[Raikkonen]

A bit of technical info as follows:

The clutches and gearbox units in the DSG are operated hydraulically. This function is performed by the gearbox mechatronics module, housed in the DSG. Obviously you need lubrication for smooth functioning of these units, there is fluids in Mechantronics and in Gearbox.

The issue here is VW have been using synthetic oil in their DSG. The synthetic oil has sulphur constituents and can separate off during hot and humid conditions. Remember Chemistry and then "electrolysis". What happens after separation is that this sulphur settles between the conductor path of electronics in the form of conductive particles. Well the SMART computer/software in the DSG then thinks that there is a short circuit in the system and releases the clutch to open mode. This false open means that your gears are not engaged and therefore you get no drive. This is known to be the cause of the problem. The occurrence of this is increased in particular if the vehicle is subject to hot and humid climate, coupled with a high proportion of stop and go driving (perfect conditions in India, right).

It is complete nonsense for the dealers to say they are unaware of this problem. Every model in VW line from Skoda, Jetta, Golf, Polo, Amarok have all been recalled due to this issue.

One of the many things they have done is (a) to use mineral oil or change oils in DSG or (b) replace the whole DSG followed by a software update.

I am no expert in this, but see from your manual whether the fluid used is G-052-512-A2 (this is mineral oil) or G-052-171-A2 (synthetic oil). This video is what you guys are worried about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oKRLNjsoXg

[shyampsunder]

Sorry if this is a newbie question but wouldn't such issues be covered by the VW warranty? I was happily dreaming of owning a GT TSI and this thread happens :(

[rosaf]

Just spoke to my friend who picked up a Black Vento TDI DSG on the 4th of this month from Chinchwad for a whopping 13.8 Lacs on road!

After going through this thread i asked my friend so what instructions did the showroom guys give you? His(SE) reply was "Nothing sir , just drive any how you want, our engine doesn't even need the running in period , oil changes only after every 20,000k kms or just once a year,Congratulations sir". No mention of DSG care anywhere.

On hearing his my friend too happily drove to Kolhapur the same day and back next day at high speeds!

I was shocked to know this!

Is it true that VW engines do not need the running in thing ?

Mod Note : Team-BHP strongly discourages unsafe driving practices that put yourself and other road users at risk. Please do NOT post about illegally high speeds on public roads.

We advise you to read the Forum Rules before proceeding any further.

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by rosaf

Just spoke to my friend who picked up a Black Vento TDI DSG on the 4th of this month from Chinchwad for a whopping 13.8 Lacs on road!

After going through this thread i asked my friend so what instructions did the showroom guys give you? His(SE) reply was "Nothing sir , just drive any how you want, our engine doesn't even need the running in period , oil changes only after every 20,000k kms or just once a year,Congratulations sir". No mention of DSG care anywhere.

On hearing his my friend too happily drove to Kolhapur the same day and back next day at high speeds!

I was shocked to know this!

Is it true that VW engines do not need the running in thing ?

True that engines are much more robust nowadays. But it's always advisable to take it easy for the first few 1000kms.
When I took delivery of my gt tdi , those were the exact words my SE told me. " Sir, you can drive however you want, our Vento customers rocket themselves out of the dealership after taking delivery". I nodded. Then after a few seconds he said, "no need to worry sir, if anything happens at all your warranty will cover it". After he said that we smiled at each other while I said to myself, no thanks Mr wise guy, I'm taking this one slow and steady.

[ahmadnaik]

Apologies for the lengthy posts. I'm a writer actually and only mildly active on forums and therefore I often go into "story writing mode", so apologies for that again.

Originally Posted by vishal.jayakuma

Incredible. I was about to create a post regarding the same.
My friend booked a white Polo GT TSi last month. And with less than 1000 kms on the ODO, the inevitable happened. The same jerking problem kept happening. Unfortunately, it happened when his driver took the car out. When moving from a standstill at a signal, the car jumped in D mode and hit an unlucky commuter biker.
His father, using some pull, contacted the Audi GM, who wasted no time in directing the VW showroom to replace this car with a new one.
I mean, don't we all know about the gearbox issue? But <1000 kms? This has got to be a major safety concern now.

