Team-BHP - A close look at Ford's new 1.5L 3-cylinder Dragon Petrol Engine

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan (Post 4293165)

The top contenders for the most refined 3 pot petrol's I have experienced starts from the good old Maruti Suzuki 800 and the Nissan Micra. The latter is possibly class leading in terms of refinement.

I agree on the M800, having owned one for good 11 years in the past. However, I am surprised about the Micra. My friend owned one and I have traveled, driven it on a couple of occasions. While the low end response was very good, the engine was very loud. I remember asking him if it was a diesel when the car was cranked for the first time. The shake and cranking sound was high.

There's a Micra in my apartment complex and it sounds like a Mahindra Maximo pick up while cranking up. And yes it a petrol Micra too. I compare it with Maximo as it is a smooth sounding pick up (also frequently comes to my apartment to deliver water). Not sure if both the cars had engine issues as the one owned by my friend was a year/5k km old.

Sorry for going OT.
Regarding the Dragon engine, I surprised by the torque curve of this engine. From my past/present experience with 3-cyl engines, they tend to have very poor low end torque. I also love refinement and thus, would wait for a proper TD or detailed review before turning a fan of this engine.

BTW, the old 1.5L engine wasn't economical at all. I have heard Ecosport users getting 8-10 kmpl in city usage, that too for a manual car. If this is 7% more economical, I don't find it any way better than its predecessor.lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 4293663)

All things being equal, I'd never buy a 3-cylinder over a more balanced 4. Most of the 3s are simply not as refined as the silky smooth 4s (and there are so many of them).

You are absolutely right. But in this segment (C-SUV) which one would you buy? Nexon and Ecosport now have 3 cylinders. Maruti is not willing to bring its 1.5 engine back to India. The, you are only left with WR-V and if you are willing to consider the i20 Active and Etios cross.

A superb and a very technical report I must say. Loved reading and understanding every bit of it. Thank you bblost for sharing. Rating it a full 5 stars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 4293663)

All things being equal, I'd never buy a 3-cylinder over a more balanced 4. Most of the 3s are simply not as refined as the silky smooth 4s (and there are so many of them).

I agree with you GTO and for me too, a 3 pot engine will always negate a major. Indeed, my very first reaction to the title of this report did raise me the question: "Why 3-cylinder? Must be something of an economy grade attempt."

But I do see Ford has significantly put innovation in the NVH/vibration department as well with atleast 4 technologies to dampen this, vis.:

- Metal front cover
- Balancer shaft with hydrodynamic bearings
- Oil soaked timing belt(industry's first)
- Hydraulic tappets and rotor driven rocker arm

That said, it'll be interesting to see how balanced and refined will this motor feel when at idle revs and while turning on/off the aircon or wonder the opened driver's door dancing. Who knows if this motor is there to set a new 3-cylinder benchmark in the industry.

Another important thing to note will be the recommended service intervals and overall engine reliability in the long run with oil dipped timing belt(and not the chain). Thanks.

Cheers!

Hope the engine belt in oil will be reliable this time - Hope Ford learned enough from the 1.8L Lynx TDCi engines which had belts snapped even before 50K miles. There are a lot of Ford Transits in Uk which suffered from premature timing belt snap for similar "Belt in Oil". Ford seems to have put belt in oil in engines from 2007 onwards. The thing with Transit is you have to take out the engine from engine bay to replace the belt! The suggested belt life is 125K miles in UK conditions - Worried how it will hold in the stop-go and high temperature Indian situation.

I think the Ecoboost engine is also having the belt in oil technology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 4293663)

You can say that again - loads of 3 cylinders around us. I think manufacturers are banking on the fact that the average consumer cares about engine size, power & FE, but isn't technically inclined to bother with the number of cylinders.

All things being equal, I'd never buy a 3-cylinder over a more balanced 4. Most of the 3s are simply not as refined as the silky smooth 4s (and there are so many of them).

BMW sells 318i here in Australia with believe it or not, a 1.5 liter 3 cylinder turbo petrol with 134 bhp! Yes a so called sports saloon with a 1.5 3 cylinder!

That said I dont mind a 3 cylinder if it is refined and efficient enough. 500cc is the perfect swept capacity for a single cylinder for best combination of performance and economy as per the people who know this stuff. It will be interesting to see how good (or bad?) this engine would be. Honda's 1.5 is still the benchmark and has been one for more than a decade in India when it comes to petrol engines but then again, they are the master's of ICE, especially petrol's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sriramr9 (Post 4293434)

Bigger displacement size has also been maintained despite trend of downsizing is popular with competition.

True that. The larger displacement might help with better throttle response and load. We will have to wait for real world economy numbers. Fuel economy is still a Japanese ruled domain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 4293663)

Don't leave out the 3-cylinder diesel under the Grand i10's hood. Very impressive.

Not surprised. Even the age old Accent 3 pot had excellent refinement levels for its time. Hyundai have nailed it when it comes to diesel engine refinement. I bet the first Elantra we got will rival some diesels today when it comes to refinement and noise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashis89 (Post 4293709)

the old 1.5L engine wasn't economical at all.

