[Ravich]

This might be an already discussed topic but I could not find anything specific to the safety issue.

I came across a BMW 3 Series F30 whose engine stalled in a very mildly water logged housing society compound . I do know the air intake is so low in a BMW F30, that it is very easy for water to reach the air intake to cause hydrostatic lock in the shallowest of waters. This is not about that.

This is to understand why the auto transmission shift lever logic has been designed not to allow shift from PARK position to Neutral when engine is off. In this instance , the car had stalled right in the middle of the drive way and could not be started . It had to be left there for two days as it could not be put in neutral to be moved. A mechanic from BMW authorised workshop came over and did the Auto Transmission Emergency Park release procedure by jacking up the car, removing the splash shield and turning the release screw using an Allen key. It was terrifying to see him lie under the car to do this with the car on a cheap jack , and when a few cars had to pass through on the side. I understand the flatbed is yet to arrive to shift the vehicle to the garage.

I shudder at what would happen if this had happened on a narrow water logged lane in Mumbai or on the high way in the fast lane . I am referring to the risks for the mechanic or the owner/driver having to lie down under the car in such a situation.

My questions :

1. What were BMW thinking when they designed this? Especially when manual transmission 3 series can be put in neutral with the engine off (?). I recall the E90 had a simple override procedure in such cases.
2. Should BMW not communicate this very clearly to prospective buyers?
3. Should the Indian motor homologation regulators not demand this should be fixed ?
4. Are there some scenarios where allowing the ability to put it in neutral with the engine off , pose greater risks ?
5. Do other German or European cars have this restriction ( DSG in Skoda )? - I have never tried this in any of these cars.
6. Am I exaggerating the risks of injury ( leave alone the trouble it causes to the owners) ?

Thanks in advance

[the_skyliner]

I guess the restriction to shift to neutral is probably to avoid towing with all wheels on ground in case of a breakdown and ensure that the car is moved using a flat bed or rear wheels lifted.

This is to save the transmission from getting damaged as there won't be enough lubrication as the engine will be switched off.

However, your concern is very much valid, especially in our country where narrow roads with water clogging is quite common in monsoon.

Also, the risk of injury in case of breakdown in fast lane is much more serious than transmission failure due to wrong method of moving/towing the vehicle.

They should have provided an easy override option along with some warning note making the driver aware of risk of gearbox failure in case of towing for longer distance.

[Ravich]

Originally Posted by the_skyliner

I guess the restriction to shift to neutral is probably to avoid towing with all wheels on ground in case of a breakdown and ensure that the car is moved using a flat bed or rear wheels lifted.

This is to save the transmission from getting damaged as there won't be enough lubrication as the engine will be switched off.
.

Thanks. I understand the risk of damage to the auto transmission as the fluid does not circulate. However how does a tortuous and unsafe procedure to release the PARK, prevent the possibility of the vehicle being rolled after it is released this way? Is the assumption that whoever knows the procedure to release it will ensure it is moved on a flatbed truck? Or am i missing something?

I don't know what BMW F30 owners stalled on Mumbai Pune expressway do. I have driven the E90 in all kinds of weather and never worried . With the F30 I would be worried about the battery dying (or worse, hydro lock) while on the highway and having to leave the car dead on the fast lane waiting to be hit, till a new battery or the flatbed arrives !

[Jaggu]

I thought BMW had an easier way to slot in Neutral (video below). Our office driver was even demo'ed this by BMW. i guess it is not applicable to all models, strange why they made such a complicated approach and that too from under the chassis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VeyhBGOO78

Again it seems it can be unlocked in situations where engine can be turned.
file:///D:/Downloads/GA8HP%20unlock%203.pdf

Unlock transmission lock electronically
Step on the brake during the entire ulocking procedure.
The transmission lock can only be unlocked as long as the starter audibly and evenly
turns, but the engine is not running.
To prevent the engine from starting during a turning starter, the fuel pump fuse can be
pulled if necessary. See fuse box installation location

Overview of luggage compartment
1. Step on the brake pedal.
2. Press start/stop button.
Starter turns for about 20 seconds.
3. Press unlock button 1, arrow 1, and hold pressed during the entire unlocking.
4. Move selector lever to the N position for at least 4 seconds. An acoustic signal or a
text message is output, depending on the vehicle.
5. Move the selector lever back to its initial setting.
6. Move the selector lever to position N again briefly and then move back to the initial
setting.
7. Release unlock button. The display on the selector lever shows N.
The transmission lock is now unlocked.
8. Take foot off brake pedal.
The starter stops turning. The vehicle can now be rolled.
The transmission lock is unlocked for approx. 15 minutes. The unlocking of the
transmission lock extends by approx. 15 minutes for every detected rotational
movement of the vehicle. The exact duration of the unlocking depends on the state of
charge of the vehcile battery.

[Turbanator]

A mechanic from BMW authorised workshop came over and did the Auto Transmission Emergency Park release procedure by jacking up the car, removing the splash shield and turning the release screw using an Allen key.

Just rechecked with my contact here, unfortunately, this is the only way on F30. Definitely not logical especially for a country like ours but even overseas, what will happen to the car if this is pulled by emergency services say in case Car is blocking any road or otherwise.

