[ansumaan]

Originally Posted by amalji

The AMTs on the K10 engine works really well when it works. I've driven the Celerio AMT on the same engine extensively and I prefer that any day over the Nissan Micra CVT which is technically much more superior.

Here, the problem seems to be related to the durability of the kit. Regardless, I have 2 of my friends using AMTs and none of them have faced issues till now. One car is 2 years old and the other one is 9 months old. Both are Celerio AMTs with K10 engine. Both my friends love the AMT experience as well.

My wife owns a Celerio AMT . We have driven it 13k km in last 16 months. The experience is quite good & no issues so far . Yes I had experienced the judder in very low speed in stop go traffic . But I think that's the engine characteristic . I am bit scared after hearing the jumping behavior .

[kvish]

Satya,

I echo your feelings too. I had mentioned this in my ownership report of the celerio as well. The AMT behaviour is not predictable. Its a mind game all the time.

My car is back after the 36 month service and the result is as unpredictable as the AMT itself

1. I told the service station that I will not come to this workshop if the jerking problem is not resolved. They said they have an SOP where they will update the software of the AMT etc.
Surprise 1: They said that the test indicated clutch wear and tear. It is hardly 15K kms. The clutch of an AMT is supposed to last much longer than a manual car (as per the SA).
The extended warranty is over and they want me to pay up!
Surprise 2: I had complained about this in all my services in the past. In my service history, there is no mention of the jerking problem in my service history. Even though it was on the job card.

Result of the SOP:
The RPMs are much higher now, so the AMT shifts at higher RPM (fuel efficiency is a bummer). But jerks are slightly reduced and shifts are smoother. The tradeoff for higher rpm is that sometimes on second gear even on creep it goes at 30kmph! There is a time when the car wouldnt move and then lunges forward. It is a bit scary.

I will wait for some more time and put my observations. I am contemplating changing my car at this stage :( I have never changed cars before 10 years.

[Sparky]

Originally Posted by vsathyap

I may walk in sometime next week if phones are still busy/not reachable.

Please keep us updated about any solution you get, eagerly waiting for it. Last time, I took printout of solution given by Audioholic to my SA and got the Clutch Set changed.

Originally Posted by ansumaan

But I think that's the engine characteristic.

Its not the engine characteristics, its the problem left unattended by Maruti. Time to wake up and let Maruti know of it. I think there are many other who take jerking as characteristics of AMT or Engine, because the service centers make you believe so.

Originally Posted by kvish

Satya,
I am contemplating changing my car at this stage :( I have never changed cars before 10 years.

Same thought crossed my mind today morning. Considering long term issues after warranty, I though it would be wise to change it around 3 years / 30-40k.

[ansumaan]

Originally Posted by Sparky

Its not the engine characteristics, its the problem left unattended by Maruti. Time to wake up and let Maruti know of it. I think there are many other who take jerking as characteristics of AMT or Engine, because the service centers make you believe so.

Ok Thanks. Will put it to the SA during the 15 K service .

[vsathyap]

Quick update on the situation:

I've been trying to reach my SA over the past week to know if there was any feedback from Maruti. I finally spoke to him a couple of days ago and he told me that there was no update from Maruti about this issue. So, he will talk to his senior tech people and I may have to bring in the car to the service center in a day or two, based on when the technical person is available at the service center. This is Sagar Automobiles at Bannerghatta road, Bangalore.

I will update this thread next when there is a proper update from the service center guys / Maruti themselves, i.e., when something gets done.

[vsathyap]

Update:

So, I took my car to Sagar Automobiles last week and explained the problem to the SA again. He referred me to a senior person on the floor - who again redirected me to a technical person. This technical person made me take the car for a spin within the premises and asked me to demonstrate what was happening. I quickly showed him the jump, judder and the turbo reverse. He seemed kind of arrogant and didnt say anything while I was talking to him all the time. He asked me to get down and took the car into the workshop.

Five minutes later, he brings it back and tells me to try again and they have "fixed" the problem. I take it for a quick spin within the premises again - with him sitting next to me - and nothing seemed to have changed. I was quite displeased at this apparent 5 minute "quick fix" and told him clearly that they needed to check the problem in detail.

So, again, without talking, off he goes and asks me to meet the senior person who I had met earlier. I go and meet this senior and talk to him about the problem and my SA is next to him. After 5 minutes, he asks the SA to take it up on a job card. The SA then creates a job card and tells me I will get the car only by the end of the next day.

