8th July 2014, 21:13 | #46 | |
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8th July 2014, 22:21 | #47 |
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| Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing How about we organize city meets at an isolated road away from traffic then? We could try different braking techniques (pressing/not pressing clutch), ABS enabled vs disabled, braking with one side on the dirt, braking and swerving to avoid a balloon, etc, measure the stopping distance in each case and draw our conclusions from the results. |
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9th July 2014, 08:53 | #48 |
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| Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing @bravo : I would do so in Delhi NCR and know just the pace to do this at. Later in cooler weather. @MODS : if enough people come forward to organize this may be TBHP can start a topical thread "ABS Experience TEST Meets" |
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9th July 2014, 15:43 | #49 | ||
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Whether to steer away from trouble - with and without braking - or keep on in a straight line is an individual decision at the last moment. No amount of training can influence that. That decision is an instantaneous decision based on a. personal preference for swerving, or not (just like some people cannot ride amusement park rides) and b. perception of what is better in that situation - swerve or go straight. This decision making cannot be induced in training, nor will there be any memory. No matter how much one familiarizes oneself with the behaviour of the car on different road surfaces, one will not have time to consider that at the time of emergency braking. All one will do is to react to how the vehicle behaved and how to control the resultant instability. The difference is "calm mind" and "panic behaviour" - that would need a different kind of training. For example, if the car in front has skidded, if I have a calm mind generally, I will wait for that car's skid to be sufficiently large to actually to decide whether to swerve or not. In some cases, the car in front would have skidded out of my path so that I can continue, albeit cautiously. OTOH, if I am the panicking type, I would have most likely followed the other car, got into a skid myself, and banged into the other car, or the verge, or the shoulder. In such situations, there is only ONE type of braking - brake as hard as one can. If one has the habit of swerving, one will swerve even without ABS (resulting in the rear moving out in a skid). If there is ABS, one will still swerve despite the jarring vibration on the brake pedal. OTOH, if one prefers braking in a straight line, the swerving action won't come naturally. So how does one train for collision avoidance by swerving? This is independent of road conditions. | ||
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9th July 2014, 20:16 | #50 |
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| Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing Very educative threads. One query - Going through the videos and internet, i am of the understanding that we should have ABS on all four wheels. However, there are many popular models which provide ABS only on front wheels. How effective it is to have ABS only in front wheels? I think the purpose of allowing user to use steering is met, but is it as effective as having ABS on all four wheels? |
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9th July 2014, 21:04 | #51 | |||||
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| Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing
That's the sad part. We can be overtly optimistic sometimes and assume everything will turn out good. We are taught how to drive a car at highway speeds, but not how to make an emergency stop. Quote:
A combination of the above two reactions, however, can get you out of almost any tricky situation. In the tractor example above, you would first brake hard to reduce speed, check the left lane while braking, bleed off the brakes, change lanes. We are limited by our perception of where the combined limits of us and our vehicles lie. Only practise can help you figure out how much is too much. Quote:
Once you know the grip levels your vehicle offers on track (clean surface), you will learn that on any other surface it is always less than this, and you subconsciously won't overdo stuff (Imagine a SUV swerving too hard and rolling over). Quote:
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Whether it's a cow/dog/sheep/horse/tractor/lorry/pothole/child/bike you only have two options at your disposal to help avoid them: braking and swerving. Each of them on their own may not always be sufficient. ABS lets you do both at the same time. Once you learn it, you can use it forever. @BLR folk: Too much theory here. Who's game for a practical class? Edit: Could you please tell us which models they are? Last edited by bravo6 : 9th July 2014 at 21:08. | |||||
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10th July 2014, 06:27 | #52 |
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10th July 2014, 06:50 | #53 | ||||
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However, in a panic situation, a driver, whether skilled in advanced driving or not, WILL try to shove that B-pedal through the floor as well as steer away from the obstacle - it's natural instinct - and this is where ABS comes into use as an effective measure to prevent skids as well as improve stopping distances on most surfaces. Quote:
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10th July 2014, 08:32 | #54 |
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| Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing
Sorry for the confusion. With my limited knowledge I thought that ABS is applicable with disc brake only. However, following thread clarified my understanding http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ur-wheels.html |
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10th July 2014, 09:26 | #55 | ||
