[Turbanator]

Could it be that the oil sat in the engine for 3+ years, deteriorated and probably broke down partially into sludge, and that sludge circulated all through the engine, blocking minute holes and gumming up the fine tolerances within the engine?

Very less chances as these cars will flash message besides whenever deliveries are made these cars are hooked to server which will check all such parameters . I have seen local dealer replacing Rotors on one of such cars before delivering to ensure there is no juddering while braking, so they should have done oil changes .

[VeyronSuperSprt]

Glimpses of Kerala's ecosystem:

Scene 1: A 6 year old drives a Ferrari and the proud owner-father takes a video of the drive and posts it on Youtube.

Scene 2: A 11 year old drives a ForRegn M 6 on city roads with no other occupant in the car.

Scene 3: A Porsce Panamera given as a present to a 12 year old as his toy.

Scene 4: A small textile shop owner in a one horse town gets designers from Paris to design his house and currently has 3 cars parked in front of it – A Lambo, a Ferrari and a Rolls Royce.

Scene 5: News about this dealer selling, on various occasions, a total of 33 old BMW’s as new:
http://www.newindianexpress.com/stat...cle2295098.ece

The above link is just one of several about this dealer who has been caught on several occasions for palming off a total of 33 BMW’s as new. There are serveral news paper reports, TV coverage, info on the web and even team bhp which give a complete coverage about this dealer and his dealings and would anyone be a sitting duck to buy a 640D from such a dealer and be the 34th such car without even doing a basic check ?

If you are ignorant of VIN etc, wouldn’t you get someone to do it for you especially as you are aware of resources such as team bhp and are now coming to team bhp in an attempt to close the stable door after the horse has bolted ?

Scene 6: 35th such car being sold.

Epilogue: This does not indicate subscribing to dealers palming off new cars as old or the other way around. But if someone is willing to be a sitting duck, there is no point even discussing the dealer or the customer.

Anyway the matter is already in the high court.

[GTO]

Guys, please note that the real issue is the engine failure and not the age of the car. It's the reason that I haven't included the age in the title. It is immaterial whether the owner was aware of the car being a 2011 build or not; the problem is the engine failure, and someone having to go through a problematic engine swap within 4,000 kms!

Originally Posted by sridhu

I don't know why people think that the dealer sold 'an old car as new'. The buyer may have thought it a good deal when he bought it.

Problem is the catastrophic engine failure & subsequent customer relationship management.

Originally Posted by fine69

While a manufacturer might replace the car but nowhere in the purchase terms & conditions it says that they MUST replace the car in case of specific failures.

The terms & conditions mean nothing in court. And no manufacturer will write about replacing a car in ANY condition (they'd be fools to do so).

Many of us have gotten our faulty cars replaced by the manufacturer. If I were the owner of this 640d, I would relentlessly fight tooth & nail until I got a replacement. There is no way I'm going to live with a car that had such a serious manufacturing defect after cutting an 8 figure cheque for it.

Question to GTO if you don't mind sharing the details - Did the customer reach out to you or you found this information & shared it for awareness or other purpose?

The customer reached out to me.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

We don't know if th owner made some performance mods on the car

I have seen all the communication between him & BMW. AFAIK, there is no unauthorised modification on his car.

[landcruiser123]

As from a Customer POV, he completely deserves a brand new car immediately which is manufactured in July'15 and imported.

But seeing from a third person's view, I've to say that a car is a depreciating asset, a car that doesn't move is a reckless investment. A basic check like decoding VIN would have gone a long way. He could have rejected the car seeing it's age.

I think it's time we consumers are protected from unfair trade practices of Dealers and manufacturers by stronger consumer law. Also, there must be laws for dealers against keeping cars that are more than 3 months old.

[rockporiom]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

As from a Customer POV, he completely deserves a brand new car immediately which is manufactured in July'15 and imported.

But seeing from a third person's view, I've to say that a car is a depreciating asset, a car that doesn't move is a reckless investment. A basic check like decoding VIN would have gone a long way. He could have rejected the car seeing it's age.

I think it's time we consumers are protected from unfair trade practices of Dealers and manufacturers by stronger consumer law. Also, there must be laws for dealers against keeping cars that are more than 3 months old.

The car being old isn't the problem here but the fact that the engine seized in just 4000 kms. If the car had been standing in the stockyard it would be mostly the tires, fluids, belts or the battery that would require to be changed since the fluids would go bad and the rubber parts would go hard. I believe a simple inspection and service by a trained technician would have been enough to decide whether the car is worth buying.

