[blahman]

Originally Posted by james

There is a Joel hating club too? The video was floating about online and that’s where I got hold of it.


Quick question, can I call out your positive experiences as ‘Claims’ too? No offence, Anoop.


I had read about your experience, Doctor. As I said earlier, we cannot call all the tuners as rogues just because of a few rotten apples. There are many good ones out there.

Alright James, I haven't come across such video online because I posted none.. Anyway it is what it is.. And yup you can always call out my experiences as claims as well, hence i'm wondering if it'd make the experience better for prospective tubro enthusiasts if they could only network more by attending meets, events,etc.. All these positive or negative views towards any turbo build can be seen firsthand instead of just believing what you read.

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

It's amusing how much advice you dish out that you don't follow yourself. I did read your post completely, and you did say all of those things. Context is understandably misunderstood in writing often, but your condescending tone is hard to miss.

I never went beyond asking Joel to clarify a few bits, and honestly, got a much more polite response from him than your generalized, condescending rant asking others not to, wait for it, generalize and be condescending. You may also want to reconsider your usage of 'irony' while you're at it.

Mods: Tried updating previous post but ran out of 30-min edit window. Please merge as appropriate.

Alright Chetan I admit my tone was a bit condescending as you mentioned.. Only because it's so hard to put your point across to people saying that there are good builds as well not just bad ones, there are still alternatives to buying a factory performance cars.. Cause I for one would enjoy getting an existing car built (because my wrenching skills don't permit me to build my own) than buying an off the shelf performance car.. YES there will be issues but there's a feeling of satisfaction that's different.. I'm not going to argue further about whether I was being a hypocrite or not.. Just trying to keep the mod scene alive and prevent people from getting turned away..


"P.P.S. Doesn't our very own professional tuner in discussion here sell bolt-on kits for bikes? You may want to reconsider the wrench-wielding monkeys bit."

Do you see anywhere that I mentioned I have a modified bike? You do realize bolt on turbo kits and bolt on exhausts are not the same right? Not being condescending at all.. Just stating that I wasn't talking about bikes

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by blahman

Alright Chetan I admit my tone was a bit condescending as you mentioned.. Only because it's so hard to put your point across to people saying that there are good builds as well not just bad ones, there are still alternatives to buying a factory performance cars.. Cause I for one would enjoy getting an existing car built (because my wrenching skills don't permit me to build my own) than buying an off the shelf performance car.. YES there will be issues but there's a feeling of satisfaction that's different.. I'm not going to argue further about whether I was being a hypocrite or not.. Just trying to keep the mod scene alive and prevent people from getting turned away..

No one is arguing that mate, even the OP has stated that he does not mean the tuning scene is terrible as a whole. If anyone does get turned off by reading such stuff, then I'd say that's a good thing. Extensive modifications are stuff I'd recommend only to experienced folks who know what they are getting into. I would not advise my cousin who just learnt how to drive, to have his car turboed simply because he loves NFS Underground 2 Point is this thread is about a particular experience and some people have chimed in to state their experiences with race concepts as well. Others who say stock is best or reputable tuners have to move abroad, neither have the experience nor will they ever be able to convince someone who knows their stuff, not to tune their car. Chill out man.

[Dr.Naren]

According to James, Race concepts advised him to buy those parts.

Race concept says customer bought chinese make turbo and asked them to install.

A simple proof about who is right here will end the controversy.

Cheers!

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by blahman

Just trying to keep the mod scene alive and prevent people from getting turned away..

Nobody can destroy a market but the product/service provider themselves. Skoda are still alive despite all the horror stories, aren't they? As Joel says himself, his quality of work will speak for itself.

Whether his business goes through the roof or the floor will ultimately depend on what he delivers to paying customers, not opinions on an internet forum.

Do you see anywhere that I mentioned I have a modified bike? You do realize bolt on turbo kits and bolt on exhausts are not the same right? Not being condescending at all.. Just stating that I wasn't talking about bikes

Never said you owned one. Just pointing out that you should refrain from disparaging a line of work just because it's a low-skill job in your opinion, esp. when the professional you're vociferously defending is in the 'bolt-on' business in some capacity himself, though admittedly a different kind.

Performance modding admittedly isn't my thing, but I'm no auto noob either. Thanks for asking.

[mayankk]

Those pictures are not confidence inspiring at all. And repeatedly mentioning that 2014 skill was not the same as 2016 sort of point to the installer not being at the top of the game back then.
Unless James went and bent and welded his own pipes. I'm sure all the other installs have gone fantastically well, but this one, even if you forego the supposedly El cheapo parts forced by the client, the workmanship is just not there. Looks like a bodge. Sorry about that. But will any of the satisfied people stand by that work on their car?

[technicalytuned]

I myself have seen such shoddy work by many so called “car tuners”. I have worked with some of the most reputed tuners in the industry ranging from piggyback to standalone ECU’s and have gone through almost all the builds ranging from Red Rooster performance to AMS performance. The tuners only focus on an increase of power rather than reliability and drivability which was evident from a seized engine of a Skoda Laura which was only driven for just 10k Km’s and the reason was improper AFR and ignition timing which caused knocking and overheating on regular gasoline and the excuse given to customer was poor quality of Gasoline.
I have seen many tuners use maps of drag car from other tuners on a road car with stock hardware which had catastrophic end with smoking exhaust due to worn out piston rings.


