[humyum]

Originally Posted by ezee

Mahindra showed true colors:

I had AMT warning light yesterday and decided to write them again and within 1 hours I got a call from Zonal Head Mr. Santhanam (dealing with my case). I started explaining problems to him about AMT warning light along with some other issues and a reply of my last mail sent where he promised to get back about technical and legal feasibility of possible upgrade to 100 bhp.

First off all he straight away denied any such possibility of upgrade because as per them the mHawk80 engine and AMT system is free of any defects, despite of N number of failures reported. Also when reported the AMT warning light issue he said it could a minor one (whereas in owners manual is clearly written that if you see that light blinking, immediately stop vehicle and contact service centre) and said until and unless you are able to simulate that in front of us we are not going to help.

By then the arguments were turned into a heated conversation (deliberately did that to make him speak truth). Meanwhile I asked him about proof of all maintenance activities performed in my vehicle and all recalls. He said no proofs are to be given to customer and recalls are made public until there is threat to driver/passengers life So as per them Jerks, FDM and Modulator was not a threat to our lives. Also proofs will be given to court only.

So he started loosing patience and tried to run away from every possible responsibility and when I said take back your vehicle and refund me, then he said you purchased vehicle and its your headache to deal with now. Neither we will upgrade/update nor we will take back vehicle. He also said you are only few of those who want to create a social propaganda only and don't have any such problems (after spending 11 Lacs taking these pain). Then he said you are free to goto court and do whatever you want to do.

So guys Mahindra showed their true colors today by just running away from all such AMT failures and a faulty cheap vehicle they manufactured. But its not the end for us we as a group decided now to go formally and very soon reporting matter to SIAM and then to National Consumer Forum against Mahindra for selling a defected/faulty TUV 300 AMT which is dangerous to drive.

Those who want to come along, are welcome !

Hey Ezee, I have posted my hypothesis regarding what 'could be the probable problem' of the jerks.

Giving you the link for the same. See if this is what you think it is.

Link--> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3978730

[ezee]

Originally Posted by humyum

Hey Ezee, I have posted my hypothesis regarding what 'could be the probable problem' of the jerks.

Giving you the link for the same. See if this is what you think it is.

Link--> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3978730

Thanks humyum for taking your time but as a layman one cant see what exactly is happening inside engine bay and when we ask these things to Mahindra engineers they just ignore, quoting everything is either normal or characteristic of an AMT system or feature on TUV AMT.

[ezee]

One More - New Day New Problems:

As posted by one of fellow TUV AMT owner from Faridabad, as he met with an accident and cheated a possible near death situation just because of a very unique feature of TUV AMT. (All TUV AMT owners please take this unique feature very seriously, as it can be a life threatening situation while overtaking or trying to run out quickly)

ABHINAV FROM FARIDABAD

Today had a smashed TUV by a heavy duty truck. Narrowly escaped else would not have been writing. Anyways by now am over with the morning stress and am in better shape to explain it.
In the morning while going to the office while overtaking another car there was a truck surging from opposite direction, as I tried to get away from it TUV lost power momentarily and there was the big thud though have been able to save the head-on collision.

After analysing the issue with the technical staff of service centre, got to know the reasons behind it.

Just for the understanding of everyone, how would we generally handle it in manual vehicle. As the speed was around 35-40kmph, best thing was to move leg on brake & clutch and use it depending on the situation without breaking the already momentum to sail through.

In case of auto today, was already in the above speed range and moved the leg to brake pedal, due to the slight pressure on brake pedal due to sensor vehicle downshifted to 2nd. The moment i felt that vehicle was decelerating due to shift and truck approaching fast; i fully open the throttle. Now here came the second twist whenever the TUV software senses the fully depressed accelerator it again downshifts because its program feels that additional torgue is required by the vehicle.
Now within the fraction of second there was 2 downshifts 3-2-1. Collectively they reduced the momentum, after a while felt the big push and was able to save the front of TUV but could not save the rear portion.