Seeing that the engine seized due to lack of lubrication it is highly possible that there was a manufacturing defect in the car in the first place. It is also surprising that there was no mention of any symptoms of engine failure like white/ blue smoke, loss in power or vibrations. The fishy part is that why did the dealer dismantle the engine without taking prior permission of the owner. I believe they knew they messed up or overlooked something in the PDI which caused the engine to fail. Fearing action from BMW or the owner of the car they might have quickly dismantled the engine and applied for warranty claim to BMW to destroy any evidence that they might have damaged the engine. Also, this dealer has a bad reputation for selling old cars as new. What i don't understand is why does BMW not cancel the dealership of such dealers

Also passing such a rule where cars that are more than 3 monts old cannot be sold is not sensible. Even manufacturers like MSIL have stock that are at least 1-2 months old. The dealers of other manufacturers that don't sell high numbers would never stock up at all which would shoot up the waiting periods and cause great loss to the manufacturing company.

Also, this is not the first case where a car that is so old is being sold. Other manufacturers that have models that have tanked in the past have also sold 1-2-3 year old cars on heavy discount.

Regarding the discount given by the dealer i feel that the owner did not know that the car was three years old as the discount given doesn't look too big for the 640d. As discussed earlier in this thread the 5 series which is almost half the price of the 640d sells at a discount of about 10 lakhs.

BMW should either refund the customer or replace the car whichever they find feasible. In the meantime they should compensate the owner for the number of days the car is out of service something like what VW does.

As rightly said by GTO if BMW doesn't replace the car the owner should fight tooth and nail to get his car replaced or get his money back from BMW.

[fine69]

Originally Posted by GTO

Many of us have gotten our faulty cars replaced by the manufacturer. If I were the owner of this 640d, I would relentlessly fight tooth & nail until I got a replacement. There is no way I'm going to live with a car that had such a serious manufacturing defect after cutting an 8 figure cheque for it.

My point is, its a machine after all and its not that Rolls Royce or Bentleys don't break down (or 'fail to proceed' as they say ). And its not just about expensive cars. A Nano owner would be as furious as a BMW owner if their car fails at any point in time.

I understand that the engine failed but what is the problem if its replaced and everything is back to normal? Let me answer, the problem is that issues started cropping up even after the engine was replaced. We all know that the problem could very well be in the installation process.

I mean please throw more light on what is the engine replacement policy of the said manufacturer. Can the engines be replaced at the dealer as per the manufacturer? Does the dealer have the necessary competency and equipment to do so as per the manufacturer?

The installation "process" of the engine at the dealer cannot match the factory environment for any manufacturer, not just BMW. The end result matters in such cases which is where it failed in this particular case.

If the engine replacement would've gone smoothly this thread in most likelihood wouldn't have existed. So again, what are the manufacturer's policies/guidelines about engine replacement is what, at least I'm, interested in.

[Hayek]

I think we are overreacting here. I don't think this is a case of a dealer palming off a 2011 car as a 2014 one- if so, the customer would have raised a hue and cry at delivery. Yes, an engine failure is lamentable. From the wording of the dealer's letter, and the claim that it's a Goodwill replacement, it suggests that the dealer is implying that the customer was at fault - eg for driving without oil or post an oil warning. Else, the car would be covered by normal warranty and BSI. If the customer is even partly at fault, replacing the engine for free and giving free BSI is adequate. If the customer was not at fault, he should be able to push hard for more - at least a factory fitted engine replacement at BMW Chennai, though a replacement for someone who knowingly bought a 3+ year old car does seem unlikely.

[DirtyDan]

Originally Posted by Ponkermania

Could it be that the oil sat in the engine for 3+ years, deteriorated and probably broke down partially into sludge, and that sludge circulated all through the engine, blocking minute holes and gumming up the fine tolerances within the engine?

Did it sit for 3 years because it was already known to be troublesome or was it troublesome because it sat for 3 years. I doubt we will ever get the full true story on this entire little melodrama.

I have only personal experience with BMW motorcycles, though I have driven a few of their cars. They are absolutely superb motorcycles as is their sales and service, outside India at least. Interestingly enough, it was the BMW motorcycle division that first invented and marketed ABS on their cycles in the early 1980s....no lie. (Someone will contradict me, no doubt)

High end cars with low slung ground effects and deeply rutted Indian roads are not a good mix. I'd be afraid to own one in India unless I had money to burn...
at least this one is practical. It is white and taxi ready.

[stanjohn123]

When are BMW India going to learn Customer retention techniques ?

It would have been much cheaper if they just replaced the car with a new one. The customer will be happy and probably stick with the same brand in future and BMW too would not have their image tarnished in a public forum and also save some cash by not trying to fix a crappy old car.

Most of us would not keep a German car with us for more than 5 years for obvious reasons. This one is already 3 or 4 years old just sitting idle , so the most prudent thing BMW should have done is just replace the car and try to retain their loyal customer for spending top bucks on them.

