacturer (for example, engines that have low-friction or smooth sleeves, needle bearings that require less lubrication, high compression combustion chambers, advanced ignition timing, etc.) to run on LPG, the economic benefits in terms of running costs could well be negated by maintenance.

E) There's no doubt that LPG is a clean fuel. Why else would we use them in our homes? We don't see smoke or carbon deposits on our stoves now, do we? But, we have to keep in mind that, without limitations, ALL aftermarket modifications have SOME trade-offs. Without doubt. There's no such thing as a win-win situation.

Just my humble opinion.

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by veyron1

Forgive me, I don't mean to interrupt or nitpick, but I assume you meant the CR-V, since the Vitara comes only as a 5-speed manual.

As far as conversion kits go, a friend of mine has a Lovato in his 1998 Type II Carb'd Esteem Vx, and has been using it since the past couple of years. A few things that I've noticed.

A) He installed the kit at around 40,000 Km, odo read. The car's done about 90,000 or so now, and the engine has come up for overhaul. My friend is a very sedate driver. The lack of lubrication to engine internals is debatable, but it is a major factor nevertheless, that caused the pre-mature overhaul.

B) His running costs have reduced drastically, but at the expense of throttle response, acceleration, and top end. Again, there IS a trade off.

C) LPG is a cleaner fuel, and has higher calorific value than petrol, but it has less density. Hence, although the F.E might seem better at first glance, it is actually the opposite. If we convert LPG and petrol efficiency in a car to KMPL figures, we shall see that LPG actually gives LESSER output (in KMPL; convert LPG from KG to litres first, and THEN compare) than petrol.

D) Unless specific engines are used, that are tailor-made by the manufacturer (for example, engines that have low-friction or smooth sleeves, needle bearings that require less lubrication, high compression combustion chambers, advanced ignition timing, etc.) to run on LPG, the economic benefits in terms of running costs could well be negated by maintenance.

E) There's no doubt that LPG is a clean fuel. Why else would we use them in our homes? We don't see smoke or carbon deposits on our stoves now, do we? But, we have to keep in mind that, without limitations, ALL aftermarket modifications have SOME trade-offs. Without doubt. There's no such thing as a win-win situation.

Just my humble opinion.

A. I drive a 1998 Carb type II Esteem, which i fitted with a LPG kit at 33k kms. I have done 88k kms in my car so far in the 5 years that has gone by & so far i haven't had the need to overhaul my engine. i haven't had any mileage or power problems & my engine response is still pretty good for a car that has done 88 k kms.

B. It is a trade off

C. How is that ???? I get 9 kmpl in LPG whereas it is 10Kmpl in petrol. the cost of LPG per litre is Rs.24..the cost of 1 litre of petrol is Rs.52. in what way is it giving lesser output ??? I save more than Rs.20 for every 10 Kms i travel. for a person who drives 1000 kms a month, that is Rs.2000/- every month & Rs.24000/- a year. A nice amount to save to use for future maintenance of ur car. In the last 5 uears, i have spent around 15-20 Ks for maintanence in my car, apart from the regular oil changes etc...considering that a person fitting a car with LPG will use it only for 3 years, it is still a win win situation.

D. Can u enlighten me about the various mods that Maruthi has made on its Omni lpg & wagonR LPG??...as explained earlier, there is no abnormal amount of money spent on maintenance because of the LPG fitting, so there is no question of the economic running costs negating the maintenance cost.

E. This really sounds as if u are a maruthi guy...aren't u Mr ????

[veyron1]

@esteemlover:

A) Good for you, but I've noticed that the average esteem engine, driven properly, goes upto 130,000 Kms (or more, depending upon driving conditions and maintenance) without an overhaul. Most of the LPG'd esteems I've seen (very few, actually), have opened up before 100,000.

C) Remember that you're talking about kilometres per KG, not litre, when you talk about LPG. After a little help off the net, I've found this link. I'm sure you'll understand what I'm talking about, if you go through this;

http://www.fuelsaving.info/atomisation.htm#details

Mind, I'm not saying that LPG is inefficient. It's just that LPG would be far more efficient in tailor made powerplants.

D) I'm not aware of what changes Maruti has made at the blueprints for the powerplants of LPG variants. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure they haven't done much except for altering the ECM programming, injector/fuel pump wiring, ignition timing, and plumbing, at the assembly line/stage. But as you pointed out, LPG buyers intend to use these cars as high-running workhorses, and do not intend to keep them for long periods.

Maruti introduced those models because of consumer demand, not as a matter of choice.

E) Er, ahem, no.

What can I say; LPG is like alcohol. Doctors say small quantities are actually good for the body, but eventually, it harms the internals. People say- if you're gonna just live for so long, why not make the most of it? Same case for the engines. LPG is okay, but the fact of the matter is- it DOES harm the engine, if only by the slightest of margins.

All I can say is this; If one is looking for keeping the car for short-term, and running costs are number one on the priority list, then it's absolutely okay.

[mj.hoodster]

hey veyron, the vitara ma friens' driving is just vitara...the ol one. its an automatic wid optional 4wd.

and guys check this out.....i've driven my esteem 30000 kms on cng in last 4-5 months and if im saving 3-4 rs. per km then make some calculations and find out how long before i cover my car cost....sweet.

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[Mpower]

Originally Posted by veyron1

As far as conversion kits go, a friend of mine has a Lovato in his 1998 Type II Carb'd Esteem Vx, and has been using it since the past couple of years. A few things that I've noticed.

A) He installed the kit at around 40,000 Km, odo read. The car's done about 90,000 or so now, and the engine has come up for overhaul. My friend is a very sedate driver. The lack of lubrication to engine internals is debatable, but it is a major factor nevertheless, that caused the pre-petrol.