Note from Support - Please avoid quoting an entire lengthy post as it inconveniences our mobile users.

Lucky you. I'm past 40K now, so the odds of a replacement are genuinely slim. Still, keeping my fingers crossed. The "technical plant advisor" has got back to me now saying that they will take the car for a test drive, for the hundredth time I think, on Tuesday. Let's see how that pans out.

Originally Posted by rahulsharma2008

Guys,

I have been facing the same problem in my 3 month old Polo GT TSI. The car has clocked 5700 kms now and I have been facing the jerking issue since last 3k kms.

My car faces a strong jerk when accelerating gently in 2nd gear as if someone braked hard all of a sudden. The car loses power for about 2 seconds along with reduction in speed (as if 1st gear is engaged) and the power comes back to normal after that. All this happens while accelerating so really scares the shit out of me while overtaking.

Havent gone to the VW workshop yet since the above incident happens only once in a while (about twice or thrice in week, I drive her everyday) but really feel sorry for my purchase decision.

Any inputs how this can be addressed with the least possible wastage of time and energy?

The way the DSG gearbox works is simple. When in "D" mode, and there is a sharp jab on the accelerator pedal, the ECU detects the urgent need of power and downshifts, sometimes skipping as many as 3 gears. This will result in a "single" jerk, and that is normal and to be expected from most automatics. The issue I am referring to is a bit different from the hard acceleration one. My car stays within the same gear, and yet jerks a few times without downshifting. If what you are referring to is the same, then I guess you have the same problem as me. If it is the former issue, then don't worry, thats normal.

Originally Posted by 4nd3r50n

This is outright scary... I have a Feb 2014 GT TSI and at 23K kms right now.
@Ahmednaik, did this just happen out of the blue or were did you notice any minor niggles that could have acted as indicators to the current problem?
Calling up my SA in some time to discuss this.

This kind of happened out of the blue. Like I mentioned before, I have been driving this car for about 40K kms now, This issue started occurring post 30K. Until the 30K mark, this issue was absolutely non-existant. I loved the car until then, and honest to God still love it now. Despite this issue being extremely time consuming and nagging, the car itself is utterly brilliant in this price segment. The Honda City is more comfortable, with extra gizmos - but if your looking for driving pleasure, this is still one of the best, barring the Polo GT TSI that is.

Originally Posted by arjab

@Ahmednaik:
Suggest if VW service continues with its apathetic response, you may wish to bring some pressure on the manufacturer through the media in parallel to your T-Bhp postings.

I believe Autocar India has a helpline / help column through which they extend support to vehicle users facing genuine vehicle related issues; issues which have remained unsolved and creating much grief to the customer.
The latest issue of ACI (page 148) mentions the helpline email id as: helpline@autocarindia.com
You have to send your grievances in detail, with your contact nos, vehicle picture and and a picture of yourself.

Maybe you would like to give it a shot. No harm in exploring all avenues.

Sincerely hope the problem is solved at the earliest. Good luck!

I'll give it shot - anything to get the issue resolved. Still love the car and don't intend on selling it anytime soon. Thanks for the tip.

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

I have been running around telling people that these are issues of the past and the DQ200 boxes used in the polo and vento are perfectly alright encouraging them to buy these cars over their Jap rivals...guess I was completely wrong

Not really actually. Like I said - it's a matter of taste. I loved the Honda while I had it, and I love the Germans even more. If your looking for driving pleasure, then the Germans do tend to be a bit more spirited. Personal preference though - no offence intended.

Originally Posted by ashua

I agree. I was about to test drive the Vento TSI this week. Don't see the point in even considering the TSI with the DSG box after reading this recent thread. If they had a manual (TSI) I would still have considered it.

They do have a manual TSI in the Jetta if you can push your segment higher.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

Quite worrying to hear. Just as my the fear of the DSG issues was fading.