[Carpainter]

I really feel sad for the owner. He may be at fault for not looking deep enough while buying an asset (I suppose) but the great agony that he's going through is totally unacceptable. What I want to see at the end of this case, apart from whatever compensation the owner is gonna get from BMW, is what action the company is going to take against the notorious dealership. They are not only taking BMW's goodwill for a ride, the sale figure might reflect the same as well. Specially when the heat from Audi and Merc is around the corner. Not that they are any better in these circumstances.

One fault I see from the owner is that he probably didn't take a look at VIN no. and was too happy to take a 18L discount. I think this is what most of the Indian car buyers are not aware of. Here people do everything from searching at municipality to searching at sadhu babas before getting a house or a plot of land. But while buying cars, be it a first time Alto buyer to a more premium segment buyer or even luxury car buyer, people trust the dealers blindly which helps the dealers in these situations. Forget VIN, how many regular buyers actually know howmuch bhp their cars have or howmuch torque their cars produce. All they know is whether their car has a USB or i-pod connectivity or not. I think mass market buyers should gather more info before buying so that they don't have to get disappointed after the purchase.

[Kumar R]

Gosh what a story. It seems an equal proportion of cars at all segments turn out to be defective.

I am surprised BMW, in its own interest, did nothing even though their VIN system could and would have tracked a three year old vehicle lying unsold at a dealership. I mean...shouldn't a quality / brand conscious firm keep a tab of its entire old inventory in an unscrupulous market like India. Surely some manager somewhere in BMW India should be getting a monthly or quarterly report displaying status of all old (read >1 year old) cars that are yet to find a buyer.

Given the weather and storage conditions in India, I suppose it is possible that some impurity entered the engine, perhaps an insect or a rat caused the problem (we may never know) but that is why older vehicles should be monitored. The sad thing is that this is perhaps practical only in the case of super-high end vehicles like this. For Maruti it may be physically impossible to do so. But that's the flip side of charging 10-15x for a vehicle that may have quality wise only 4-5x features (comparing with a Rs 12 lakh vehicle).

On the transactional side, I am surprised the customer agreed to such a small discount assuming (fairly - based on the sale certificate) that he knew the vehicle was three years old.

[scopriobharath]

One point being overlooked here is that whether the owner or BMW double checked, if the oil, fluids and other consumables were changed before delivery ? If yes, Platino should have entered it against the vehicle servicing history.

Even if someone is buying a 3 year old car, i dont think he is expected to have technical knowledge and someone who can afford 1.25 crores might not get his shoes dirty by doing PDI Et all.

The dealership and BMW know very well, that all oils and fluids and should be changed. If this was done, the problem was with the engine, else, the fluids and oils losing thier chemical properties over a period of time, is the culprit.

[amit_shimla]

How is this BMW better than my 2005 Alto which is still running trouble free after cloaking 150000 Kms? I thought a vehicle manufacturer of this stature would guarantee a lifelong customer satisfaction and great driving pleasure.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

As from a Customer POV, he completely deserves a brand new car immediately which is manufactured in July'15 and imported.

But seeing from a third person's view, I've to say that a car is a depreciating asset, a car that doesn't move is a reckless investment. A basic check like decoding VIN would have gone a long way. He could have rejected the car seeing it's age.

I think it's time we consumers are protected from unfair trade practices of Dealers and manufacturers by stronger consumer law. Also, there must be laws for dealers against keeping cars that are more than 3 months old.

Why should he get a brand new car? He willingly purchased a 3 year old car, knowing it was 2011 make on the R/C book, happily took the 18 lac discount (which is too low for such a old car), and unfortunately suffered an engine failure. From what I gathered, BMW has not refused to acknowledge the failure, has shipped a brand new engine in good faith, yes the monkeys at the workshop messed up the installation. Some people here claim that engines should be reinstalled/changed in the factory, which IMO is silly, because world over authorized workshops do everything from engine to chassis swaps, not that the BMW engine belongs to some 5th generation fighter plane!!!
As far as the alleged shoddy installation, we have nothing but the customers word for it, the same customer, who allegedly didn't bother to go through a examination of the car before buying, maybe didn't change the fluids and tyres also.
I am not trying to defend either the workshop or BMW here, but lets not jump to conclusion about who is right and who is wrong, especially when there is very little proof, lot of allegations and temper flying about.

If the engine installation is not done right, BMW needs to get it fixed ASAP. However demanding a new car, is frankly ridiculous.

You are right about cars having depreciating value, however no law can ask a dealer to keep a car of a certain age. If so, who will take back old cars? As far as I know dealers need to buy cars from the maker, so he is left holding the baby so to speak, if it doesn't sell. As long as the dealer is honest and doesn't fob off an old model as a new one, there is no law broken.

[sudev]

All this discussion without input from actual owners is giving rise to conjecture and assumptions about vehicle, purchase process, usage during first 4k kilometers and what the current problem is. Either this input is sought and thread updated or thread be closed.