D) Unless specific engines are used, that are tailor-made by the manufacturer (for example, engines that have low-friction or smooth sleeves, needle bearings that require less lubrication, high compression combustion chambers, advanced ignition timing, etc.) to run on LPG, the economic benefits in terms of running costs could well be negated by maintenance.
Just my humble opinion.

Veyron
Was your friends esteem designed to run on unleaded and what exactly has worn out on the engine that has caused an overhaul.

In the pre-unleaded days, cars did't have hardened valve seats or inserts. This was because the lead lubed the valves.
But that changed after unleaded came in.

Pretty much everything else is taken care of by the engine oil.

[veyron1]

@Mpower: 98' Type I and II carb'ed esteems are EURO-I spec, if I remember correctly, and are factory-recommended for leaded petrol.

My friends' esteem had lost compression, worn conrod/crank bearings, play in thrust bearings/washers, tappets, piston rings, valve guides, etc. Just the usual causes necessitating an overhaul.

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by veyron1

@Mpower: 98' Type I and II carb'ed esteems are EURO-I spec, if I remember correctly, and are factory-recommended for leaded petrol.

My friends' esteem had lost compression, worn conrod/crank bearings, play in thrust bearings/washers, tappets, piston rings, valve guides, etc. Just the usual causes necessitating an overhaul.

I think ur memory has failed u there.....Absolutely wrong... 98 Esteem is factory recommended for unleaded fuel only. I dont think u should tinker the facts here...

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by veyron1

@esteemlover:

A) Good for you, but I've noticed that the average esteem engine, driven properly, goes upto 130,000 Kms (or more, depending upon driving conditions and maintenance) without an overhaul. Most of the LPG'd esteems I've seen (very few, actually), have opened up before 100,000.

C) [PHP]Remember that you're talking about kilometres per KG, not litre, when you talk about LPG. [/PHP]After a little help off the net, I've found this link. I'm sure you'll understand what I'm talking about, if you go through this;

http://www.fuelsaving.info/atomisation.htm#details

Mind, I'm not saying that LPG is inefficient. It's just that LPG would be far more efficient in tailor made powerplants.

D) I'm not aware of what changes Maruti has made at the blueprints for the powerplants of LPG variants. Nevertheless, I'm pretty sure they haven't done much except for altering the ECM programming, injector/fuel pump wiring, ignition timing, and plumbing, at the assembly line/stage. But as you pointed out, LPG buyers intend to use these cars as high-running workhorses, and do not intend to keep them for long periods.

Maruti introduced those models because of consumer demand, not as a matter of choice.

E) Er, ahem, no.

What can I say; LPG is like alcohol. Doctors say small quantities are actually good for the body, but eventually, it harms the internals. People say- if you're gonna just live for so long, why not make the most of it? Same case for the engines. LPG is okay, but the fact of the matter is- it DOES harm the engine, if only by the slightest of margins.

All I can say is this; If one is looking for keeping the car for short-term, and running costs are number one on the priority list, then it's absolutely okay.

@veyron1
the link u have provided discusses the energy content in petrol v lpg...like i said in my previous post, lpg returns 10% less mileage than petrol, that i presume is because of the energy content factor.

i was discussing lpg in terms of ltrs not kgs....lpg is available in bunks only on ltrs basis not kgs, kgs is for domestic lpg cylinders only......

again i feel there is no long/short term ill-effects of using LPG, at least i have not felt anything having used it in my car for a very very long time...

[veyron1]

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

I think ur memory has failed u there.....Absolutely wrong... 98 Esteem is factory recommended for unleaded fuel only. I dont think u should tinker the facts here...

My bad. I only remember it being EURO-I spec. Again, not tinkering with facts. Thanks for the correction.

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

i was discussing lpg in terms of ltrs not kgs....lpg is available in bunks only on ltrs basis not kgs, kgs is for domestic lpg cylinders only......

Well, most kits run on cylinders and not dedicated tanks (which is also illegal), and I assumed such. Yes, I am aware of the measuring quantities.
Regarding the fuel, perhaps you misread my earlier post.

Originally Posted by veyron1

LPG is a cleaner fuel, and has higher calorific value than petrol, but it has less density. Hence, although the F.E might seem better at first glance, it is actually the opposite. If we convert LPG and petrol efficiency in a car to KMPL figures, we shall see that LPG actually gives LESSER output (in KMPL; convert LPG from KG to litres first, and THEN compare) than petrol.

I was talking about fuel EFFICIENCY, not running costs. Hence my explanation. I NEVER said gasoline had cheaper running costs. I was only saying that technically speaking, an engine made to run on gasoline cannot reap the benefits of LPG, COMPLETELY.

But I guess maintenance costs/overhaul costs seem far too insignificant when the running costs are so tempting.

@mj.hoodster: Aah, ok. That makes a lot more sense. Is your friend's car the In-line 4-cyl. Vitara (Escudo)?

[esteem_lover]

Originally Posted by veyron1

My bad. I only remember it being EURO-I spec. Again, not tinkering with facts. Thanks for the correction.



Well, most kits run on cylinders and not dedicated tanks (which is also illegal), and I assumed such. Yes, I am aware of the measuring quantities.
Regarding the fuel, perhaps you misread my earlier post.

But I guess maintenance costs/overhaul costs seem far too insignificant when the running costs are so tempting.

@mj.hoodster: Aah, ok. That makes a lot more sense. Is your friend's car the In-line 4-cyl. Vitara (Escudo)?

point taken.........

but, did u say dedicated tanks are not legal ????