Just for knowledge downshifts are slow as compared to the upshift.

The above is after discussing this in detail with the service guy and also try to simulate it. He did show this while doing the test drive.

But lastly they declared it as the feature of AMT and advised me to be careful while doing such maneuver. How to explain them that these type of traffic is faced daily and no one plans the accident with his own car.

A bit of calculation the impact portion of my car with the truck was roughly 1 metre and assuming speed of TUV and truck at 20kmph (though i felt trucks speed was more), as we were approaching each other so net speed was 40kmph.

So, 40000 metres/3600 sec = 11.11 m/sec
Thus time require to cover 1 metre is less than 10th of a second.

Had the power surged had come even a 10th of a second earlier, i would have been saved.
Is Mahindra fully aware of above problem and that is why launched the 100 BHP engine. Had it been 100 BHP engine things would have been different ? Can't be sure, auto experts can comment.

AMT user can very well gauge how much time a downshift takes and with 2 back to back shifts, how much time got wasted.
The present AMT is full of risk in current state of tune, most of the driver would agree in practical scenario it is very risky to have around a second of power loss.

Do questioned the above reasoning and conclusion, as we ourselves have to find the way out because for Mahindra it is the product feature.

One more TUV AMT owner from Mumbai quoted as

SHARAD TATER FROM MUMBAI - Also had a near miss due to this unique feature. So he wrote an email to Mahindra guys as given below

To
CUSTOMERCARE
CC
MAHADIK MANGESH


Dear Customer Care,

While you decide, weather to take below email as technical issue and work on it or not, I request you to honour your technical expert Mr. Nikhil's verbal communications.

I request you to take the responsibility of this minor accident, which was caused due to technical feature of TUV300 AMT as informed by Mr. Nikhil and repair the bumper (paint and alignment) and provide scratch free car back to me.

I also want you to provide in writing to me these so called but hidden features of TUV300 AMT in writing so that I can learn them and practice them to avoid major accidents as happened to one owner in north region. I don't want to discover them or get to know them only after I meet and come out alive from an accident.

As of now the TUV300 AMT feature informed to me verbally by Mr. Nikhil are -

1. TUV300 AMT transmission software manages speed & RPM while clutch operations, that is clutch opening and closing. The owner has to learn it and break the speed in heavy traffic using brake pedal pressure. This is true in case of upshift / downshift and emergency braking. Owner has to fight diesel torque, high RPM and speed increase using brake pedal force, at the same time concentrating on traffic chaos on Indian roads.

2. TUV300 AMT will downshift if you floor the A pedal as it THINKS the owner needs more torque. In the process of downshifting, TUV300 AMT suddenly looses momentum and speed for good amount of seconds causing high probability of accidents.

This sudden loss of speed will result in rear impact because there will be no brake light activation to tell the car behind you that TUV300 AMT has decided to slow down. This will also result in head on collision and air bags deployment if the owner was trying to overtake on highway and in order to avoid frontal collision, he pressed on the A pedal.

This is too much of sensor work and over usage of technology to ensure the driver is killed. Why can't the techies understand that if I need power I will downshift or use manual mode? Please don't assume we are pilots and make things so complicated for us.

3. Each time we complain, We are told use manual mode. But when asked that your manual mode downshifts gears automatically based on its pre decided speed and RPM calculations the same technical head says yes, that it does. When in manual mode why don't you let us decide the gears we want to drive in and let the engine knock if we are foolish enough to not maintain required RPMs or speed?

I hope you will provide written feature list, be bold enough and give confirmation of above features in return email and most important, repair the bumper first as top most priority.

Regards,
Sharad Tater

[Zappo]

My my! What a can of worms! Mahindra is doing everything wrong in handling these issues going by Mr Santhanam's reply to you. I do not know what kind of people Mahindra has at senior levels who give such replies to their paying customers. I am sure if Mahindra deducts even Rs10 from Mr Santhanam's pay cheque he will make a big noise and would not like to hear someone telling him that he is just making unnecessary noises. He expects his customer to shut up after spending 11 big ones?!

