[arunkk]

Originally Posted by saket77

At just 1 liter of oil, why didn't the oil pressure warning light came on? And how did the oil level went down? Not able to understand but why would a worn timing chain make the engine burn oil, if that was the case? Could have been the other way round that the oil level was low somehow and the engine's lubrication was compromised, which also led to timing chain wear? Could it be a possibility?

Edit: @OP: Did you check the oil level before the journey? Are you sure that there were no leaks from the engine oil sump and oil filter?

Yes that may be a possibility. I am right now cornered by fiat guys and not able to say anything much. One thing they told is timing chain pad has worn out causing oil pump to malfunction causing low oil flow inside the engine components. I didnt check the oil level as I was under the impression that these modern cars give indicator if level goes down.

Originally Posted by mayankk

When you said you'd come back later, why didn't you?
I think in this instance, fiat have a solid case of not paying out anything.
Although, i do have to question the longevity of a part which is, by norm, changed at 1l kms, and that too mostly proactively.

I was really going to go back after checking up with another workshop on the timing belt condition. My mistake that I decided to take it to a long drive before doing that. My question is exactly the same that even if its a timing belt issue, why did it go bad with just 57k on the odo. Is fiat engines so flimsy? Have you heard of timing chain going bad within 60k and spoiling the engine like this?

[DRIV3R]

Sorry to hear about the engine damage, but first things first, it always helps to be proactive.

My car's timing chain was changed before delivery to me, but yet again, I started observing minor symptoms of the timing chain wearing out at after 26k and went to a prominent level at 32k. I took the car to FASS and they first tried brushing it off, but me being me, went with Video proof. The timing chain was changed again and all's well now at 44k kms.

The tell-tale for the timing chain going bad is a tinny noise at cold starts for couple of seconds, please pay attention to that, all car owners who own the DDiS/MJD/QJD/TCDi etc. and get that attended ASAP.

Here is a small video that shows the distinct timing chain noise, you can observe it at the first crank but not at the second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frdCAcFppC8

People who have ignored the tell-tale signs for later have somehow sadly faced engine failure at some point of time. Please do not ignore any abnormalities. Does really help.

EDIT: Coming to your case, the oil level being low can very well be due to the valve timing being off spec, resulting in the engine consuming oil.

[sinhead]

Sad to hear about your experience.
Just sharing my experience with everyone - I have a hyundai accent. I wanted my timing belt changed at around 70K kms. At hyundai A.S.S. , I was offered a used "idler pulley" at lesser price, which they had taken off a newish car which was still in warranty. They had placed an old idler pulley in that car. So I agree with humyum regarding scams.

But, since I stayed with the car while the work was being done, they couldn't cheat me, thankfully.

Good luck, Hope the best for you and your car.

[GrammarNazi]

@Arun
sad for the unfortunate turn of events.

As a customer, you responsibly referred to the Owners Manual (provided at the time of sale) and decided not to go ahead with what the service advisor was telling (especially because the SA couldn't reproduce the 'sound' to you while servicing).

Hence you found it un-necessary to have the Timing Chain replaced immediately.

For the Punto 75hp MJD thats run just 56k kms, if I was you, even I'd be quite likely to take the same decision.

IMO if it was critical to get the Timing Chain replaced that its wouldn't last another 2000kms, couldn't the SA have judged that & raised an alarm?

OK, lets say he could not, or, it wasn't technically possible to judge, still, shouldn't he have been more persuasive that the OP be more prudent? That is what I'd expect from FIAT as a brand.

Its no NEWS that some FASS's have gained not-so-good reputation due to which customers don't fully trust the service advisor's competence (leave alone their opinions).

Honestly, even as consumers, to what extent are people expected to know things about engine sounds? And even if we do, I doubt we'd understand the gravity of the situation.

Even though the SA couldn't reproduce the Timing Chain sound, if he has managed to explicitly mention the same in the job card & also mentioned that the customer has ignored the advise, then its going to be tough to pursue this.

Pls do mail explaining the same and requesting help from Mangesh before you decide to start exploring legal options.