Moving on to the next day, I call up the SA to check and confirm whether the problem has been fixed. He's not very clear on the phone and asks me to come in the morning to collect the car. So, day 3 and I go to the workshop and call up my SA. He comes and tells me that the clutch issue has been fixed and that he needs a few more hours time to fix some apparent "speedometer sensor" problem that cropped up. This seemed a little fishy to me and I asked him again whether the clutch issue was fixed, to which he replied incoherently that they have addressed the issue. He didn't talk about any replacement of parts being done, and tried to change the topic to the speedometer sensor issue and told me they don't have the spare part for that now and that I needed to pick the car up in the evening.

I was quite cross by now (specially since I had to take time from work and spend a few hundred rupees on Auto charges for my commute to the service station) and clearly told the SA that I want the car to be ready by evening. Evening of day 3 and I reach Sagar Automobiles again (after spending again on Auto fare!) and the SA comes to me and tells me that the speedo thing is fixed and the clutch is ready. I asked him again if anything was replaced and he again was incoherent about the entire thing.

Now, he says that the billing system is hung and that I should collect the invoice later (or he would mail it to my address) to which I said I will wait for the invoice to be generated - I clearly wanted to see what works they would mention on the invoice so that its recorded in the system correctly. Once I said that I will wait for the invoice, he went in and came back after a few minutes and said that the clutch works carried out will not be printed in the invoice (which was quite surprising to me). Now, he also adds that he had forgotten to mention that there was a puncture in the front tyre and that they will generate an invoice only for the puncture. This was again surprising to me since I just got the wheels balanced and aligned 2 days back and got the correct air pressure filled (and the puncture seemed rather improbable)
but one never knows - a puncture may happen to any one at anytime. Anyways, I was more interested in the Clutch side of things. On asking them why they are not including the clutch details in the invoice, he said that the "replacement" was done internally within Maruti and Sagar and nothing about it involves the customer - so the customer doesn't see anything on the invoice. His body language while saying this didn't inspire any confidence in me.

This raised my eyebrows and I was sure something was amiss. They were probably 'trying to pull a fast one on me' I thought - but I held on to my judgement till I drove the car around. So, Fast forward 2 hours and I get an invoice for a "repair of a punctured tyre" and the amount was 117 (which I paid).

So, finally I get to my car and drove it and immediately I could replicate the jump-start. I was not happy and asked the SA what work was done. He insisted that the replacement was done and that I should drive the car around a few KM to notice the difference. Anyways, since it was already late and I was supposed to go out later, I took the car home.

On the drive back the car felt a little different (I wouldn't say better - just different). The gearing ratio felt different (the AMT didn't slot into 2nd till the speedo hit 20kmph) and due to this, there was no apparent juddering felt. Also, there was a lot of clutch gurgling sound earlier - this was gone now. On the drive back home, the car did not have a smooth feeling - just that the juddering and vibrations were gone. However, the camel like head bob continued to happen when the clutch engaged and disengaged after slow speed gear changes. The reverse gear still has a turbo mode to it and it pulls like no tomorrow!

On another day a strange thing happened. I had parked the car for sometime for a temple visit and when I came back and engaged reverse gear to remove it from parking, the entire car juddered and shook violently. I quickly checked to see if I had enabled the handbrake, but I had not. I switched off the car and got down to see if there was something obstructing the wheels like a brick / stone and the caris struggling to ride over it - Nothing. I then got a doubt whether traffic police had put some wheel lock and if that lock was hitting the car when I wanted to move - still nothing. Now, I started the car again and put it in 1D mode and let go of the brake pedal - again the massive judder and shudder and violent shaking. Now I was sure that the handbrake was not ON, nothing was obstructing the wheels - it was the clutch issue again. I now slotted into N and back into R - let the car creep and it went fine. No judder and shaking this time. I tried to recreate the effect again by slotting into D and let it creep - it went fine.

This new scenario has me a little worried. I am almost confident that the SA has not changed any clutch plates and hes just done some clutch overhauling of sorts. Also, the invoice didn't carry any mention of clutch related issues nor did it have the speedo sensor replacement being mentioned. All I got was a bill of 117 Rs for a tyre puncture.

