[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Nissan1180

I was curious to know the installation cost of a turbo elsewhere and most online reports indicated it to be around $5000, which is about the same as what is mentioned here. I wonder why 3lakhs is being treated as a low budget installation. If people in first world countries with high labor rates can manage it, what are the challenges that prevent professional work from being reasonably priced here?
Also, companies sell turbocharged cars at Rs. 6 lakhs on the road- half of that is not a small sum of money that can be laughed off.

Just commenting on the technical side: It is generally a little more expensive than that to do a reliable turbo install on an old naturally aspirated car, the internals of which are not typically rated to handle a turbo. Forged parts that can handle the stress are typically expensive. The small cars you are talking about that offer a turbocharger at 6 lakhs on road, utilize extremely small turbos that are not capable of putting out anywhere close to 150WHP. Besides, it is easier for a car company to offer a turbo-ed car since it is easy to handle costs at the large-scale manufacturing end. A custom build will require custom parts and that does not come cheap. Importing parts into India is also usually and expensive affair. Then you need to take into consideration the cost of labour for such builds since it is not just about sourcing parts Just giving a rough idea on why mods like this are expensive.

[rsm97]

I read here a customer complaining about the quality of service he got, including expressing subtle pain for possibly being fleeced over and above. From that perspective, the responses posted by service provider have not covered him exactly in glory.

I neither do know any of the persons involved, nor can verify the authenticity of things said. However, the description of the situation alone made me relate to it. Have come across star service providers a couple of times who have their fan-club. Once somewhat deep into the relationship, the service provider unwilling to go by conduct rules slowly establishes himself as rescuer. The client has crossed the point of return which makes withdrawal a tough decision. The treatment then client gets is not driven by rules but fluctuates according to the convenience and mood of the other party.

Must re-emphasize that since I am in no position to authenticate a lot of things said, this should not be read as reflection on any individual involved. I may be biased, but any un-organized service industry certainly has its own horror tales.

[yzfrj]

Originally Posted by fieroid

More power means more friction and heat and that in return means more maintenance too.

Originally Posted by james

Is this also why you use motorcycle oil in cars? Motul 7100 with motorcycle oil written clearly on it. And if you missed that, there was a pic of a bike on it too. When I asked, you said it’s the same oil. You, sir, have lost the plot!! Im appalled!

It certainly seems so. People all around the world extract power by reducing friction. It would appear that the laws of physics don't apply in this particular neck of the woods.

Originally Posted by http://husqvarnaoutlet.com/the_true_difference_between_motorcycle_oil_and_aut omotive_oil

Automotive oil looks pretty enticing at $3 a quart but any experienced motorcycle rider knows that using automotive oil in motorcycles causes serious damage. In automotive vehicles, the engine is always separate from the clutch and transmission so they have separate oils for each. In automotive engine oil, there is more of what is called "friction modifiers" to help lessen the amount of friction on engine components and improve fuel economy. Of course, improving fuel economy has always been the main goal of the automotive industry; therefore, making friction modifiers a necessity for all automotive oils.

These friction modifiers that are added to automotive oils are what cause serious damages when used in motorcycles. The friction modifiers clog the clutch plates in a motorcycle's transmission causing serious clutch slippage and disabling the motorcycle. Motorcycles have to be as compact as possible and to do this, the engine and transmission have to be combined together into one casing. This means that everything is lubricated by only one type of oil including the valves, piston, transmission, and clutch.

Motorcycles require very little and/or no friction modifiers to help improve clutch friction and to prevent clutch slippage. But to make up for this lack of friction modifiers, motorcycle oils use higher levels of anti-wear additives such as ZDDP, also known as phosphorous, to limit engine friction and wear. Since motorcycle oil has extra anti-wear additives and is lubricating so much more than automotive oil, you can expect to pay anywhere from $9 to $15 a quart.

[SatsMumbai]

Originally Posted by james

Again, the aim of this thread isn’t to get Justice. The aim is to caution people who want to have their cars modded. Not all tuners are bad- There are good tuners out there who are struggling to keep the tuning scene alive. That said, the scene would be better off without tuners who promise the earth and the moon and deliver Junk fit for the scrappers!!

