[Stratos]

Dont wanna bring any specific car in this topic... but love that oversteer and opposite lock after that!!!

[SLK]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Shan2nu @ Oct. 22 2004,12:16)]In over or under steer, you will always have either the front or the rear of the car, still holding it's line, but in case of neutral steer, since both sides of the car lose traction at the same time, you will have absolutely no control over the car. Whole car would just slide off the road.

This isn't fair,
See if you assume that both front and rear tyres would slide in a neutral handling car. You have to assume the same in over/understeer, just that in neutral the sliding angle of both would be same and in other 2 cases it would be different.

So you are bound to lose traction in understeer/oversteer before neutral.

you are right all cars are tuned for neutral handling, its only on the limits when they show the their characteristics. But here we are talking about a car that will be neutral even on the limits, that would mean no skidding/sliding (rather than all 4 wheels losing traction in the same angle).

bottom line... ultimate neutral handling can not exist unless one plans to put Reva's engine in TATA sumo.

[Shan2nu]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]See if you assume that both front and rear tyres would slide in a neutral handling car. You have to assume the same in over/understeer, just that in neutral the sliding angle of both would be same and in other 2 cases it would be different.

They do slide in any case. But in OS and US, since the front or the rear starts sliding first, you always have time to reduce your speed, use opposite lock or do what ever it takes, before the other side starts losing grip.

But, you will have to be an expert to be able to control a car whose front and rear wheels start sliding at the same time?

2ndly, neutral steer doesnot necessarily mean "no skidding or sliding". It just means that the slip angle of both the front and rear wheels are the same. When they grip they grip and when they slip..........you better not be driving that car.

TCS is probably the closest you can get to a neutrally handling car. But what the TCS is actually doing is, that it's controlling the throttle by diverting power from a wheel with less traction, to the others with more traction.

Neutral handling is in other words, a compromised way of going around a corner.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]bottom line... ultimate neutral handling can not exist unless one plans to put Reva's engine in TATA sumo.

Tata sumo with Reva engine? That's quite a compromise, don't you think. Hehe

But, i've seen people using broader front tyres on FWDs to make it handle more neutrally. thought it'l never be perfectly neutral, near neutral steer is what everybody would love to have.

Shan2nu

[Shan2nu]

I find this topic a bit too technical for shifting gears. I've decided to move it to "Tech Stuff".

Shan2nu

[SLK]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] (Shan2nu @ Oct. 22 2004,20:34)]Tata sumo with Reva engine? That's quite a compromise, don't you think. Hehe

Yes, it is (hope it moves)... But won't it be more of a compromise if this car was to Oversteer.

[Shan2nu]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]But won't it be more of a compromise if this car was to Oversteer

The only way that Reva battery is gonna oversteer a Sumo is if it gets hit by a "ultra high voltage" lightning. LOl

Tyre choice is probably the easiet way to make your car handle more neutrally.

It's always good to have 2 sets of tyres ( i.e : if your budget permits you) . One set of normal tyres for your daily runabouts and the other set for those weekend runs to the nearest ghat section or an open highway.

Shan2nu

[speedsatya]

its oversteer for almost all of us.so i am no different
the most fun i have ever had was in a 118NE ,as we used to do all these keedas on slightly muddy road and it was fun trying to correct it.
my zen has a lot of understeer with those skinny 145 tires.

[Hatari]

all road cars understeer ( its in their nature )..
u cant 'set' a car up for understeer/oversteer for the simple reason that road cars have no aerodynamic grip..

what i think we mean is fishtailing or no fishtailing..
which is all driver induced !

that said...
i love fishtailing.. its an awesome thrill..

but in car games.. esp. NFS 3.. in the mclaren F1..
fishtailing slows the car down.. so i wud set it up to understeer..
and set some real fast laps !

[Shan2nu]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]all road cars understeer ( its in their nature )..

Most road cars are setup so that they understeer, bcos carmakers feel a normal driver maynot be able to handle an oversteery car. It's not that it's in their nature.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]u cant 'set' a car up for understeer/oversteer for the simple reason that road cars have no aerodynamic grip..

I've never heard of such a thing.
What downforce do you expect, when you're cornering at 40-50kmph? Aerodynamics do help keep the car pressed to the ground, but only at very high speeds.

The suspenssion, tyres, toe angle, camber, center of gravity etc play a much more important role than just aerodynamics.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]what i think we mean is fishtailing or no fishtailing..
which is all driver induced !

Fishtailing? Isn't fishtailing where the rear of a car sways from side to side? That's why it's called fishtailing -moving like the tail of a fish.

Maybe oversteer, is what starts a "fishtail", but that's not what we're talking about here.