I would also request to all that do not remove a catalytic convertor (a common modification by the so called car tuners) which can result in Carbon monoxide poisoning since a car with catalytic converter gives CO levels of 300 ppm and a car without catalytic converted gives CO levels of more than 7000 ppm.

The severity and chances of CO poisoning increases and can happen in the following cases:

• Operating a vehicle with a defective exhaust system (e.g. leaking exhaust)
• Operating a vehicle with a defective emission system or poorly tuned engine.
• Driving a vehicle with the trunk lid or rear tailgate open.
• Driving a vehicle with holes in the car body.
• Warming up a vehicle in a garage, even with the outside garage door open.
• Operating vehicles in a garage, carwash, or any enclosed building.

I myself have done my final year Automobile Engineering project on “Engine Downsizing” where I had done Engine simulations on “Lotus Engine Simulation software”, Intake and exhaust manifold simulations on Fluent and CFX, and Intercooler, radiator simulation on Solid works. After doing so much of research and analysis I have come to a conclusion that Engine tuning is not an easy task. After market tuners can built a good rally car, drag car or a drift car but not an everyday car which is reliable. I too can tune a car engine on a dyno, make an aftermarket intake and exhaust at half the price of so called car tuners but not willing to do so by fooling the innocent so called “car enthusiast”. My sincere advice to all the people is stay away from aftermarket car engine tuning and modifications like free flow exhaust, cold air intake, large air filters, turbocharger or a supercharger which is not good for your health as well as wealth. If you want to enjoy the increase in power you can go for a car upgrade which is a better choice since it will avoid the headache of reliability and will give you good returns when you sell it off.

[sridhu]

I have been a voyeur on the performance mod scene - never could convince myself that one (or two) person can outthink an entire company's R&D team. All design is a set of compromises for a given goal. If you are aiming for a different goal and reworking the compromises, it might make sense to re-think the alternative 3-4 times. Well, that is what I think, at least.

That being said, this is a case of a service provider not meeting the customer's expectations and his subsequent handling of a service failure. To be honest, from a casual read of both parties, it appears to me that RD is being defensive. There is no trace of apology or sympathy for a customer who is suffering either thru wrong choices or shoddy work.

RD as the professional in question should have been clear about the consequences of the choices the customer made and from their own work. If they accepted substandard parts for a work that is ultimately their responsibility then they have no business saying the customer brought the parts. RD is the expert, customer is not (else they would have done it themselves).

It is like you going to the doctor and saying "I want to get operated for X as I think that will fix my Y problem." Even if that is the start point, if the doctor decides to go forward with a line of treatment, it is his responsibility.

Finally, I do not see the motive for the customer to lie. I can see a need for RD to not accept their mistakes. (I am not saying RD is; I am only seeing that there could be reason for them to ). RD, IMO, is doing more damage to their reputation by this line of attack than by trying to resolve the issue, even at the minor loss.

[speedfreak]

Hi everyone, been reading through all the pages silently.
I have been known Joel's even before the inception of race concepts. My car was the first car he built ( exhaust ecu intake )even before the race concept days. That's in 2011. Ever since then I have been closely associated with him and have seen most of the builds that he and his boys have carried out.
Now knowing Joel, he is not the kind of guy who compromises on thing. He prefers getting new parts for any build and does not cut corners anywhere. Now some times we have people who come in with their car which already has previous baggage. Such was the case with the thread starters car.
Now people do mistakes, after all we all are human. But what I have observed is that there is small group of " Joel haters" out there who make it their sole intention to deframe Joel and his work on social media, rather than having a mature conversation over phone or meeting up and sorting things out.
Now regarding the tuning scene. It's up to an individual to take his call. The tuning scene has been changing and maturing. Also clients are knowledgeable about the parts used and the cost of the same as all of it available on the net. This is something that will not change. Ppl will want to tune their, be it a simple exhaust fob or an all out turbo build. It's just that the person who wants to get his car done up needs to know who he is dealing with first.

[fieroid]

We are open to help our clients in any case of trouble or any minor hiccups that arise. No tuned build can ever be perfect. More power means more friction and heat and that in return means more maintenance too.
There is absolutely no denying that the work carried out was not as per our personal satisfaction too and we requested James to bring the car down for the rework. No point in going back and forth with who did and said what, but we are extremely saddened by the current situation. Each and every client is extremely important to us and we are still open to helping James if he is interested.

[hiran77]

Originally Posted by james

Thank you for posting up, Hiran. I maintain that Joel has the brains and ability to be a good tuner. However, I find him to be highly unethical.
Any petrol car with higher compression, a freer flowing exhaust and a filter would be very responsive. Add to that a good cam and a piggyback and you would have a stonker of a car.
How weak was the old head gasket? Just asking as you said the heating reduced after the headwork.