I think the thread is achieving the intended purpose. I personally have seen some very good tuners and a very good friend of mine used to own a Performance tuning workshop. There are definitely good ones out there.

But I do not get the logic of to protect / encourage the Indian Performance Tuning Industry, one should be more tolerant / forgiving for bad jobs, as suggested by me (and as inferred by me)

This thread really brings attention to
Tuning Industry in general and tuning scene in India in particular and how an installer can make or break the complete experience. With the replies posted by the installer, it is very clear that installer does not want to own anything (including the delays) and since it is thoroughly complained, he is open to address the concerns now. The moment I read the response, it brought back some unpleasant memories that I had not just in Auto industry but elsewhere as well with respect to shoddy jobs, overshooting time lines, not answering / responding to communication.

And I really appreciate the high road that you are taking now. If I may, please do not entertain this installer again for any damage control as you already made your peace (which is very important).

Fortunately, the future is not all that bleak. There are good ones out there and I am sure you will get to interact with them and the hobby reignites in a good way.

To some who are talking about some haters club, I will explain how this is happening. I was neutral when I read James story except that I was sorry for what he went through. I would have gone to Joel if some one else recommends him to me as it is one positive and one neutral. However seeing the response by the installer, it is very clear to me what one might get as a service from this installer. And that changes everything.

[fine69]

I spent the last hour going through an ordeal which has left me !

There can never EVER be an excuse for a badly treated customer and I'm not even talking about the build.

I was really hoping that Joel should be given a chance to present his version and I'm glad he did. He owes James 22,800/- if I read the below para correctly. He's conveniently chosen to keep quiet on this, I hope he's planning to wire this money to James soon. Else its really hard to believe other things that he's mentioned.

Originally Posted by james

I gave you the BOV? In that case, can I please get the 10.8k you charged me for the HKS BOV? Please refer to SI.#1 on the excel sheet attached to the final payment email you had sent me. The amount that I cleared the very same day without haggling.

Chinese wastegate? The wastegate was Chinese? Im sure its one of the parts I gave you, right? If so, please refer to SI.#2 on the excel sheet attached to the final payment email you had sent me labeled ‘Wastegate 38mm’. Can I have my 12k back? I seemed to have paid you for it.

Originally Posted by fieroid

We are open to help our clients in any case of trouble or any minor hiccups that arise. No tuned build can ever be perfect. More power means more friction and heat and that in return means more maintenance too.

First things first, do you have a disclaimer in the paperwork that you & customer exchange or anywhere in your workshop that expresses the same opinion that you've expressed on this thread - no build is reliable, turbo builds mean more maintenance, don't expect your car to be running as troublefree as a stock car would etc. I think its really needed, ain't it?
However, since you are not a non-profit, disclaimers might be bad for business or reputation or both.

This thread isn't helping your case either. I'm saying this only because while you made tall claims about how your version would clarify things, it doesn't really cover up for an extremely bad treatment that you bestowed upon somebody who trusted you with his money & time.

Originally Posted by fieroid

No point in going back and forth with who did and said what, but we are extremely saddened by the current situation. Each and every client is extremely important to us and we are still open to helping James if he is interested.

I thought that's what you wanted to do earlier. Suddenly there's no point in doing this? I don't even know James but there's absolutely no excuse for treating a customer the way it all went. Since you are still focusing on the build instead owing up for all those occasions when you left him hanging dry by not showing up on time and not showing up at all to not answering calls etc. I really wish that RC improves on customer service the way they have improved their technical skills.

Now out of curiosity, an honest question to all, if we aren't supposed to mod our cars but since we do, are we breaking any laws? If yes, who can be prosecuted for it, just the owner or other parties who are modifying the vehicle too?

[Chetan_Rao]

From whatever has been posted so far (subject to change if further evidence is provided by either party), Joel (and Race Concepts by extension) haven't really been convincing about their version of events:

1. Joel accused the OP of forcing him to use incompatible, sub-standard parts while there's documented evidence that the OP only purchased those after obtaining Joel's consent. Joel hasn't refuted/clarified this so far.

2. Joel accused the OP of providing TWO specific sub-standard parts (cheap Chinese BOV and a faulty outsized waste-gate), but the user has documentary evidence of being invoiced for the said parts by Race Concepts which would indicate Joel bought those parts himself. What's the truth?