What exactly is the service center telling? That since they cannot see the issue, they cannot do anything about it?

The 2nd point mentioned (jerk when dropping to 2nd gear under hard braking), is a known thing and I think experienced by everyone.

Also, anything specific you can recall over the period the issues surfaced with respect to the driving pattern?

The second point was a thing that has plagued all the DSG 7-Speed boxes, and I knew about it before I purchased the car - so didn't mind that too much. But now I'm kind of apprehensive since my brothers been driving a friend's Polo GT TSI, and he says the 3 to 2 jerk doesn't occur in that at all. Also, there's almost no way VW is going to take responsibility for this issue, since admitting the gearbox is faulty since manufacturing will have to result in them recalling the cars they've already sold - and recalls on that scale are a slim possibility in India.

Originally Posted by vishwasvr

Hi ahmadnaik,

Please have your EGR valve checked. I faced the exact same issue in my (then) brand new 2010 VW Polo 1.2 TDI. I had no faith in Downtown VW's diagnostic capabilities.

I lived with that issue for more than 4 years until I opened my own workshop in Bangalore earlier this year and I was able to solve the problem because the EGR valve was blocked! I literally had to scrape the carbon deposit that accumulated for 4 years! I realized that each time the MIL came up they would simply erased/hid it using the software and I had no inkling it was because of the EGR. I scanned it using an OBDII scanner and solved the issue. It was a hell lot of work removing the EGR valve and that probably was one of the reasons why they chose to hide the error than fixing it. And I found out the part costs 40k! I fixed it for almost free of cost! :P

Hope this helps at least.

This is new - never heard of this before. Where can I get the EGR valve checked? Also, does it come under warranty as well, cause there's no way I'm shelling out that kind of money for a manufacturing defect.

Originally Posted by Rahul Rao

I have an Ecosport AT, I have noticed that if I am at 40-50 or so and only coasting ahead without applying power, and then If I suddenly apply power I get a 2-3 downshifts, which cause momentary loss of power, and a jerk.
Shifting from D to S before this encourages a down shift in advance, and avoids this multiple downshifts, and the jerk.

Rahul

Like I've mentioned above in my reply to rahulsharma - what you are describing is normal and not the same issue I'm referring to here. Don't worry about it too much.

Originally Posted by Jag4

As a fellow car enthusiast I understand what you are going through.
I think you should try and make a video of the said issue when it occurs.
I have gone to various sevice centres with different cars and never ever had one service advisor who genuinely listened to the issues with the cars, with the indifferent attitude that most people in Delhi have, it came as no surprise.

I was facing an issue with my cars bluetooth once, phones had stopped connecting to the system, I used another phone to make a video of the said issue and sent it to the service advisor at the time of giving the car for service, this way I didn't have to explain the issue to the advisor with him over and over again while he gave strange looks and pretended to understand what i was trying to say. Lets agree that most service advisors in this country or the ones that i have come across have no practical knowledge at all, they either use the manufacturer provided resources or some experienced seniors or leave it to the mechanics for hit and trial. These practices are common across all major manufacturers like Maruti and Hyundai.(or so i have seen)

However, mobile phones should only be used in safe environments please do not use your phones while driving and if you necessarily have to take your car to an empty car and them film the issue.
Hope this helps.

Haha. No the Bluetooth issue! I've had that issue since I bought the car, and i'm a bit into software development as well - so I know how software worked. I must've sent VW at least, and I swear I'm not exaggerating, 10-15 mails regarding this issue. They kept denying it, because it is an on/off thing as well. When it did happen in front of them, they said they'll look into it. I finally got the whole audio system replaced. It happened again. I got it replaced again. It happened a 3rd time. I got a 3rd replacement. Simple logic already proved to me after the 1st replacement that it was a manufacturing defect. The odds of one assembly line going bad and thus one batch of audio systems being faulty is logical. The odds of 3 consecutive replacements being off is impossible. Finally I gave up and found a workaround.