Shame on you Mahindra. All the goodwill that you may have been generating all this while is just flying out of the window with people like Mr Santhanam at the helm to deal with such problem cases. Not only are you putting your customers through hardships but you have put people in charge who do not understand jack about dealing with real problems.

[extreme_torque]

Utterly appalling. I have never been comfortable with these semi automatic transmissions and have always said that there are far too many variables to consider. What makes it particularly bad in case of TUV300 is the power or rather lack of it. I dont know how much Mahindra can do in this case but these are serious life threatening issues and Mahindra should be ashamed of selling a product like this in the market. Chuck the AMT guys, sell manual transmission only after you know of the problems.

[LoneRidder]

Originally Posted by ezee

One More - New Day New Problems:

As posted by one of fellow TUV AMT owner from Faridabad, as he met with an accident and cheated a possible near death situation just because of a very unique feature of TUV AMT. (All TUV AMT owners please take this unique feature very seriously, as it can be a life threatening situation while overtaking or trying to run out quickly)
One more TUV AMT owner from Mumbai quoted as

I don't agree this as a problem in the TUV. All AMTs are designed to be this way. As a driver, one it should be more responsible on how his or her vehicle would behave on different situations before venturing into serious manoeuvres. There is big difference in driving a hatch, a sedan or SUV or even one vehicle to other.

AMTs simply cannot be driven like MT. The vehicle uses lot of sensors and and the owner should first get used to it before venturing into sharp overtakes. When pressing the break, at 30-40 kms, obviously it should down shift, this should be done even on MT. However, if the vehicle comes to lower speed, to extract the extra torque you either shift down to quick surge or press accelerator and over a period of time the vehicle gathers momentum in MT. In AMT as the torque is decided by the sensors, for quick surge of power, at lower speed the vehicle will down shift. The above issue is purely how any AMT should function.

I am afraid to say, some of the AMT users should seriously know the vehicle before making serious ventures. After all TUV is a heavy vehicle. I know good number of AMT guys who are doing really good!

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by LoneRidder

I don't agree this as a problem in the TUV. All AMTs are designed to be this way.

+1 Save for modern day AT's most AT's behave this way, case in point is the Rexton or the older Scorpio. And even the new Ford Endevour. When you floor the A pedal, it *WILL* drop a couple of gears.

People don't blame themselves for the situation they are in. What was the need to overtake when the gentleman saw a truck looming ahead and there was no space for all 3 cars? Who overtakes when a truck is coming at you?

Rest other issue/s appear genuine, but I fear, this was/is a driver error.

[rock18]

Sorry to hear about the troubles owner is facing. I personally own a Celerio AMT and has driven it close to 20000kms. So far the only problem i faced with AMT is, when going uphill or climbing a ramp. There i just switch over to manual and also use parking brake if i need to stop on an incline. Problem solved.
Even in terms of overtaking, there will be a slight 1-2sec delay but downshifts upto 2 gears to compensate and complete the overtaking maneuver.so all in all AMT is good.

I test drove TUV 300 84bhp AMT for almost 8-9kms, Only problem i managed to find in that short drive is that, it does not downshift as fast as AMT in Celerio.

Still i would side with the owner and advise Mahindra to fix the issue for the owner.

[ezee]

This is the root cause of jerks or speed variations at slow speeds.

As expressed by Abhinav from Faridabad

in first gear TUV is programmed to move at speed of 9kmph and in reverse at 7kmph without throttle input.

Now if a person wants to move at slower pace say @5kmph how it is supposed to be done. In order to achieve it what i do is keep on pressing brake to engage the clutch to slow down, but even with this it is not a constant speed it shoots up and then slows down.

Any better way to do it, plz suggest

In manual vehicles, we use various ratios of clutch to achieve this and thus have a constant speed. In TUV one more problem is 0--->9 kmph reaches very quickly, it is good in open highways but in close corners it is stressful due to variation in speed.