There was no issue with my car regarding head gasket. Post all the work with increased hp and torque I do not have to change gears frequently. Can hold one higher gear without the car stuttering or shuddering. can climb over speed breakers in 3rd gear without a fuss. Not that i do it occasionally but to let you know the difference.

Also I had mild idling issues post the cam install which could generally be sorted only with an ECU upgrade. all that has been fixed by joel. Idles perfect. runs smooth. pulls clean. cant ask for anything more.

Regarding Ethics:

I being an enthusiast have coaxed Joel to pull more outta the car and suggested a few things myself after reading a lot of things in the net.
Now he as a tuner can do those things and charge me for it. After all he means business right?
He has always been frank and let me know that some things what i had in mind are not right for my specific car. will be a waste of money

So I am sorry I do not know what happened in your case.

[kutlee]

Originally Posted by james

When I had initially visited his garage, I noticed he used to keep cutting calls or letting the phone ring. I should have realized I would be treated the same way too some day.

Joel has decent knowledge and the brains to do some good stuff.

I second this. Have noticed and also experienced the same. Last time i had some issues, car was lying there. I went with tow truck and tried to call him and tell that i was getting to tow my car. Never picked the call. Car started (magically) and asked the tow fellow to follow me just in case.

[james]

I would like to make it clear that RD and RC are not the same. RD is race Dynamics and they have nothing major to do with this build. They just hooked up the Piggyback. RC is Race Concepts and they are the people who worked on my car.

Originally Posted by kutlee

I second this. Have noticed and also experienced the same. Last time i had some issues, car was lying there. I went with tow truck and tried to call him and tell that i was getting to tow my car. Never picked the call. Car started (magically) and asked the tow fellow to follow me just in case.

Im not surprised at reading this. Infact, I wish I had done the same thing. I would be grateful if you could share your experience with the team here.

@All- Joel has offered to make amends and fix my car. He pinged me on WhatsApp, used the choicest of words and later told me he will fix the car. An offer I declined. The reasons are simple. Ive been listening to these talks about evolving since years. However, there isn’t a will to evolve. Its just a way to diffuse a situation. In my honest opinion, its just a way to tell everyone that he is a honest business man and filled with ethics. Its damage control. I do not want to harp on that part as his workmanship and ethics has been clearly visible and is still visible on builds done a few months ago- I will refrain from calling out names of these unlucky people. As I stated earlier, I have cut my losses and want to have nothing to do with Race Concepts or Joel. In the near future, you will see more such threads about Race Concepts. Never in his wildest dreams would he have imagine that the things he did in the past will come back to bite him.

His responses on this thread have had a condescending tone and you can also sense his ARROGANCE. In his WA msgs, he said I don't have the ability or technical knowhow to work on my car and I'm fit to just change clutch plates and wash my bike. Maybe change oil and lube the chain once in a while. I didn't respond to that as I know what I'm capable of doing. Over here he accused me of giving him many Chinese components that I didn’t even give him. These are parts that he sources saying they are OE and charged me a big amount. I wonder if they are OE or replicas now. When I called his bluff, he conveniently didn’t respond to it. Nowhere has he mentioned any reasons for not answering calls/msgs, being aloof, giving incorrect delivery dates, making me wait at Race Dynamics for so long etc etc etc. He is just ignoring it. However, he comes out with bold statements that his Each and every client is extremely important to him.

I do not want to take this further. I have said what I had to and have backed it up with ample proof. I have more proof and more info if Joel wants to drag this further. Till then, I will be a silent spectator and will post here only if necessary. Again, the aim of this thread isn’t to get Justice. The aim is to caution people who want to have their cars modded. Not all tuners are bad- There are good tuners out there who are struggling to keep the tuning scene alive. That said, the scene would be better off without tuners who promise the earth and the moon and deliver Junk fit for the scrappers!!

Thank you all for going through the thread and listening me out. I understand it was a long boring post but I had to get this off my back!
Cheers!

[yzfrj]

Originally Posted by fieroid

Zahin handed over the car to us with a chinese turbo and a host of chinese parts, including a BOV,

Originally Posted by james

10.8k you charged me for the HKS BOV?

If a HKS BOV is an unreliable Chinese product, I wonder what will pass muster.

[yzfrj]

Originally Posted by james

In his WA msgs, he said I don't have the ability or technical knowhow to work on my car and I'm fit to just change clutch plates and wash my bike. Maybe change oil and lube the chain once in a while.

Apologies for the back to back posts, but at the risk of repeating myself, what the hell did I just read?

[Nissan1180]

I have no intention of sharing an opinion on your experience because I am not qualified to do so.
However, I am a bit perturbed at the highhandedness with which an aggrieved customer is being responded to. The first rule of any business- whether it is a Paan shop or a high tech company is that the customer is usually always right.
I was curious to know the installation cost of a turbo elsewhere and most online reports indicated it to be around $5000, which is about the same as what is mentioned here. I wonder why 3lakhs is being treated as a low budget installation. If people in first world countries with high labor rates can manage it, what are the challenges that prevent professional work from being reasonably priced here?
Also, companies sell turbocharged cars at Rs. 6 lakhs on the road- half of that is not a small sum of money that can be laughed off.