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Originally Posted by Rehaan Yes, he's talking about the rotational inertia of the engine.
Breaking it up, the brakes have to do two things when the clutch (and gears) are still engaged :
1) Reduce the forward inertia of the vehicle
2) (Possibly) Reduce the rotational inertia of the engine |
At last someone who shares my point of view!
Higher the engine RPM, higher would be the engine braking. So unless you are shifting down gears sequentially to keep the RPM fairly high (think powerband), while braking, while steering to avoid any obstacles, you would only be using very little engine braking till the RPM drops to a level where it becomes insignificant. Once the RPM reaches idle, the engine braking is negative, ie you are being pushed forward, not slowed down by the engine.
Answer this: on a non-ABS car, when do you feel it is easier to lock up your wheels while braking hard? When the clutch is depressed or when it is not?
If it is the former, does it not imply that the engine was using up some of the braking force to slow itself down? Sure it makes you feel "better" using engine braking as well, but at the end of the day, it is another mouth to feed. When we can learn not to stomp on the throttle and cause wheel-spin every time we start off, it isn't really that hard to control the brake pressure, even in an emergency; all you need is practise!
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Originally Posted by Jeroen What effectively happens is that the wheel is slowed down by the brake pads onto the rotor, more braking power is provided to the wheels, through the driveshaft from the engine (engine braking). It means the brakes can work a fraction less, hence less wear. |
True. Only if the engine was off to begin with.
If the wheels are not sliding (locked up or spinning faster, for a particular vehicle speed, there can be only one particular engine RPM (in the same gear of course). If the brakes are slowing down the wheels, they in turn have to slow down the moving engine parts. If you stomp on the brakes of a non-ABS car without pressing the clutch, it will stall when the wheels lock up (may restart if you ease off the brakes while the car is still moving)
Since the engine is following the speed of the wheels, it is wasting some braking for reducing RPM as well.
• Rev the engine with the transmission in neutral and hold just below redline for a second
• Release the throttle sharply
• Note the rate at which the RPM falls to idle
This will be the fastest rate at which the RPM can drop naturally on it's own. If it were in gear and the vehicle is moving, it will take a much longer time to drop to idle speed.
So, for any event requiring a greater rate of reduction in RPM (i.e. moderate to hard braking) the brakes need to dissipate not only the vehicle's speed, but also the engine's as well.
It might be easier to understand if you imagine trying to stop a rotating ceiling fan. You still need a certain amount of effort to stop it right? So some amount of braking force is wasted in countering the rotational inertia of the engine components, which could have helped in stopping the vehicle sooner.
Advantages of using engine braking: 1. Makes locking up wheels a bit harder - useful since most people would never have practised panic braking and would have no idea where the transition from maximum braking to wheel lock up occurs (which again varies depending on road surface, tyre characteristics, etc.) If you don't have ABS or were using older vehicles with less effective brakes and tyres, this may seem good, but in reality can increase stopping distance.
2. Finer control of vehicle speed - you don't need to use the brake to reduce speed slightly. E.g.: An automatic sedan doing 80 can take 600-800m to coast down to 40kmph. A manual can slow down much faster without touching the brake.
3. Lesser brake usage - going downhill in an automatic can be a bit scary since the car's speed continues to increase till you brake. But if you can select a lower gear, it is as safe as a manual
4. Driving on twisty roads - easier to modulate speed; you can drop a gear to slow down instead of having to brake for a corner
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...in order to get the maximum braking out of the engine you need to downshift more, thus more wear and tear on the clutch
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Agreed. Brake pads are cheaper than clutch plates.
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As a matter of interest, on planes they do use engine braking mostly to reduce brake wear and break component temperature. Most planes are perfectly capable of stopping with their brakes only (and most have pretty advanced ABS as well). But by deploying thrust reverser, the brakes need to work less. A lot of commercial planes have auto brake systems which provide for a specific setting a specific deceleration. (e.g. 4 m/s2). Even when deploying the thrust reverser the auto brake system keeps this deceleration to its chosen setting, it just uses the brakes less, thus less wear and tear.
Jeroen
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Engine braking on a road vehicle is completely different from thrust reversers on a jet plane. The key thing to note is that the throttle is closed and RPM drops in a car whereas in planes after touching down, the thrust direction is reversed and the turbine RPM increased for more "braking". The speed would continue to reduce till the plane stops, and then would move in reverse. Something that would never happen with regular brakes. Small parachutes coming out of the rear a fighter plane to slow it down after landing would have been a more comparable analogy.
Ships need to use their "reverse gear" to slow down as well, since they don't have brakes.
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Originally Posted by Jeroen once ABS kicks in you get as near as maximum braking power as you can get |
With practise you can out brake the ABS version in straight line on a clean surface. But in a plethora of varying real world conditions, ABS will outperform almost everyone. There is simply no way to manually vary brake line pressure between the 4 wheels.
ABS on motorcycles isn't as safe as people assume it to be, since it's easier and safer to turn the handle when you're not braking hard. In a car one can slide for a fraction of a second while turning without breaking a sweat, but on a leaned bike you are already pushing the limits of traction. Even moderate braking in that situation can lead to a low side. So if any of your friends ride like nothing can happen to them because "they have ABS," show them this video:
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Originally Posted by sudev Though I think here it was more about aqua planning due to highly worn out tyres cabies are notorious in using. |
I don't think wet patches on the roads can cause aquaplaning, it would require standing water. If you observe you'll notice the brake lights are lit and hear the cab's tyres screeching due to a lock up. He merely panicked, locked up and drifted to the left side which was drier. Aquaplaning doesn't require one to brake or accelerate hard. If you're going fast enough and hit a patch of standing water, you will aquaplane.
See this video; you can use the amount of water sprayed form the wheels to calculate the water depth:
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Originally Posted by im_srini My understanding was that with the whole 4-channel, 3-channel ABS thing, you've got individual wheel control. |
A car with ABS will slide in a situation in which the loss of traction is caused primarily by anything other than braking. For e.g. black ice, sand, sudden change in direction (think Scandinavian flick)
So, ABS does not mean you have the shortest possible stopping distance.
It does not mean you will never ever slide.
It does not mean you can drive fast in the rain.
It merely mean you can steer and brake hard at the same time.
On motorcycles, it just means you can save your soft compounds from sliding too much on bad roads, and that your friend riding your bike for the first time will not lock up the wheels and crash.
On a lighter note: The Veyron has ABS... on its handbrake! Still any doubt whether you need ABS?