[DRIV3R]

Even my car had the 30k kms service midway when the timing chain noise was evident, no one from FASS was bothered about it. I had to raise an alarm after making a video at 32k kms!

In their defense, since the audible symptoms come only when engine is cold started, they would in all probability will never experience that use case.

If there was any abnormality reported, they can open the cover and check visually for the slack though.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by arunkk

Three weeks later, I was driving to Trivandrum from Bangalore for Pooja holidays with family. Starting from bangalore, the car showed no signs of any problem. I was able to take it to 120+ kmph. 40kms before Salem I started feeling reduced power from engine. It is not able to gain speed much. Still there are no indicators coming up in the console - no low oil, no engine heating. I thought of getting it checked in Salem fiat service as it is going to be night drive after that.

At 57400 kms at odo I drive it into Salem Truesai motors service centre. The service advisor there was a helpful person and quickly started checking for any problem. First thing that he noticed is engine oil level is very low (around 1.1 litres only) and it shouldnt happen to a car serviced only 3 weeks back. He topped up the engine oil and suggested me to get it checked again in trivandrum. After that he notices the most dangerous symptom. Smoke coming out of engine oil dipstick nozzle. He didnt recommend to drive it at this state and he needed more time to tell me what is the problem. I leave the car there and hire a taxi and continue my journey to Trivandrum.

After 2 days of Pooja holidays, I get a call from Salem service centre which has given me the biggest shock in recent times. That the engine is gone bad completely, there are scratches all over the crankshaft bearings. He is unsure of why this happened. For furthe analysis, the engine needs to be opened completely. He said the repair possible is an engine overhaul which will cost me possibly 1Lakh+ !!!!

A weak timing chain will not cause blowby (smoke from dipstick hole), worn out engine will. Lack of proper lubrication will wear out the engine. If your car's timing chain had failed you could not have driven it to Salem and the ASS couldn't have restarted the car. Did you hear the timing chain rattle when they restarted the car?

How did they check the crankshaft bearings without opening the engine, or did they check the big end bearing after removing the sump and end caps? Or did they mean camshaft bearings?

Originally Posted by arunkk

Yes that may be a possibility. I am right now cornered by fiat guys and not able to say anything much. One thing they told is timing chain pad has worn out causing oil pump to malfunction causing low oil flow inside the engine components. I didnt check the oil level as I was under the impression that these modern cars give indicator if level goes down.

Oil pump is direct driven by the crank, so i don't see how timing chain pad wear will cause oil pump to malfunction.

Originally Posted by arunkk

My questions to fiat india were simple
1) Why would a timing chain problem cause such serious engine damage?
2) All this damage was caused only during that 1500kms (in 2 weeks) which I ran after the service?
3) What reason will you tell me if I had brought my car for service only now at 57k kms which is still within 15k service interval and only 13 months from last service?

Because insufficient engine oil. [Unless your car drank/lost engine oil enroute. Did you notice any blue smoke/excessive smoke from the exhaust? Any oil in coolant bottle? Oil stains where you park your car?]

If my guess is right all this happened due to low oil level. You should have checked the oil level before you started your journey/soon after service. You can't trust A.S.S, a check from our end after each service or A.S.S visit is necessary.

Timing chain did not fail. It may have been weak, but it never failed till you handed over the car to Salem.

Don't go by Owners Manual always when deciding what needs to be done or not. Manufacturers release Technical Service Bulletins which over ride what is written in the manual. Double check if something is being insisted upon which is not specified in the manual, don't decline it.

[arunkk]

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

The tell-tale for the timing chain going bad is a tinny noise at cold starts for couple of seconds, please pay attention to that, all car owners who own the DDiS/MJD/QJD/TCDi etc. and get that attended ASAP.

Do you expect all diesel car owners to know so much of technical information about the engine while using it?

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

IMO if it was critical to get the Timing Chain replaced that its wouldn't last another 2000kms, couldn't the SA have judged that & raised an alarm?

OK, lets say he could not, or, it wasn't technically possible to judge, still, shouldn't he have been more persuasive that the OP be more prudent? That is what I'd expect from FIAT as a brand.