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It's the same on how for instance fire fighting crews or cockpit crews get trained. You run them through many different scenario's, many times, you provide them with a number of standardised responses. But in the real world they are likely to encounter a different scenario. Based on their training they will be able to deal with it more appropiately. Partly because their training ensures they won't panick, and partly because they will have been in similar situations before. The biggest problem with emergency stops is that none of us gets enough practice. Unless you practice anything on a regular basis its unlikely to really stick, at least when it comes to these sort of skills that need to kick in during an emergency. So my 'brake training" of many years ago has most likely no practical meaning at all, because it was a one off, many years ago. I'm not convinced that drivers will steer around an object at all. I am pretty convinced that nearly everybody will slam on the brakes though. The fact that some training might invite some people to take bigger risk is probably true. But apperently that sort of behaviour is equally true for when we started equipping cars with all sorts of active and passive safety features. Anything that makes us feel safer, is likely to us a (false) sense of invulnerability as well. Small analogy with general aviation: It has been proven, (FAA research) in general aviation that it is not experience that makes a safe pilot. A pilot that just passed his check ride and has accumulated say 45 hours has the same statistical chance of being in a fatal accident as a pilot that has logged, say 15.000 hours. What makes a safe pilot and reduces his/her statistical chance on accident is his/her approach to overall safety. Part of that is very specific training, but mind set is more important. Although I've never seen any research into the same for cars I believe it's probably the same. Jeroen | ||
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10th July 2014, 18:21 | #56 | ||||||
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| Re: ABS - Learning and experiencing Where? Which driving school? Do you realize no driving school in India teaches ANYONE where to be on the road, nor proper road behaviour, at any given time or any situation? It is only in other countries (are you not from India?) that one has to drive properly on the highways - with proper road behaviour - to be eligible for a license. Quote:
In developed countries, ALL systems are created for predictability, since predictability keeps everyone safe. In India we take pride in the unpredictability in India! Quote:
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Test drivers - who test cars with experimental components, sub-systems, systems, or software - are given special training (not general 'safe driving' training) because they have to drive on public roads. That special training is about HOW TO handle a failure situation - where something has failed in the car. Such failures are unexpected, so they are only trained how to handle a failure in the car - ANY Car, any time, *anywhere*, whether in the city or on the highway no matter whether it has ABS or XYZ or not. To start with, they are experienced drivers with proper driving training. They are given separate training to condition their minds to surprises, but that is not on the road. What one cannot do is create that element of surprise that can condition the brain. In self defense and hand-to-hand combat yes, but not at all in road driving. It is like NO amount of track training can teach you how to overtake a faster runner in a 100m race. If that element of surprise is missing in your training, you are just learning how to drive and control your vehicle. So who provides training with the surprise element? No one - it is quite an impossible task. | ||||||
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10th July 2014, 19:15 | #57 | |||||||
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Yes. Once they are aware of certain consequences, the element of surprise would be eliminated. Quote:
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It is. Will send you some links soon. | |||||||
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10th July 2014, 21:45 | #58 | |||||||||||
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One major difference between flying and driving though: whilst accelerating to take off speed, you'll never have another land vehicle trying to make it across the runway before you do! No other flight would try to beat you to the start of the runway either! You can get hit even when you are parked on the road side. Meant parents, uncles, aunties, friends, relatives, etc who offer to share their vast knowledge of driving, but are mum when it comes to braking. Quote:
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And you will have plenty of opportunities on our streets to keep your skills sharp. Whether it's avoiding a balloon, a kid, a jaywalker, a two wheeler, lorry, etc, you have the basic skills to avoid them all (laws of physics permitting of course). | |||||||||||
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10th July 2014, 22:26 | #59 | |||
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If you were running towards me and I tossed a balloon (or a coconut) at your face, you would not only stop dead in your track, but also duck to avoid being hit by the balloon. That's instinct. At the wheel, the same instinct takes over in the form of the brake pedal and the steering wheel - you try to stop and swerve, all at the same time. Hard-wiring that into a driver's brain is the easiest of all driving procedures. Looking at me to understand whether I will actually toss the coconut at you or I am just play-acting - that is the tougher part! | |||
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10th July 2014, 22:47 | #60 | |
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Or how about this very recent one: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28200666 Not an accident, but too close for comfort. And yes parked planes do get hit by other planes as well. My personal most scary experience: when I was on short final and somebody else was trying to land on the very same runway coming from the opposite side! Last edited by Jeroen : 10th July 2014 at 22:49. | |
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