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by ezee

This is the root cause of jerks or speed variations at slow speeds.

As expressed by Abhinav from Faridabad

in first gear TUV is programmed to move at speed of 9kmph and in reverse at 7kmph without throttle input.

Now if a person wants to move at slower pace say @5kmph how it is supposed to be done. In order to achieve it what i do is keep on pressing brake to engage the clutch to slow down, but even with this it is not a constant speed it shoots up and then slows down.

Any better way to do it, plz suggest

In manual vehicles, we use various ratios of clutch to achieve this and thus have a constant speed. In TUV one more problem is 0--->9 kmph reaches very quickly, it is good in open highways but in close corners it is stressful due to variation in speed.

That is the creep function and its extremely useful in traffic to avoid burning you clutch. I'm extremely fond of it as in stop-n-go traffic, all you need to do is modulate the brakes and the clutch a bit to keep the vehicle moving. In the Ecosport, it works even upto 3rd gear and on inclines, is a boon since you can avoid using the gas pedal completely until the vehicle gets moving.

It does take a bit of getting used to. But i totally agree with the posts above, that for all such features one must take time to understand the feature well and the utility of it. An AMT is never going to match the versatility of the MT in the hands of a good driver. As experienced by Rock18, each manufacturers AMT is bound to work differently. I think the manufacturers must start specifying a break-in period with speed limits like in the past. It gives the drivers a great feel of their vehicle through the complete range of rpms / gears before they break free and go nuts!

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by ezee

in first gear TUV is programmed to move at speed of 9kmph and in reverse at 7kmph without throttle input.

Now if a person wants to move at slower pace say @5kmph how it is supposed to be done. In order to achieve it what i do is keep on pressing brake to engage the clutch to slow down, but even with this it is not a constant speed it shoots up and then slows down.

Any better way to do it, plz suggest

In manual vehicles, we use various ratios of clutch to achieve this and thus have a constant speed. In TUV one more problem is 0--->9 kmph reaches very quickly, it is good in open highways but in close corners it is stressful due to variation in speed.

This is the exact same thing I highlighted to one of my friend who was interested in AMT vehicles for city traffic and I asked him - today you manage using your clutch pedal, 1st and 2nd gear, accelerator and brake.

I asked him "suppose I take away the clutch pedal and force you to change the gears based on pre-programmed speeds, can you manage with only accelerator and brakes?" He had a blank look.

Then I told him about Hydraulic box automatics and CVT automatics and how they offer infinitesimal control over speed which can mimic manual transmission with partial clutch but the same cannot be achieved by AMT and DCT and DSG. These will always be jerky and prone to "computer's interpretation of what the driver desires"

eZee, a question for you and all the others who have plonked in their money with AMTs/DCTs/DSGs (TUV or any other makes): did you not do test drive before purchasing the vehicle - trying to simulate the usual conditions one encounters in his drive?



Edit: 9 kmph creep forward and 7 kmph creep reverse is TOOOOOO high.
It should be set at slower than walking speed (say 1 or 2 kmph). If someone wants more speed - he has all the means to press the accelerator pedal - doesn't he?

[ezee]

Originally Posted by LoneRidder

I don't agree this as a problem in the TUV. All AMTs are designed to be this way. As a driver, one it should be more responsible on how his or her vehicle would behave on different situations before venturing into serious manoeuvres. There is big difference in driving a hatch, a sedan or SUV or even one vehicle to other.

I am afraid to say, some of the AMT users should seriously know the vehicle before making serious ventures. After all TUV is a heavy vehicle. I know good number of AMT guys who are doing really good!

Replied by Sharad Tater from Mumbai:

Most of the TUV AMT buyers are firt time AMT buyers. many of them graduated directly from a manual hatchback or sedans. How is one expected to know about his vehicle or AMT? dealer's sales person or the person who gives demo of all the features only tells you how to start the car, shift to manual or automatic. At the most one will tell you that the car will skip few gears based on the pressure on A pedal to provide you with quick acceleration. So the most logical option left is user manual. There is no seperate user manual for AMT, its the same and all it mentions, how to park on incline or decline, and use mannual mode for mountains.