He was not persuasive enough or not convincing enough that this is a seroius issue. Otherwise anybody in his sane mind wouldnt have attempted a long drive without checking it out from another place.

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

Its no NEWS that some FASS's have gained not-so-good reputation due to which customers don't fully trust the service advisor's competence (leave alone their opinions).

Exactly, during my 45K service I was asked to change the clutch which I obliged. After paying 26K rupees as bill I checked over here in t-bhp and found the clutch replacement scam and I felt cheated. So just because of this I was extra cautious this time. Again I felt they were making up something to bring it to 25k+ bill.

Originally Posted by GrammarNazi

Pls do mail explaining the same and requesting help from Mangesh before you decide to start exploring legal options.

I added his id in cc during my last reply to them, but it bounced. I found his email id from another thread here but its not working now. Do you know his working mail id?

Originally Posted by Sankar

A weak timing chain will not cause blowby (smoke from dipstick hole), worn out engine will. Lack of proper lubrication will wear out the engine. If your car's timing chain had failed you could not have driven it to Salem and the ASS couldn't have restarted the car. Did you hear the timing chain rattle when they restarted the car?

No even the salem service guys also couldnt hear anything otherwise they would have reported the same to me. Only problem they saw there is the engine dipstick smoke.

Originally Posted by Sankar

How did they check the crankshaft bearings without opening the engine, or did they check the big end bearing after removing the sump and end caps? Or did they mean camshaft bearings?

They opened the engine from below by raising the car and found this. I have the photographs of worn out crankshaft bearings.

Originally Posted by Sankar

Because insufficient engine oil. [Unless your car drank/lost engine oil enroute. Did you notice any blue smoke/excessive smoke from the exhaust? Any oil in coolant bottle? Oil stains where you park your car?]

If my guess is right all this happened due to low oil level. You should have checked the oil level before you started your journey/soon after service. You can't trust A.S.S, a check from our end after each service or A.S.S visit is
necessary.

No external oil leakage is found even by salem service centre. I didnt notice the blue smoke, but may be I never checked for it. I expected low oil indicator to come if there is a engine oil level issue.

Originally Posted by Sankar

Don't go by Owners Manual always when deciding what needs to be done or not. Manufacturers release Technical Service Bulletins which over ride what is written in the manual. Double check if something is being insisted upon which is not specified in the manual, don't decline it.

Yes I learned it the hard way. But still I am not fully convinced that it is only due to this timing chain issue that I am getting this problem. Oil level going low and engine dipstick smoke are some issues which are hopefully not associated directly with timing chain issue.

[DRIV3R]

Originally Posted by arunkk

Do you expect all diesel car owners to know so much of technical information about the engine while using it?

Nope. But just trying to help. You know, these days, after sales is not your guardian angel, especially FASS.

Having a keen eye just saves you from larger misfortunes. And when some ASS gives me a red flag regarding a critical engine component, I would either get it attended immediately, given I trust them, or get a second opinion from elsewhere ASAP. I would not venture out on the highway for a long drive.

As the timing chain slack increases, it shears a bit of the timing chain pad and these contaminate the engine oil and may cause some damage.

And hey, if it was a hot engine, it is normal to have some blowby. The Ford TDCi 1.4's emit blowby almost all the time, search youtube for some footage.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by arunkk

Yes I learned it the hard way. But still I am not fully convinced that it is only due to this timing chain issue that I am getting this problem. Oil level going low and engine dipstick smoke are some issues which are hopefully not associated directly with timing chain issue.

Your car's timing chain didn't break the engine, most probably all of this was caused by low oil level. If only 1.1 litre was remaining in sump where did 2 litres go without leaving any trace? Was there an oil change during your previous visit to Vecto and did they top it up properly?

[humyum]

Okay, Let me guess how the events must have taken place.

Someone at the MASS forgot to put the right amount of engine oil. 1 liter of engine oil at high speeds won't be enough to lubricate the engine, blocks, cranks , bearings and timing chain at the same time.

Lots of heat generated, less of lubrication to timing chain, blocks, bearings, pistons etc etc. Engine is finished.

Now, I would assume the Turbo is gone too, so factor that in. Turbo can be finished in no time due to lack of lubrication.