And, oversteer is not always driver induced. A car can be setup to oversteer even when the car is turned into a corner.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]but in car games.. esp. NFS 3.. in the mclaren F1..
fishtailing slows the car down.. so i wud set it up to understeer..
and set some real fast laps !

Dunno about that, but me n Revv find slight oversteer the way to go.

Shan2nu

[Hatari]

the definition of understeer is when the front of the car has less grip than the rear..vice versa for oversteer

understeer is a lot safer than oversteer..
because oversteer causes the car to becomes unstable..

[ ..these were facts ]


now,
road cars have only mechanical grip.. ie generated thru the tyres..
they do not create downforce
( i mean absolutely neglible amounts.even at high speeds
.. no where close to affecting grip levels )
so all the understeering/oversteer comes from whats under the car.. if u will.. which u cant really change..

the suspension can ofcourse be made stiffer or softer.. and if u had to..u could deflate the tyres to get a little more grip...

but other than that, u cant change the tyres ( front & rear are same ), toe angle, camber, center of gravity & weight distribution ( F1 cars use ballast for this ), ride height, anti roll bars, dampners, brake bias etc !

and are u actually telling me u can play around with these ?

these are for supercars/racing cars !
now the high end cars come with electronic power distribution to the wheels etc.. but thats different

roadcars that naturally 'oversteer' have something wrong with them..
my old esteem 'oversteers' .. quite a bit..
but only because the suspension is screwed ! and needs to be repaired !

what i think everyone means by oversteer is actually 'sway'
fishtailing is maybe too strong a word..
but thats what happens when the handbrake is pulled..
the rear violently slides away..

hope all this has simplifies matters rather than complicated them !

[anshu12420]

understeer for me

[Shan2nu]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]and are u actually telling me u can play around with these ?

The next time you get your car alligned, see what all is checked. Toe in/out, Camber and Caster, these are the 3 most important factors that can do wonders to a cars handling. Ofcourse, Caster maynot be altered in a modern car.

And yes, i can make my front engined FWD oversteer with just a few settings. Just bcoz people don't preffer to, it doesn't mean it can't be done.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]roadcars that naturally 'oversteer' have something wrong with them..

If a brand new car oversteers, then i guess the car was designed to do so. But in case of your Esteem, the suspenssion is surely screwed, or you have excess toe out.

If a person wants a roadcar to handle the way he likes it, he will go to any extent to get it done. Any road car can be turned into a great handler, if you know what all you need to do.

Haven't you seen the "Top Gear" episode, where they take this old Lada to a Lotus factory and turn it into a great handling car? Any car which can be run on the streets, legally, can be termed as a road/street legal car. I can change the suspenssion on a car, change it's tyres, add what ever i want and still have a road car that handles like a dream.

You just can't contradict the fact, that any road car can be turned into a good handler.

Shan2nu

[Shan2nu]

Never compare a race car to a road car, they're a world apart.

However, OS and US has nothing to do with how much grip a car has. While an F1 car would oversteer at 4-5 Gs, a road car might do the same at a little above 1 G. It doesn't matter when it happens, the theory is the same.

These are for you.

Making your car handle the way you want it to......

Adjustable ride height suspenssion kits for road cars......

"Top Gear" Lada upgrade video......

Shan2nu

[Hatari]

now ure going into modifying ure car.. ( not setting up )
i was talking about normal road cars
cmon.. then u cud fit a jet engine onto a road car and take it to 1000 miles/hr ! or even make it run over water ! *

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ] However, OS and US has nothing to do with how much grip a car has.

OS & US have everthing to do with grip, at the front & rear of the car.. ( they'r comparitive to one another )
http://www.progressauto.com/pages/oversteer.htm

that shud help..

P.S : how does g-force come into the picture ?

[Shan2nu]

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]cmon.. then u cud fit a jet engine onto a road car and take it to 1000 miles/hr ! or even make it run over water !

then, it would no longer be a road legal car. And i don't think fitting a jet engine will help the car handle better.

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]OS & US have everthing to do with grip, at the front & rear of the car.. ( they'r comparitive to one another )

Exactly, i said that OS and US is irrspective of how much grip a car has, i didn't mention the tyres in person. So it can't be that only a car with aerodynamics can have oversteer. F1 cars have much higher grip levels than a road car but, that doesnot affect OS and US in anyway, an OS at 4-5 Gs is the same as an OS at 1 G (it's irrespective of a cars grip - im not comparing the grip level between the front and rear tyres, but the grip levels of 2 diff cars). So how can you say that road cars cannot be set to OS?

Originally Posted by [b

Quote[/b] ]now ure going into modifying ure car.. ( not setting up )

Ok, lets have it your way then. All i have to do is increase the toe out on my car, use a little negative camber, increase tyre pressure at the front and reduce it at the rear and it will oversteer. I've seen it happen. No modifications required.

Shan2nu