AMTs simply cannot be driven like MT. The vehicle uses lot of sensors and and the owner should first get used to it before venturing into sharp overtakes. When pressing the break, at 30-40 kms, obviously it should down shift, this should be done even on MT. However, if the vehicle comes to lower speed, to extract the extra torque you either shift down to quick surge or press accelerator and over a period of time the vehicle gathers momentum in MT. In AMT as the torque is decided by the sensors, for quick surge of power, at lower speed the vehicle will down shift. The above issue is purely how any AMT should function.

For kind information, the RPM range of 2nd gear is from 900 to 2500 below or above which gear shift happens by AMT based on the A pedal input. max/best torque and speed combination is available in 3rd and 4th gears. If a user is driving in 3rd gear, why AMT should downshift on increased pressure on A pedal, what does it achieves? slowing down the vehicle and contradicting the driver's intentions and calculations. Most of the hatchbacks and sedan give big range in 3rd gear to make city drive more comfortable. The downshiting is accepted in the highest gear where power / torque band is very limited and downshifting is must to provide more torque. Further shifting from 2nd to 1st gear is purely programming error and there is just no sense or logic in it.

[LoneRidder]

Originally Posted by ezee

Replied by Sharad Tater from Mumbai:

Most of the TUV AMT buyers are firt time AMT buyers. many of them graduated directly from a manual hatchback or sedans. How is one expected to know about his vehicle or AMT?

This answers it all, "How is one expected to know about a vehicle or AMT", did he real mean this?. I am sorry, this is very childish, I am serious, if he is still driving, he should immediately stop!

There is something called 'getting used to' a vehicle. Its not a days affair. As I mentioned earlier every vehicle is different, forget models, within model itself. Some learn it quick some take time based on each individuals ability.

Originally Posted by ezee

Replied by Sharad Tater from Mumbai:
For kind information, the RPM range of 2nd gear is from 900 to 2500 below or above which gear shift happens by AMT based on the A pedal input. max/best torque and speed combination is available in 3rd and 4th gears. If a user is driving in 3rd gear, why AMT should downshift on increased pressure on A pedal, what does it achieves?

RPM ranges are always overlapping. Sorry to use hard language. When you are in 30~40 km range in traffic (quoting the situation from Sharad), you would not be pressing the A peddle to the floor. Suddenly (as described by Sharad) when he intend to speed ahead, when he floors, than the normal acceleration, the sensors gets the indication for need of higher torque and at 30~40 unless you go sedately for some distance you will not be about to pick up pace and torque, the only option is to downshift and then move to better gears. The vehicle has just done that.

This is purely the driving style. Its necessary to understand the vehicle better before venturing into quick manoeuvres. Its not limited to AMT but for any vehicle.

[ezee]

Originally Posted by LoneRidder

This answers it all, "How is one expected to know about a vehicle or AMT", did he real mean this?. I am sorry, this is very childish, I am serious, if he is still driving, he should immediately stop!

There is something called 'getting used to' a vehicle. Its not a days affair. As I mentioned earlier every vehicle is different, forget models, within model itself. Some learn it quick some take time based on each individuals ability.



RPM ranges are always overlapping. Sorry to use hard language. When you are in 30~40 km range in traffic (quoting the situation from Sharad), you would not be pressing the A peddle to the floor. Suddenly (as described by Sharad) when he intend to speed ahead, when he floors, than the normal acceleration, the sensors gets the indication for need of higher torque and at 30~40 unless you go sedately for some distance you will not be about to pick up pace and torque, the only option is to downshift and then move to better gears. The vehicle has just done that.

This is purely the driving style. Its necessary to understand the vehicle better before venturing into quick manoeuvres. Its not limited to AMT but for any vehicle.