Put the key in the car, turn it to neutral - Do Not Start the engine. Turn your bluetooth on, try connecting and playing something. If it starts playing, your good to start the ignition. IF it does not, turn the car off, remove the key, wait for 10 seconds, and try the whole process again. Once it connects, it does not disconnect until you remove the key. So keep the key inside when taking a short break or refuelling.

I gave them all the points related to safety etc. since I was temporarily using an AUX input for connections, but without call receiving and track changes, the multi-function steering was not multi function anymore. I made at least 4 videos to show them also. And even got an official reply from a technical guy telling me that "VW only supports Nokia phones, since the bluetooth Nokia uses is different." Can you imagine that?! I mean I can understand a service advisor giving me crap like that, but TECHNICAL guy, who's supposed to have specialised in this stuff?

Originally Posted by vinj14

Ah that sucks man!! The problem you faced in quite well documented. Google 'DSG false neutrals' and you'll find a lot of info. Happens even on the 6 speed DSG gearbox. A fellow bhpain had this problem and got his mechatronic replaced
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...mbiente-5.html

I faced the issue around 5 times over two years in my laura dsg. Was too infrequent and difficult to replicate. So could not show the problem to the skoda technicians. Luckily it hasn't happened over the last two years.

Its a scary feeling when it happens at high speed. Could be really dangerous. Hopefully it never happens again for you. Or hope that it happens often enough so that you can show it to VW and get it repaired.

I've already posted the link to your thread when I last forwarded my complaint to the plant technical guy last week. And yes, it is certainly scary and terribly dangerous.

Originally Posted by Raikkonen

A bit of technical info as follows:

The clutches and gearbox units in the DSG are operated hydraulically. This function is performed by the gearbox mechatronics module, housed in the DSG. Obviously you need lubrication for smooth functioning of these units, there is fluids in Mechantronics and in Gearbox.

The issue here is VW have been using synthetic oil in their DSG. The synthetic oil has sulphur constituents and can separate off during hot and humid conditions. Remember Chemistry and then "electrolysis". What happens after separation is that this sulphur settles between the conductor path of electronics in the form of conductive particles. Well the SMART computer/software in the DSG then thinks that there is a short circuit in the system and releases the clutch to open mode. This false open means that your gears are not engaged and therefore you get no drive. This is known to be the cause of the problem. The occurrence of this is increased in particular if the vehicle is subject to hot and humid climate, coupled with a high proportion of stop and go driving (perfect conditions in India, right).

It is complete nonsense for the dealers to say they are unaware of this problem. Every model in VW line from Skoda, Jetta, Golf, Polo, Amarok have all been recalled due to this issue.

One of the many things they have done is (a) to use mineral oil or change oils in DSG or (b) replace the whole DSG followed by a software update.

I am no expert in this, but see from your manual whether the fluid used is G-052-512-A2 (this is mineral oil) or G-052-171-A2 (synthetic oil). This video is what you guys are worried about:

Precisely! Whats more shocking is that VW actually thinks it can get away with sub-standard quality cars in India and go scot free simply because the average Indian car buyer is not that quality conscious and the consumer courts take way too long to result in any practical change. It's sad that stuff like that happens - especially when you actually love the car way too much to let it go without a fight, hehe.

[kiran_cr]

Originally Posted by nakul0888

True that engines are much more robust nowadays. But it's always advisable to take it easy for the first few 1000kms.
When I took delivery of my gt tdi , those were the exact words my SE told me. " Sir, you can drive however you want, our Vento customers rocket themselves out of the dealership after taking delivery". I nodded. Then after a few seconds he said, "no need to worry sir, if anything happens at all your warranty will cover it". After he said that we smiled at each other while I said to myself, no thanks Mr wise guy, I'm taking this one slow and steady.

I took delivery of my Skoda Rapid elegance plus DSG on 2nd April from Tafe Access Bangalore. Even my SA told exactly the samething about engine run-in. The next day i drove to NILGIRIS as it was a long weekend. But i drove below 105kmph.