And I agree a bit with DRIV3R, in India, you have to take the initiative and become technically savvy to keep a car, otherwise, the chances of landing in trouble are immense.

Stick to your guns about car coming from service and only 1 liter engine oil turning out from it later at the other service station. Most probably, the cause of all the failures is the lack of engine oil.

[Jeroen]

Some comments; you really should be able to trust the garage to carry out to proper repairs. Unfortunately you can't rely on them always. Not sure if it helps, but don't think this is an Indian phenomena only. It happens everywhere in the world.

I would always look for a garage that gives me a detailed explanation on what they have been doing, show me the parts they have been replacing and showing me the proper work instructions etc. The better garages in Europe and the USA will do so, without asking. They want to ensure you understand and feel confident what they are doing to/about your car.

Let me share an experience in the Netherlands, some years ago. I won't mention the car manufacturer, other then it was a German premium brand!

It was my dad's car and my dad is totally not interested in cars. He buys a car like he buys he loaf of bread. So he left the buying and the maintenance to me, as soon as I got my drivers license.

I just had a bad feeling about how the maintenance on his car got carried out. So, when his car was due for a big service, I got under the hood and marked and locktited each and every component that was supposed to be serviced. I took the car into the dealership to be serviced. In the evening I went back to pick it up and was presented with this huge bill, itemized in great detail. It was a huge amount and it showed next to the regular service a fair number of other jobs they had carried out, including replacing all sorts of parts.

So, I asked to see the MD, who so I was informed, was not available. I then told them that I had marked each and every part that needed replacing and or inspecting and I wanted the MD to be there to check the invoice with me, line by line. That got some serious attention to say the least and the MD was at the service reception within 60 seconds flat.

He told me that they would like to give my dad's car another inspection before handing it over to me. I said no, we are going to look at now and I'm going to look for every item on your bill if the marking and seals I've put on it have been touched.

Long story short, they would not hand over the car to me, they gave me a top of the range, free of charge loaner, to get home again. Free of charge for me to use unti they called me to pick up my dad's car!

What they did not know; my dad was a lawyer and had been engaged by their German HQ executive management to handle some legal stuff for them. So the next morning my dad and I called ze Germans. They listened very carefully, asked a few questions and then told us, they would get back to us in 15 minutes.

Sure enough 15 minutes later the phone rings. Ze Germands are very punctual! We were told that the local management had been sacked and that a brand new car was on its way from Germany and we could pick it up at our dealer a few days later and leave our current one behind. They were very apologetic about the whole situation.

Obviously, they were hugely embarrassed. It was very clear that the local dealer had not carried out the required maintenance to a very large degree. If at all.

Over the years, I have developed good relations with several garages/workshops in the places we lived, in the UK, the Netherlands, the USA etc. Here in Delhi it has taken me about a year to find a reliable workshop for my 1975 Royal Enfield bullet. The guy hardly speaks English, I hardly speak Hindu, but I take my driver, but it is stil very apparent that he is really passionate and knowledgeable about Bullets. I leave me Bullet with him with great confidence and pay his bills, which are always reasonable and explained in detail gladly.

But it takes a while and it does need some knowledge on your part as well. My experience is that the really good ones, will always take the time to explain in detail what they have found, how they have diagnosed, show you the parts they have replaced, invite you into their workshop etc. Its very simple I think, people that take their job serious are proud of their knowledge, their workmanship and their competence and they like to talk about it and "show it off". You don't need to be a real expert to distinguish such behavior against just BS-ing you.

Let me give you an example. When I bought my Jaguar XJR in the USA I looked at several workshops. I do most of the maintenance myself, but sometimes you need the support of a proper workshop. I got the name and recommendation of a workshop from a fellow member of the local Jaguar club. I phoned them asked a few question and they invited me to come around which I did. They showed me around their workshop, I got to see all their tools, talk to their technicians etc. They not only made an effort, but it was very obvious these guys were really proud on what they did, their knowledge, their competence, their (very elaborate) range of (testing) tools etc. So, in the end I took all of my cars to them whenever their was something I couldn't or wouldn't do myself. Great service, great workshop!

