[svsantosh]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

......And worst part of Honda is dealer said they don't get a new engine from the company, all parts needs to be assembled at Service center, this is ridiculous....

There are problems in selling a brandnew ready to be fit engine. Legal tangles - company-dealer-owner has to ensure the RC book carries the new engine # and a proper documentation of the scrapping of the old engine is done (mostly shipped back to the company).

Above all - how else will the AFM sales of Spare parts ever take place if for every seizure/block breakage (irrespective of the cause) a new engine is sold to the end customer.

So, in cases like this, the only "quick" way forward is a rebuild at the Service centers place under the watchful eyes of the company engineers. Output may/not be the same as factory fit, but no other way out.

(The ^ point made is a general approach to fix the issue, not who is at fault)

Related to this case - please post a detail download of the ECU log and for how long the warning to STOP the car was sent out to the driver. I strongly feel (due to the recurrence of such cases in TBhp and elsewhere) a case in point can be made in the H'nble Court of Law - "That, a blinking red light, a RED LED icon about 6MM height and 10MM in length sitting admist a already over whelming speedo console, without any other audible alerts or alarms, can hardly gain the drivers attention (to stop the automobile immediately), who, always, is preoccupied with the task of driving the car in the first place"

If a car wont start when a incorrect key (without the Chip) is used and the engine will be immobilized, why cant a car maker design the ECU to send the engine to Limp mode when critical parameters-from-sensors fail or go below threshhold values? We know the infamous skodas-in-limp mode stories, I am sure it wont cost a bomb to add a code to the altos and puntos and i10s ECM to limp the engine with the oil pressure fails!

[parimal_g]

Originally Posted by dhruvtanwar

On a related note, I have a close friend who's similar experience with his diesel Linea has resulted in the car being lying rusting at the dealer's since eons now. Slowly but steadily, that too is heading towards the Consumer Court. In the meantime, he's moved over to a trusty Hyundai Verna to "keep things moving" so to speak.

I wonder if the lack of visible "external damage" to the oil filter in the pics here prove that, at least from a legal standpoint, Honda is evidently lying through its teeth? And can't that be cause to sue for cheating or fraud or something?

Can you please share what exactly happened with your friends Linea, We can raise this issue as i know Fiat is known to be very helpful in such cases, if the case is genuine. Also if required we can escalate to the higher management.
We can even start a new thread to help him, am sure it will help.

Originally Posted by nikhilmadgavkar

If there was an oil leak in the first place it would have left oil marks especially at a place where the vehicle is parked,and will take quite some time to drain.

If the company is giving vague explanations and refusing to act upon it ,try filing a consumer complaint against Honda.

Hi Nikhil, No Evidance of Oil leak at his residential parking as well as office parking. If fact my friend was saying the office watchman immediately raises the flag if he finds oil leaking from any car in the premises.

Yes now that is the only option remaining.

Originally Posted by Recallers

First, send an E- Mail or letter [ preferably a lawyers notice ] to Honda Motors and to your Insurer informing them about the incident. If they fail to revert fruitfully then proceed to file a complaint in the District Consumer Redressal Forum. Procedures are easy but I recommend that you engage a lawyer. Gone are the days when consumer cases got delayed for years. This would hardly take a few months.

Expenses would include
Court Fees [ District Forum ]
1-5 Lakhs Claim Amount : 200 Rs
5-10 Lakhs Claim Amount : 400 Rs
10 Lakhs and Above : 500 Rs
If you are engaging a lawyer then his charges.

You can claim compensation for
a. Deficiency of service
b. Defective product
and other heads as deemed necessary.

Some dynamic sites
http://www.consumerrights.org.in/nat...r-helpline.htm


Cheers
Rohan Joseph

Hi Rohan,
Thanks a lot for detailed info. I called the National Consumer helpline No.
1800114000. The lady at call center asked some probing questions like
1> Name and address, date of Purchase, last date of service, cost of the car variant.
2> Then she asked have you checked the owners manual about is the damaged part is covered under warranty or not.
3> Next question was have you reported the problem to dealer and when.
4> Have you escalated the issue to the manufacturer and their reply again date for the same.


Now that executive advised me to write a letter to Honda and dealer about the indecent and post the same to the official postal address and if they don't revert then you can approach consumer court, but we need to update National consumer helpline they will guide us for the proper approach, really satisfied with the call and info got from this number.

http://www.nationalconsumerhelpline.in/Automobiles.aspx

I have even tried to know if we can get the engine repaired or replaced from out side and called Shetty motors, Opera House, i know them as i used to source my Palio's parts from them, he also said the Amaze Engine will be difficult to source but still if needed he can try.

[BopsKA12]

Was there any oil in the firstplace, i mean during the service was the oil replaced?? There would obviously be any signs of leakage at the parking spot if that crack in the casing is the cause.
Looks like the dealer and the insurance company are passing the buck and are running away from honouring their commitment.