3. Joel claims he wasn't comfortable by the OP's demands to begin with, but still took on a build he himself claims would never have worked, but "it came to us as work so we took it on", meaning what exactly? This won't work but there's money to be made so why decline?

4. Joel claims he did what the OP demanded despite his misgivings, but there are documented instances of him circumventing the OP's demands. One specific example is using nylon-braided lines when the OP specifically demanded steel-braided ones. If the build is inspected part-by-part, there will surely be plenty others.

5. Joel hasn't responded to specific claims of poor workmanship (except one instance where he accepted bad welding work, but again blamed the OP for forcing the compromise on him), which again is backed up by evidence from OP. Even assuming the OP is to be blamed for supplying some faulty parts, what about shoddy workmanship after keeping the car multiple months?

The OP may or may not be entirely blameless, but there's absolutely no substantial argument from Joel so far except vague claims of treating customers seriously and working to improve and offering help. Each business should do that, but would you please address specifics of this instance?

@Joel: As much as you think the OP is trying to hurt your reputation and malign your business, your own reluctance to address specific issues raised by the OP and instead providing defensive, vague and dismissive arguments without dealing with/in facts is hurting your case more than any claims of shoddy work ever will.

You are of course entitled to refuse to comment or explain yourself or just dodge specific questions (as you've repeatedly done so far), but then you should probably recant your accusations which don't seem to add up with the evidence provided.

[createrkid]

A friend owns a 2007 Honda civic and is keen on getting it turbo'd. He "had" a budget of around 6 lakhs, I gladly recommended Joel / RC to him after reading various threads here about RC and their perfection. To my horror, this thread showed up on the front page yesterday and I read it for an hour pondering over so many things. The first thing I did was call my friend and link him to this, he read it and we both discussed. Should we believe James' version? Should we listen to Joel's? To be honest, it's really sad no particular party is coming forward with their fault. It's purely pointing fingers at this point, although we're really inclined to lean towards James with the sea of evidence that he has put up and on the other side, we've got Joel trying to uphold his professionalism. Oh boy, is this a soup or what! Right now, my friend is in two minds about this entire episode and has halted his upgrade for now. If mistakes have been made by either of the involved parties, it's completely alright to accept them and move on rather than burn through time and peace of mind.

[blahman]

Originally Posted by createrkid

A friend owns a 2007 Honda civic and is keen on getting it turbo'd. He "had" a budget of around 6 lakhs, I gladly recommended Joel / RC to him after reading various threads here about RC and their perfection. To my horror, this thread showed up on the front page yesterday and I read it for an hour pondering over so many things. The first thing I did was call my friend and link him to this, he read it and we both discussed. Should we believe James' version? Should we listen to Joel's? To be honest, it's really sad no particular party is coming forward with their fault. It's purely pointing fingers at this point, although we're really inclined to lean towards James with the sea of evidence that he has put up and on the other side, we've got Joel trying to uphold his professionalism. Oh boy, is this a soup or what! Right now, my friend is in two minds about this entire episode and has halted his upgrade for now. If mistakes have been made by either of the involved parties, it's completely alright to accept them and move on rather than burn through time and peace of mind.

If I were your friend I'd visit the next drag event, look at various builds and network with a lot of tuners and car owners. Collect feedbacks from different owners and take a call if I'd still go through with it. Cause anything I say or anyone else will just be some guy who types behind a screen. Best to experience it first hand. Hope it helps

[SnS_12]

Originally Posted by Chetan_Rao

2. Joel accused the OP of providing TWO specific sub-standard parts (cheap Chinese BOV and a faulty outsized waste-gate), but the user has documentary evidence of being invoiced for the said parts by Race Concepts which would indicate Joel bought those parts himself. What's the truth?

This one reminds me of an instance which happened in the late 90's when I had my first fish tank. I had bought an air pump from the aquarium guy, which he mentioned was top of the line and charged me 400 bucks for it. After a few years the pump stopped functioning and when I took it to the same guy to have it checked he mentioned that its of no use reparing it as its a chinese product and of poor quality. He clearly did not remember that he sold me the pump for a bomb and I too never bothered to create a fuss about it back then.