Now, I am planning to take the car out for further extensive tests and will report back here on whether the juddering is solved or not. I may take a week to update the thread here since I want to test the vehicle in all scenarios - slow traffic, normal traffic, fast moving, etc.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by vsathyap

Update:

Now, I am planning to take the car out for further extensive tests and will report back here on whether the juddering is solved or not. I may take a week to update the thread here since I want to test the vehicle in all scenarios - slow traffic, normal traffic, fast moving, etc.

Its pretty evident that all they did was a TCM reset and they didnt touch the clutch at all. Better escalate this issue to the TSM and Maruti and demand a replacement of the clutch disc and cover together. That will give you peace for another 10k kms at least. This problem isnt being solved at all. Looks like I will do the same thing if the judder reappears. Its sad that Maruti have such incapable engineers who dont even recognise this as a problem and even after years of getting the K10 AMT, this problem has not yet been solved.

[vsathyap]

Quick update on the situation; Current Odo Reading: 20750 km

I've been driving the car in the usual manner over the past few weeks. Even did a quick highway trip (~ 500km) and back. After that highway trip, I feel that the AMT is more suited to highway driving with fewer gear changes rather than city driving where it has to work a lot LOT harder. The gear changes are precise - almost to a point that I felt it was reading my mind, specially while overtaking and I needed that extra grunt. I even got a very happy mileage of ~ 24kmpl on this short trip (AC on 100% with speeds between 80-95 kmph).

I have observed that in usual city driving, the juddering is not present now. Its probably because the gearing ratios are now changed and AMT slots into 2nd only when there is enough momentum built from the 1st gear. On the flip side, the car finds it difficult to move while making slow maneuvers like parking - it grunts and vibrates (no juddering - just that the engine feels like it will drop off its mounts) and then makes a move; almost as if someone kicked a lazy and lethargic person into action. I'm still not really happy about the entire experience - it's not smooth - a lot of shaking and vibrating in slow moving traffic is still there but the characteristic AMT judder is gone. Except for this 1-2 gear zone, the engine is almost always lugging in other gears since the AMT picks the higher gear very soon.

The camel ride-like head bobbing is reduced a bit when the AMT changes gears - its not as bad as it was before, but as I said... I'm not entirely convinced that things are fine, but they are just borderline acceptable. As soon as things go south - beyond that thin red line called "acceptability threshold", I'm taking the car back in to the service station.

Got My K10 AMT back from service (3y/30000km with an ODO reading of approx 25750km) and there is good news and there is bad news. The good news is that the turbo reverse has calmed down. Reversing is more relaxed and comfortable now.

The bad news is that the creep is somewhat becoming creepy and dangerous. The GB slips the clutch until a point after which it totally engages it (like immediately lifting your foot off the clutch pedal when you're half way off already) and the car surges ahead due to the built up revs while it was slipping the clutch.

The same behavior is seen (albeit to a milder degree) in second gear where it jumps the gun on fully clutching, post some slipping. When I do a panic brake in this situation, the car still is moving forward as applying the brakes starts the slipping process and it wont disengage the clutch until some threshold has reached. At this point the brakes bite hard and every time this happens, I glance at the rear view mirror to see if someone will rear-end me due to the sudden braking.

The throttle body was cleaned during service (the SA told me doing this will fix the sudden jerks and the horrible head-nods) and it did somewhat fix the problem, but just caused another set of problems with the crazy jumps and hard stops on clutching and declutching . I was also told that my steering assembly has a problem and needs to be fixed. It makes a light gad-gad (more of a tk tk) sound when the vehicle is off and the center-positioned steering is turned either side until it starts resisting the turn due to the engine being off. This was the way the SA demo'ed the problem to me.

I haven't had a chance to take the car for a re-visit yet to look at the AMT issue. As usual, the TCU was probably reprogrammed / reset during service and it was holding onto the second gear during turns and road humps, even at crawling 4-5kmph! A firm kickdown on the A pedal a few times whenever this behaviour was seen has made it more responsive and it flops down to 1st gear nicely when I slow down to a crawl now. Sadly, now, as I mentioned, the 1gear has a mind of its own and I need to get it checked soon. Plus, the gear changes (esp 1-2-3 and vice versa) have become more audible now post the service. The sound is very audible and I can almost empathize with the AMT unit trying hard under the hood - everytime it goes "kLattchakkk"!