[Recallers]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

Hi Rohan,
Thanks a lot for detailed info. I called the National Consumer helpline No.
1800114000. The lady at call center asked some probing questions like
1> Name and address, date of Purchase, last date of service, cost of the car variant.
2> Then she asked have you checked the owners manual about is the damaged part is covered under warranty or not.
3> Next question was have you reported the problem to dealer and when.
4> Have you escalated the issue to the manufacturer and their reply again date for the same.


Now that executive advised me to write a letter to Honda and dealer about the indecent and post the same to the official postal address and if they don't revert then you can approach consumer court, but we need to update National consumer helpline they will guide us for the proper approach, really satisfied with the call and info got from this number.

http://www.nationalconsumerhelpline.in/Automobiles.aspx

Glad that I could help. Do keep us updated!

Cheers

~Rohan

[dhruvtanwar]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

Can you please share what exactly happened with your friends Linea, We can raise this issue as i know Fiat is known to be very helpful in such cases, if the case is genuine. Also if required we can escalate to the higher management.
We can even start a new thread to help him, am sure it will help.

Shall get details and share them here in a couple of days; need to round up with him for accurate information (dates, times, present status, etc.).

[amit_mechengg]

One Quick question - Doesnt the Amaze come with an engine guard ?

[parimal_g]

Originally Posted by streetfighter

Sorry s, I'd also like to know the Insurance company name which can also be pressurised to take up the case. A consumer buys insurance to have a peace of mind, if that doesn't help when it is needed most, what is the use !?

Maybe another option is to take the car to another (supposedly better) Honda dealer in the vicinity and take a 2nd opinion. And I request all BHPians to publicise this on social media so that Honda notices and takes action.

Insurance is Honda Assure they have already rejected the claim.
Yes my friend have even asked other dealer in Mumbai from where he has purchased the car.

Originally Posted by amit_mechengg

One Quick question - Doesnt the Amaze come with an engine guard ?

No Amaze does not comes with an engine guard.

[amit_mechengg]

Originally Posted by parimal_g

No Amaze does not comes with an engine guard.

Shame, what does it take to implement a 500 rs sheet metal stamped engine guard on such a premium car. i had a similar debate for etios. It doesnt have an engine guard either.

[archat68]

As someone mentioned earlier you may consider taking help of Akosha.
http://www.akosha.com/

[jfxavier]

To me this summarises the whole scenario.
If there has not been any traces of oil below the car before, the leak might have happened during that journey.

If the car was driven by a licenced driver, insurance should take care of the expenses.
Human errors like not noticing the warning lamp should be covered by the insurance.

I think the matter will be resolved as soon as Honda is convinced that your friend will take them to the consumer protection forum.

Loss of lubricant is something that I dread and I carry a small LO can with me. Once I got the oil alarm and had to fill a different grade of oil to complete my journey as the same type of oil was not available at the nearby places.

[CowlFlap]

As pointed by others, this definitely looks like a manufacturing defect. No stone can cause a crack like that.
A couple of points to consider, technically.

1. For a crack that is running axially along the oil filter assembly, it could be a case of fatigue failure due to over-torquing the oil filter.

Here's what I experienced at a Honda service centre in Mumbai.I noticed dried oil stains under my car after an oil change, and brought it to the notice of the service adviser. I told him I'd like to see the underside when they're servicing it. Sure enough, the oil filter area was spanking clean; in comparison to the area surrounding it. Meaning, it had been wiped clean to mask any signs of leakage. It was clear that the person who installed/replaced the filter hadn't tightened it enough. The problem was solved, and I let it be.
Coming back to your friend's case, it's possible that the oil filter was over-tightened, which resulted in metal fatigue. While most load bearing parts of the engine crankcase are built to withstand operational loads, the sections on which accessories (like oil filters) are mounted are usually cast alloys - low cost, low weight. They do not like loads of the kind possible due to over-torquing being imposed on them. I do not know the internal structure of the area where the oil filter engages with the sump, so I cannot be totally sure about it. But I hope it gives you an angle to investigate and subsequently put across your case to Honda.

2. A crack of that nature will not usually leak oil unless under pressure or when the oil is hot - as during operation. It's therefore quite possible that the oil wouldn't leak when the car is stationery, but continue leaking when the car is operated, particularly for extended periods.

As mentioned by some members, the warning lights should have provided a low oil indication along with high temp. If they didn't, and you can prove the same, then there are more problems besides the crack - sensor failure, for instance.

Unfortunately, cars these days are built light and quick, but cheap and fragile. This ain't no stone bud! Go as far with this as you possibly can.