In the instance thats been discussed, it really amazes me that the Tuner remembers all the parts that went into a build two years back. Or maybe he remembers only the Chinese parts that were put in, oblivious to the fact that who actually bought them, that is the owner or the tuner???

[Chetan_Rao]

Originally Posted by createrkid

.....my friend is in two minds about this entire episode and has halted his upgrade for now......

That below (from Anoop a.k.a 'blahman'), is the most practical advice you can get! Check out multiple tuners, experience their work first-hand and talk to owners about their experience, preferably those who've lived with their modded cars for a while so you'll have a more relevant & balanced opinion (rather than the hunky-dory "everything's great" excitement of a new customer).

Would also make sense to talk to your chosen tuner(s) in detail and set expectations beforehand reg. estimates (time, effort, money, post-mod reliability, availability for rework etc.) so you have a fair idea what you're both getting into and avoid heartburn later.

If a tuner paints a "nothing can go wrong, trust me I'm an expert at this" picture in response to your questions, turn around and run like hell!

Originally Posted by blahman

.....Best to experience it first hand..

[Nikhilb2008]

Woah! What a sad story. For both James and Joel.

James,

I really do feel bad for you. For whatever reason, you have been given a car not worthy of a brand like Race Concepts. Joel is a big name on the track and maybe that was a big reason for the delays and the issues you've faced. Blahman, One of his clients has also confirmed that race schedules take priority over street builds.

I would like to aim my posts at those people who keep on repeating that tuning in India is bad and not worth doing.

I vehemently disagree with everyone saying you have to buy a fast factory car. What if I cant afford it? Does that mean I dont deserve a fast car?

Yes, one thing my tuner friends instilled in me was a DEEP DEEP respect for factory tuning and factory work. You can see that I have mentioned that in my thread.

They are very honest and kept my expectations realistic. They made my realise the importance of OEM tuning. They made it very clear that reaching OEM levels of refinement is very difficult. OEMs spend hundreds of hours, millions of dollars, many months and thousands of kms of testing to fine tune their final engine map. And doing that for us in the aftermarket is very difficult. This was a pleasant change for me. I am used to people from the aftermarket industry always complaining about how badly designed the stock car or components are!

At the end of the whole process, I have renewed respect for the guy who fine tune an OEM car for all conditions the car is supposed to go through. So, my car isnt as refined as the stock Civic but currently, it is not too bad. Again, I am told it will improve once they do the final tuning session on the dyno.

So, while a factory fast car is out of my budget, I still got a stonking fast car which seems to be holding up well.

I got it done within a certain time frame and I had minimal downtime. Now, if oyu are someone who is always in Bangalore, then you may have issues. For me, I had to travel a lot out of Bangalore and my tuners used this time to finetune my car.

I believe quality work can be done in India. Absolutely NO doubts about it.

This kind of a bad experience like what James had had shouldnt put someone off tuning.

Tuning or making a stock car faster is a very challenging but rewarding process. It can be very frustrating if you dont know the pros and cons properly. You have to have your expectations realistic.

End of the day, a guy modifying his car has to go with a tuner who will stand up for his work. Good or bad.

Humans have a tendency of generalising a lot. We have a bad experience at a restaurant, we call it a terrible restaurant. We have a bad experience with tuning, we call tuning in India unprofessional. I wholeheartedly disagree.... Tuning in India is only getting better. The tuners should probably be a bit clearer while communicating and set realistic expectations from the customers.

I can really feel your pain having gone through my own issues for my turbo build.

I did pay a high price, but then as they cheap and fast is not reliable and fast and reliable isnt cheap.

But thankfully, after everything I have a working turbo car. For how long? Well, it's anyone's guess!

[blahman]

Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008

Joel is a big name on the track and maybe that was a big reason for the delays and the issues you've faced. Blahman, One of his clients has also confirmed that race schedules take priority over street builds.

Before someone makes a different assumption of what I meant when i said the above statement let me explain further on it. The only difference that priority has done for me is a slight delay on my build. But in no way has it affected the quality of my build. Frankly it's because of his expertise in race builds that my car has held the thrashing I've put it through both on the street and on the track. All switchable with maps in no time. I'm not saying you meant something else, it's just that my previous posts haven't been clearer while I was explaining myself. Nice to see you share your experiences without holding anything back, hopefully we can see you at the events so you can meet fellow turbo'ed lads. It is seriously the best experience of my build, making new friends with the same terminal disease as me. For that I'm truly grateful to him.