[androdev]

I drove my 520d over a stone and experienced this stupid feature in all its glory. The car broke down and AT died in P mode at 530am on a hill station road and the all the king's horses and men could not budge the car to flatbed it. Finally a BMW mechanic reached the spot at 9pm in heavy rain to disarm the nuclear bomb. I had the sense to stop by the side of the road at the first sign of trouble, could have easily got stuck in the middle of the road.

[GTO]

It is incredibly stupid. They should have given a manual override. Forget a breakdown, even if your battery dies down, you are effectively stuck in 'park'. But then, that's the bane of many modern cars. My bhabhi's Grand i10 with keyless start & go went into coma due to the Mumbai floods. Now, since the car wouldn't even enter 'ignition on' mode (it was completely dead), the steering was locked in position and couldn't be released. We tried with a spare battery, but that didn't work either. At such a time, you really miss the good old manual stuff.

For those who are curious about the complicated procedure, here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C-eA8UPgkI

[Ravich]

Originally Posted by GTO

It is incredibly stupid. They should have given a manual override.
...

Mercedes seems to be very sensible . The attached extract from the C Class manual describes the procedure that is very similar to what E90 had.

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Ravich

Mercedes seems to be very sensible . The attached extract from the C Class manual describes the procedure that is very similar to what E90 had.

Not really. The newer Mercedes cars have the gear shift lever on the steering column. I suspect there is no way to put it in neutral if you are stuck in P.

Mercedes tech bulletin:

If you receive customer reports in the above model vehicles that the vehicle cannot be released from the “P” position despite Direct Select lever actuation, this can be due to a missing CAN signal from either the ESP or the steering column switch/control module.

When possible always start by processing any fault/event codes as per the test steps in Star Diagnosis and repair accordingly. When the situation requires that the vehicle must be moved, the “N” position can often be selected using SDS with SW version 8/05 or later. In such cases, using Star Diagnosis after entering all of the necessary vehicle information, please follow the path: Control units Drive ISM Actuations Move Transmission into Neutral position. Then follow the guided steps after observing the safety precautions listed in Star Diagnosis.

If the above steps fail to release the vehicle from position “P”, MBUSA has introduced a new Special Tool, (W164 589 03 63 00 Free Wheeling Adapter), which will allow the vehicle to be easily moved when the transmission is locked in park.

This Adapter is freely rotating wheel hub. Remove rear wheels, put the hubs, fix the wheels back. Basically the transmission is locked 100%.

Carry a pair of roller skates and put the baby on the skates

PS: Mods, please merge my posts, was late to post the update.

[Ravich]

Originally Posted by androdev

...
Mercedes tech bulletin:
...
This Adapter is freely rotating wheel hub. Remove rear wheels, put the hubs, fix the wheels back. Basically the transmission is locked 100%.

Carry a pair of roller skates and put the baby on the skates

I want to double check if this is some cruel joke by BMW on Mercedes !
Seriously what do you think are the arguments against allowing putting the transmission in neutral when the engine is off after suitable warnings in the settings when you do this? After all the only thing at risk would be the transmission getting damaged if you dont use a flat bed in such a situation. The manufacturer and insurance company can turn down any responsibility for consequential damages.
Why shouldn't the Indian homologation regulators not demand BMW, Mercedes RWD/AWD Automatics to fix the vehicle computer to allow this?
Am I missing something in the hazard analysis scenarios ?
If any one should raise this issue, who better than a responsible, informed community such as team-bhp ?

[jinojohnt]

There is only one reason that I can think of - The manufacturer doesn't want to lose business by the customer calling a road-side mechanic even to push a stuck car.

[GTO]

There's another reason why this is incredibly stupid. Let's say your car broke down in a flood. How would the mechanic go underneath the car to engage neutral? With a snorkel??? This happened to someone last week.

[M00M]

I think even my CRV has this where you cant move it from P to N when the engine is off but there is a shift lock button next to it which frankly have never needed to use till date. Will check the same and revert but i think all new age AT dont have this tech to engage N without switching the engine on and i agree this should be possible due to issues like water logging.

Interesting thread, when we thought we almost new everything about our cars, we learn something more.

[sumeethaldankar]

In case of modern cars with the rotary knob type transmission shift what happens if the car battery goes dead? Will one not be able to shift to neutral if the battery/engine dies on the road?

[prasadee]

Originally Posted by Ravich

Seriously what do you think are the arguments against allowing putting the transmission in neutral when the engine is off after suitable warnings in the settings when you do this?

People forget hand brakes all the time. Or they do not engage it well enough. Or, they brakes could be worn. Automatically switching to park is the safest way to leave a car when engine is turned off. Imagine a car parked up a hill or a steep driveway.

Originally Posted by GTO

There's another reason why this is incredibly stupid. Let's say your car broke down in a flood. How would the mechanic go underneath the car to engage neutral? With a snorkel??? This happened to someone last week.

Newer cars go to completely disabled mode for way too many reasons. Euros need a flat bed even when sensors in the transmission go bad. Seems logical for an engineer - ECU thinks transmission has gone bad, do not allow any operations including shift to Park. But practically and in terms of maintenance, it makes no sense. My brother had this issue with his BMW parked in his clean garage with fine rubber flooring. When fancy garage has no room for the mechanic to get down there, a lot of contortion and gymnastics skills are needed to do this stupid procedure. When he is cribbing with his clean garage, I can imagine the plight of the mechanic in a flooded apartment basement.