[CowlFlap]

Also, bear in mind that in matters where large amounts are concerned, such as in your friend's case, some damages are 'manufactured'. The last two photos indicate damages in addition to the crack next to the oil filter. If the engine had such large gaping holes in the crankcase, I seriously doubt you'd have gotten that far on the expressway.

Besides, the pics that indicate heavy oil leakage in the vicinity of the filter tell the whole story. At high oil pressures, the oil has probably been spraying out of that crack in a tiny jet spray. Notice also that the oil filter has a few aberrations next to the lip to where it attaches to the sump. This looks like a case of service abuse. The filter does not have an obvious hex point to tighten it. If they've used a monkey wrench or some such tool to tighten it, it's quite likely that the person tightening it has not only over-torqued it, but has also carelessly applied sideways loads; perpendicular to the axis.

Tolerances and clearances in these modern day vehicles are very small. They don't take abuse well, like the good old cars of yester-years.

[NiInJa]

That is very unfortunate. Till now I was least bothered about my wife's Honda Brio, but the day I have started following this thread, I have checked her car thrice for oil leaks !

Few questions: How reliable is the 'check engine/oil pressure low light' ? Is there a 100% guarantee that it will always glow when needed ? What if the crack was so severe and abrupt that the oil leaked in a matter of few minutes and the driver just couldn't notice it ?

Off topic (mods please remove if needed): I was in my school days when my dad's friend bought an Alto (the earliest batches), it turned out to be a lemon in just few months, with constant engine issues and all, the insurance people weren't responding as well (Helpline numbers/email follow up etc was not a common practice in 2000, especially for semi-educated people). So they had to bend the law: they took the car in the dark of the midnight and smashed it as if to look like an accident and after a few days he had a new alto (dont know about the legal/insurance matters that followed, I just remember it vaguely )

[parimal_g]

Originally Posted by svsantosh

There are problems in selling a brandnew ready to be fit engine. Legal tangles - company-dealer-owner has to ensure the RC book carries the new engine # and a proper documentation of the scrapping of the old engine is done (mostly shipped back to the company).

Above all - how else will the AFM sales of Spare parts ever take place if for every seizure/block breakage (irrespective of the cause) a new engine is sold to the end customer.

So, in cases like this, the only "quick" way forward is a rebuild at the Service centers place under the watchful eyes of the company engineers. Output may/not be the same as factory fit, but no other way out.

(The ^ point made is a general approach to fix the issue, not who is at fault)

Related to this case - please post a detail download of the ECU log and for how long the warning to STOP the car was sent out to the driver. I strongly feel (due to the recurrence of such cases in TBhp and elsewhere) a case in point can be made in the H'nble Court of Law - "That, a blinking red light, a RED LED icon about 6MM height and 10MM in length sitting admist a already over whelming speedo console, without any other audible alerts or alarms, can hardly gain the drivers attention (to stop the automobile immediately), who, always, is preoccupied with the task of driving the car in the first place"

If a car wont start when a incorrect key (without the Chip) is used and the engine will be immobilized, why cant a car maker design the ECU to send the engine to Limp mode when critical parameters-from-sensors fail or go below threshhold values? We know the infamous skodas-in-limp mode stories, I am sure it wont cost a bomb to add a code to the altos and puntos and i10s ECM to limp the engine with the oil pressure fails!

Hi Santosh,

In his case almost all the Engine's relevant parts they have asked to replace as even the Crank case is broken, connecting rods, pistons, so I asked them instead of getting almost all parts from company and assembling here makes no sense as it will be more costly as well. Even i discussed this issue with my Fiat Service adviser. He told me Fiat gives half engine and full Engine from factory, so why not Honda.

Fiat has provided many warnings, as one of my friend had a bad underbody hit and it damaged the oil Sump. The MID immediately flashed low oil pressure warning. Even my old Palio used to go into Limp mode, but then these are all electronics that can fail anytime. Surprising why Honda doesn't provide a Basic Engine guard if they know the location of oil filter is prone to hits.

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by NiInJa

Few questions: How reliable is the 'check engine/oil pressure low light' ? Is there a 100% guarantee that it will always glow when needed ? What if the crack was so severe and abrupt that the oil leaked in a matter of few minutes and the driver just couldn't notice it ?

The reason that dip sticks are provided (and I've told the story of how failure to use it cost me a car engine, and, effectively, the car, as it was far too old to be an economic repair) is that no, oil pressure warning does not tell you your oil level is dropping, it only tells you when the pressure has failed.

Reasons for low oil pressure may include the oil level being critically low or failure/blockage of the oil circulation system.

Reasons for oil loss include burning up oil by a failing part (mine, I think, was a big end, and its seizure was what finally "blew up" the engine) and other mechanical failures, eg piston rings, as well as actual leaks.

This is why (reminder to self!) we should use the dip stick regularly.

(To be honest, I'm not much of a mechanic: others here will be much more up-to-date and better informed on such things)