I hope we can conclude this thread soon, both of them has had their say, he's offered to correct whatever wrong has been done to the customer. Everyone get's frustrated when their ethics are in question and savagely commented on without hesitation. We are humans after all to lose our cool. It's just sad when I see people commenting that they aren't sure they want to go ahead with their builds after going through this and another similar thread.

[yzfrj]

Originally Posted by blahman

I hope we can conclude this thread soon, both of them has had their say, he's offered to correct whatever wrong has been done to the customer.

Has he now? So far this is what I have observed based on what has been published on this thread:

1. Tuner calls the customer a liar and a cheapskate, threatens to "expose" his lies.
2. Rambles incoherently about being forced to use Chinese junk, conveniently forgetting the fact that some of it has been procured by him, and the rest has been greenlighted by him.
3. Uses substandard parts for critical components like oil feed lines, and plugs coolant hoses under the pretext that coolant would perforate a cast iron jacket and damage the turbo - all this without informing the customer.
4. Brushes off pressurized oil gushing out of ruptured hoses.
5. Uses oil meant for bikes in a car engine.
6. Treats the customer like dirt.
7. Gets called out by all and sundry, and after realizing that the jig is up, starts acting all concerned and humble.

If your tuner had the courage to fess up at the very beginning instead of trying to come across all hard, he probably would have gained some respect.

Ironically, all of your collective attempts are only serving to confirm how shallow most of the people in this scene are. It's no wonder nobody trusts tuners anymore. It is sadly funny when I read about you being so concerned about the well being of the community whilst calling others cheapskates and unimportant.

[blahman]

Originally Posted by yzfrj

If your tuner had the courage to fess up at the very beginning instead of trying to come across all hard, he probably would have gained some respect.

Ironically, all of your collective attempts are only serving to confirm how shallow most of the people in this scene are. It's no wonder nobody trusts tuners anymore. It is sadly funny when I read about you being so concerned about the well being of the community whilst calling others cheapskates and unimportant.

He'll clarify those points you put across and then maybe we can finally have a conclusion?!

About my "collective" efforts, I never said the industry is filled with people with no clinks in their armor. Everyone's got their regrets, if this particular guy is as consistent in delivering bad quality builds as he is being portrayed here in this thread it would've been reflected on my build as well. Either way I don't expect anyone to take me for my word until they come and have a look at it for themselves. Like I mentioned in my previous posts I cheapskated before and bore the brunt of getting my car towed for a Standalone swap. As Nikhil rightly mentioned before "Cheap and fast isn't reliable, Reliable and fast isn't cheap".

Now if we can all wait for Joel to have his say without me and you or anyone else arguing about the same thing over and over again, all of us will have lesser effort to put into while scrolling down this thread. I'll take my own advice first and stop posting for a bit.

[yzfrj]

Originally Posted by blahman

He'll clarify those points you put across and then maybe we can finally have a conclusion?!

A conclusion can only be reached when the clarifications satisfy the customer. So far we have seen every attempt at clarification contradict every previous attempt, so it will certainly be interesting to see what he comes up with this time.

Originally Posted by blahman

About my "collective" efforts, I never said the industry is filled with people with no clinks in their armor. Everyone's got their regrets, if this particular guy is as consistent in delivering bad quality builds as he is being portrayed here in this thread it would've been reflected on my build as well. Either way I don't expect anyone to take me for my word until they come and have a look at it for themselves. Like I mentioned in my previous posts I cheapskated before and bore the brunt of getting my car towed for a Standalone swap. As Nikhil rightly mentioned before "Cheap and fast isn't reliable, Reliable and fast isn't cheap".

You cheapskated on an ECU. That is not the same as being saddled with lubricant lines made out of the wrong material for the job, or coolant lines being blocked, etc. I sincerely doubt you understand the gravity of these errors by somebody who prides himself on being a race winner. I would pay to see how gracious you act when similar errors are made with your build.

PS: Have you figured out the correct name for whatever you call this?

Originally Posted by blahman

- Exhaust manifold seal or whatever you call it was loose and exhaust gas was leaking hence there was loss in power: Sorted in 30 minutes at his garage.