Reply from Sharad

I am sorry to have sounded childish, but seriously I along with all my family members have heard of the term "getting used to" and we practice it too. I got the delivery of the vehicle on 29th November and I found the gear box painfully jerky and sluggish. Before I could practice getting used to this, I got my first engine knocking and truck like sound issue. In order to get used to it, twice I reached half day to office.

Since I was not able to practice getting used to any more, dropped the vehicle at workshop and dashed a mail to Mahindra. It took them two weeks to return the vehicle back but this time with completely different symptoms. This time my family could not get used to of violent jerks AMT produced. So taking it seriously again, dropped vehicle with Mahindra.

Two weeks later, got the vehicle with new AMT software, performance was good,*I was about to get used to it when engine knocking re-appeared again, after keeping it with them for a week, again I got new ECU flash. This made the box lethargic again. I again took my time to unlearn what ever was known about the car and here Mr. John from Mahindra R&D lands at my car's service without invitation.

Mr. John finds, my car's clutch has developed a play say out of range by 30 points, immediately then and there he corrects the calibration and my car is behaving completely new, the creep is so aggressive, it gives exercise to my abdominal muscles. RPM manipulation gets introduced for the first time, but since I have a 8 MM thick matting which does not let the A pedal touch the floor, there is no way I could practice getting used to of AMT downshifting to give more power. Still I try my best to get used to of TUV so aggressively moving ahead without even A pedal input. And not breaking a sweat even with B pedal input.

Since I can't get used to, I leave it again with Mahindra, who this time notices the matting, removes it and also discovers that this time my brake pedal sensor has few seconds delay, also works around creep function. The car is given back to me, and been a month I am trying to get used to of these features, in the process have had my bumper scratched and dislocated.

During a joint test drive, I showed it to Mahindra that all the features kick in randomly, which means not in all gear shifts RPM and speed is managed, TUV does not downshifts each time the A pedal is pressed fully, it happens most of the time but not always, so how do I practice getting used to of this AMT box? Verbally I was explained that software decides based on the gear you are in, RPMs being clocked, engine temperature and exact position / pressure on A pedal.

I felt it was too much for anyone to get used to without having a pilot's license or say without knowing exact mathematical algorithm or the logic written *in the transmission software upgrade. Currently though I have 3 family members who hold driving license, its only I who drive TUV300 due to these unique, random features which gets added or removed in each ECU flash

Even if I go for 1500+ km road trip, it is only I who can / will drive as, if in 6 months of ownership, I still haven't got used to of this AMT box,*others however fast adaptors they may be will not be able to get a hang of it. That's why I have asked for list of these features, parameters like A pedal position, RPM, engine temp in which these features can kick in and I can start getting used to of these.

With such a document, may be my wife or brother too will be able to practice the term getting used to and will be able to share my load. All this getting used to after paying 11 Lacs is painful though, seriously

[humyum]

Okay, let me decipher some things for you folks from what I understand

1) Petrol cars can afford to have slower creep speeds since they rev higher, the gearing can be short and still the car can achieve respectable speeds in 1st gear when given the whack.

2) Diesels since they rev less and have high torques at lower rpms, the gearing is taller than petrols to compensate for the lower rpms to which they will rev, that is why the creep function in say a Celerio is much more manageable and even fun/good/amazing to have then compared to say a TUV in which the 1st gear takes you all the way till 9 kmph ( I don't know what speeds does Celerio reach in 1st gear when the creep function is on)

3) To counter this, Tata has done a Fantastic Job with the Zest Diesel AMT, no creep at all. Takes away the trouble of constantly fighting the brakes in traffic ( Although the car can roll back if on a slope). Secondly it behaves like like how an Activas throttle input would behave, if the Rev's rise above a certain rpm, the clutch engages and the car moves forward. Perfect for a Diesel AMT.

4) I feel Mahindra needs to remove the creep function in the AMT TUV's. That should sort this traffic problem for starters.

Rest of the problems I have already mentioned my hypothesis on.