But it's a bit of sad world, when you find the ones that just want to BS you and expect you to pay these huge bills!

Jeroen

[arunkk]

Thanks guys for all your inputs.
I am just back from the FASS where they showed me the supposedly worn our timing pads.

I asked them to send me by mail an official explanation of how this issue can cause low engine oil levels & engine blowby.

They have quoted a rough estimate of 1.4Lakhs for doing the repair !

I want to continue my fight with FIAT. Even if all this was caused because of timing chain problem, fact remains the same that a critical engine component (timing chain) has failed before its recommended life. This is clearly a manufacturing defect and I would expect any decent company to own it up. It is very clear that this damage is not done only during the 1500kms run after the service. It has been an incremental damage which happened within the extended warranty period.

Also please let me know if you guys know any good workshops in Bangalore who can do the engine overhaul work. I just want to have a check with them regarding this car's condition and possible repair cost. Just a second opinion out of FIAT.

[DRIV3R]

Originally Posted by arunkk

I want to continue my fight with FIAT. Even if all this was caused because of timing chain problem, fact remains the same that a critical engine component (timing chain) has failed before its recommended life. This is clearly a manufacturing defect and I would expect any decent company to own it up. It is very clear that this damage is not done only during the 1500kms run after the service. It has been an incremental damage which happened within the extended warranty period.

Just to clarify, is your car under extended warranty yet? If so, that should cover this damage! Provided the services were done at FASS at appropriate schedules.

Only if FASS had recorded the timing chain warning to you somewhere on the job-card (under VOC), you may have some trouble getting it done under warranty, since you had chosen to wait and watch.

Also please let me know if you guys know any good workshops in Bangalore who can do the engine overhaul work. I just want to have a check with them regarding this car's condition and possible repair cost. Just a second opinion out of FIAT.

Pride cars, Bangalore has enough experience to work on Fiat cars. It is run by a gentleman called Harish.

[CliffHanger]

Originally Posted by arunkk

He quoted a price of 11.5k for doing this.

The service adviser misguided you.

Only Linea and Punto 90HP are supposed to have Timing belt changed at 60k mark, not the 75HP Punto.

The SA, having trained by Fiat and knowing very well about Fiat cars (just 2 of them), tried to cheat you by giving you a price quote for a part that is covered under warranty and asking you to replace that part.

You must sue Vecto Motors, or threaten suing them for trying to cheat you to replace something on your cost where ideally it should have been borne by the company.

THE ENTIRE BLAME IS ON FIAT.

You religiously followed what is given in the manual and your responsibility ends there.

The SA identifies a malfunctioning part that is going to cause serious problem - Not your fault.
He, ideally should have given you the details and the warranty information - Not your fault.
He, ideally should have scheduled an appointment for you to carry out the task - Not your fault.
He, being trained by Fiat and knowing very well about the just two Fiat cars, tried to cheat you to by quoting a price, where ideally should have said, "Sir, part costs this much, but will be replaced under warranty" - Not your fault. Hiding information is cheating too!

Having owned Fiat cars for the past 5 years, I very well know how those scumbags in Fiat service centers work.

Yes, the SAs smooth talk and throw in some freebies and also try to be extremely polite and courteous, but behind the scenes they are the same old scumbags.

It's high time Fiat stops projecting a False picture, they know the whole picture, but try to play it down, because they know being a underdog they cannot command the Service Center owners.

Fiat, listen, either do your business properly, or shut shop and leave, please don't think India is a gamble and let's just play a game with some money.

[arunkk]

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

Just to clarify, is your car under extended warranty yet? If so, that should cover this damage! Provided the services were done at FASS at appropriate schedules.

Only if FASS had recorded the timing chain warning to you somewhere on the job-card (under VOC), you may have some trouble getting it done under warranty, since you had chosen to wait and watch.

Extended warranty got over just a month back and thats why fiat is also not keen on this case. Yes they have added one line in the last invoice - Recommandation : Timing chain".

Also please find attached the pictures of the notorious timing chain as well as its pad. They showed me few scratches on the timing chain pad (seen in the pic). Can that be the root cause of all this damage?