Seeing this thread now gives me jitters. The odo is at 1800kms now. I will be closely following this thread now and will also get the gearbox oil checked at 5000kms. Is there anyway to check the gearbox oil level without going to the service center??

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by kiran_cr

I took delivery of my Skoda Rapid elegance plus DSG on 2nd April from Tafe Access Bangalore. Even my SA told exactly the samething about engine run-in. The next day i drove to NILGIRIS as it was a long weekend. But i drove below 105kmph.

Seeing this thread now gives me jitters. The odo is at 1800kms now. I will be closely following this thread now and will also get the gearbox oil checked at 5000kms. Is there anyway to check the gearbox oil level without going to the service center??

Don't know about checking the dsg oil level indicator, but you can check the dsg oil temp using VCDS. That's about it, I did some checking around and it seems VW doesn't give a dipstick for checking oil level for DSG.
I guess the only way to know how much is there is when you actually change it then.

[StarScream]

With due respect to ahmadnaik for what is a genuine problem, let's please not jump the gun here. There are a lot of Polo/Vento TSI owners on this forum who haven't experienced such issues -other than the downshifting thing, which in my case has gone away to be replaced by an occasional clunking/thumping mechanical sound.

As others have pointed out, the fault may lie with an entirely different component. Let's please wait before pronouncing this a return of the dreaded DSG issue. If I remember correctly, the DSG issue left many stranded with an unresponsive gearbox - that hasn't happened here. Also, the Australia case mentioned here was not DSG-related. That was a manual Golf.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by ahmadnaik

Not really actually. Like I said - it's a matter of taste. I loved the Honda while I had it, and I love the Germans even more. If your looking for driving pleasure, then the Germans do tend to be a bit more spirited. Personal preference though - no offence intended.

Yes the germans do tend to make cars with more dynamic ability across a range of segments which is why I recommend these cars to enthusiasts however after having experienced the newer vehicles, I was under the impression that all such transmission reliability issues have been overcome which has led me to recommend these relatively cheap yet fun to drive cars like the Polo GT tsi, Rapid 1.5 DSG and Vento tsi to absolutely everyone I know in the market for a car in this segment. Not all of them will want to have to tackle such an issue if it cropped up makes me pretty nervous

[delta5]

Originally Posted by ahmadnaik

Against all odds, I trusted that Volkswagen must have sorted out the gearbox issues that plagued the DQ200 DSG Dry Dual Clutch boxes, but alas - it was not so
...
Again, I will repeat what I've said above. VW cars are brilliant, VW service (in India at least) is the utter opposite of that.

Hi Ahmadnaik,
I feel bad for what you are going through. A car losing power at a critical juncture is every driver's worst nightmare.

I own a 2013 Polo TSI GT, which has done 12500kms and been a dream to own. I have no major issues with the Car and none at all with respect to DSG. Yes, the D3 to D2 jerk was very prominent before, but since 2014 oil swap and some software fix, the jerk is much less. So much is the faith in the car that I have made the move to throw away the money I paid for extended warranty and get certain mods done on the car.

However, I would advise you to proof read your posts before publishing, especially when you start a thread where opinions could be polarised against a good product or make people question OP's credibility. I am raising this point, because nowhere in your OP, you have mentioned which VW product you own. Since you have mentioned MidnightBlue and first car in Mumbai in October 2013, I had to assume it is the Vento Tsi DSG you are talking about.

To other members, Please don't jump the gun and kill the DSG already. This is the first DSG case amongst the 1.2TSI engine, yes definitely one can't ignore it but there are thousands of other cars out there running without any issue. There are members thrashing the same machines on track days, doing the bumper to bumper office runs and have done similar mileage to OP. So have faith.

I sincerely hope that @ahmadnaik's issue is resolved to his best satisfaction by Volkswagen India.

Cheers,
D.

[ahmadnaik]

Originally Posted by delta5

Hi Ahmadnaik,

I feel bad for what you are going through. A car losing power at a critical juncture is every driver's worst nightmare.