Surprised by your observations on the Nissan. The petrol 3 pot is superb. We do not hear much about it as the car itself hardly sells.

Torque has never been a problem for most 3 pots.

On economy, the Ecoboost isn't great either but then most turbo petrol's suffer from this. Driven right, they are economical. Go even slightly aggressive on gas and all the fuel you saved while driving in economy mode goes for a toss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 4293663)

All things being equal, I'd never buy a 3-cylinder over a more balanced 4. Most of the 3s are simply not as refined as the silky smooth 4s (and there are so many of them).

+1

I would rather say, none of the 3 Cylinders available in our market today, can match even a basic 4 Cylinder in refinement.

Even though some very advanced 3 Cylinders may be at 90% of the refinement of a 4Cyl, but that remaining 10% deficiency will keep scratching on the back of your mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan (Post 4293876)

My experience with Nissan 3-pot petrol is just the opposite.

Similarly, my experience of the low end response from 3-pot engines is very poor.

For the FE part, I was comparing the existing 1.5L, 4-cyl petrol in the Ecosport which is known to return 8-10 kmpl in the city. The release note from the manufacturer says the new 1.5L 3-cyl engine would be 7% more fuel efficient. Now, a 7% improvement over 9 kmpl is hardly any better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashis89 (Post 4294064)

Similarly, my experience of the low end response from 3-pot engines is very poor.

What about the low end grunt of the M800? I owned one for 12 years, and its low end was better than the F10 WagonR I bought after it. I am specifically referring to the first 3 gears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan (Post 4293876)

Surprised by your observations on the Nissan. The petrol 3 pot is superb. We do not hear much about it as the car itself hardly sells.

Torque has never been a problem for most 3 pots.

The Nissan's 3 Cyl is mediocre at best, in my honest opinion. :)
One of my neighbors owns this rare breed, and I drive it sometimes.

You are correct on the torque part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashis89 (Post 4294064)

My experience with Nissan 3-pot petrol is just the opposite.

Similarly, my experience of the low end response from 3-pot engines is very poor.

Ashish Bhaina,
Theoretically, a 3 Cyl of the same displacement as a 4 Cyl, has the capability to produce more torque at lesser rpms, making them 'feel' torquier.

However, a lot depends on actual tuning, and bore x stroke of the engine.
Because of this, MSIL's 3 Cyl motors feel lethargic and jerky at low rpms.

Excellent pics and a very informative report indeed!

As a layman (in TBHP :)) let me express a doubt: What are the benefits one can expect from an oil-bathed timing belt? Or are they using a metal belt?

I very much understood the benefits of a timing chain mated with an oil sump, but a chain is made of metal. AFAIK, modern timing belts and drive belts are made with polymers and embedded with kevlar or other similar material as reinforcement. None of them requires any lubrication on belt surface and in fact, the presence of oil can even reduce the life expectancy of these. This is very true in the case of rubber.

The said belt in the upcoming Ford engine could be made of some exotic -read expensive to replace - new material? Just my thoughts.stupid:

Quote:

Originally Posted by vnabhi (Post 4294096)

What about the low end grunt of the M800? I owned one for 12 years, and its low end was better than the F10 WagonR I bought after it. I am specifically referring to the first 3 gears.

Even we had one for 11 years, 82k kms. And yes, it was one of the best engines. The MPFi unit of the Alto was even better than the 800 (I have driven both of them frequently and alternately). But then they were lighter cars too which could be helping the cause to certain extent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abhishek46 (Post 4294108)

You are correct on the torque part.

Micra engine is definitely torquey and feels good to drive in the city. But from what I remember, the engine doesn't like to be revved too high.

Quote:

I am no mechanical engineer and hence, I will take your word for it.:)
My experience with 3-cyl engines are limited to the M800, Alto, Micra, WagonR k10 (current ride), Accent CRDi and Matiz. The Accent was a beast but can't say the same about others.

The EcoBoost 3 cylinder has impeccable refinement. Especially from within the car, there is no way that one can know that its a 3 pot. The sound of the engine from outside is different since it is a Turbocharged motor. And while it does have some lag, it never is a problem in the city traffic. Personally i like that i don't have to control the power in the stop and go traffic.

Since the new dragon shares a lot of tech from the Ecoboost motor, I expect a lot of refinement characters to be similar. The only difference would be the lower peak torque and at higher RPMs

Mod note: Please avoid Quoting entire large post for short replies. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abhishek46 (Post 4294108)

The Nissan's 3 Cyl is mediocre at best, in my honest opinion. :)
=================
Because of this, MSIL's 3 Cyl motors feel lethargic and jerky at low rpms.

Agreed, I had the old Gen Alto K10, you have to change gears at lower speed. I stalled it many times in second gear when I was still getting used to the car.

The Dragon is based on the EcoBoost. In that respect it would have been enlightening to know the changes, and why.

There were rumours that Ford was experimenting with cylinder cutoff. On a 3 pot that would be something. Anyone know more. (And if true, I think I know why it's called the Dragon engine!)

Lots of discussion on the 'for the first time' oil immersed timing belt. What about the EcoBoost? (And even that was not the first.) Missing something here.

Regards
Sutripta