D.

Like I mentioned above- I'm a little new to being an active member of Team BHP, so hopefully after a few more posts I should get familiar with the rules and nuances of posting and starting threads without errors. So, I apologise for not mentioning the Vento TSI - it is most certainly a gross oversight on my part.

Now about the opinionated post - I've mentioned quite clearly on multiple occasions in my posts that "I still love the car". I've also mentioned that despite this issue, I have acknowledged in my post that for the first 30,000 kms it was smooth as heaven. Unbeatable in fact, and most definitely the best in the segment.

My only qualm with VW is not with their cars, but rather with their lackadaisical attitude towards their customers. The quality of the vehicle is unmatched and despite my recent negative experience- I will probably continue to buy German cars (as long as I can afford them) as a personal preference. I have been co-operating with all their requests for the past 3 months- despite them never offering to pick up or drop the car when the issue continued to persist in the beginning. My brother has been spending loads of money on taxi trips to work when the car was not available, and yet I was willing to cooperate as long as I felt that VW was moving in a solution based direction. It is only after numerous failed attempts to explain my issue adequately and VW continuing to brush it off as though it's not serious have I resorted to Team BHP for this post. Perhaps it was a little strongly worded - but it was also an honest complain by a genuine VW customer.

P.S. - Thanks for the corrections though, really appreciate it.

[dark.knight]

I don't quite see why VW should be spared from blame on such issues? From the start they've had problems with the "DSG" boxes, be it complete failure or jerking/poor performance. We don't even know how many owners are there who haven't taken the DSG issues public so we can't assume the ratio of vehicles affected yet. This is far from so called "quality".

Worse yet as usual the service centre is playing its old tricks of keeping the vehicle in the garage promising results but coming up with zero explanations & repair. People pay the company specific, specialized mech personnel the additional premium for what? They might as well put their tongue out & say "Duhhh I dunno". I've also seen some real dunces in Hyundai service who wouldn't know a nut from a bolt but atleast the issues were small & I troubleshoot them myself.

From the start VW has been playing hide & seek with warranty terms, do they think the extended warranty rate/standard warranty included in ex-showroom price is additional profits? How about replacing the whole DSG free of cost if they don't "understand" what's wrong? This is purely a factory defect. To me there is no excuse for quality, if DSG doesn't have it then scrap it altogether. Perfection is internal components working seamlessly with external body shell, not just the shell.

[vishwasvr]

Originally Posted by ahmadnaik

This is new - never heard of this before. Where can I get the EGR valve checked? Also, does it come under warranty as well, cause there's no way I'm shelling out that kind of money for a manufacturing defect.

The EGR is located behind the engine in the Polo. I am not very sure if its the same with the Jetta. Please ask the service centre guys to check this. You'll have to speak to them again about the warranty (assuming the EGR valve needs to be replaced-Since I had the EGR valve cleaned, I am assuming it can be cleaned in your car as well)

[Motoringlover]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

I don't quite see why VW should be spared from blame on such issues? From the start they've had problems with the "DSG" boxes, be it complete failure or jerking/poor performance. We don't even know how many owners are there who haven't taken the DSG issues public so we can't assume the ratio of vehicles affected yet. This is far from so called "quality".

Could not have agreed more, i was seriously contemplating getting a DSG, my money is on hold now, i know it is not going to be impacting a billions of $ empire of VW, but i am not going to be sold a sub-standard or not well tested product. I am tired of the DSG issues i dont want to become another victim.

From the beginning this product has had issues, i am not an expert at mechnical know how but there can't be smoke without fire.

Disappointed VW, you treat your customers this way.

[ashua]

Originally Posted by ahmadnaik

They do have a manual TSI in the Jetta if you can push your segment higher.

Haven't heard good things about the Jetta TSI.

BTW, sorry if its mentioned in the thread and I missed it, but is the car still under warranty? There simply isn't an excuse for VW to treat you in this manner if it still is.