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-   -   BMW X3 (F25) at 130,000 km - Spends 25% of its time in the workshop (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/technical-stuff/198604-bmw-x3-f25-130-000-km-spends-25-its-time-workshop-4.html)

My response to BMW was:

"Dear George

Thank you for the formal response.

This is standard fare just as was expected after my last conversation with you.

1) Why give a 6yrs 200,000kms warranty? When you are aware yourselves that the life and reliable performance of product manufactured by you is much less. I would have maybe accepted this in case the vehicle was outside warranty or if unreliable performance, need to keep spare second car and long times in service centre was explained to me in writting or even verbally with honour while I made the purchase.

2) Why should repairs under warranty take up 25% of the warranty period?

3) I had raised the same issue through dealer via sms and whatsapp 7 mths back and then given it another go after they spoke to assure me. I have records of the same.

4) The issues started at 94500kms itself not at 126000kms, and the car then was just 4 yrs old then not 6. The records indicate this. I had spoken to Mr. Melfoy of BMW Infinity motors earlier as well with the same request. He had then assured a 360 degree test which was being done would ensure reliability, but that has not been the case.

I hope you realize that if I go to courts then BMW also risks multiple other cases against it, should I win and of course I would claim damages for my effort as well in that case.

It is inconceivable that BMW actually believes that such time frames are valid. Maybe this is true only for India. Am sure the courts would ask you if this is a global practice? Maybe BMW believes I will settle if I do file a case but the reverse would actually be true. Once one makes the effort to go to the courts one follows through at least I do.

It will be the route that I explore after multiple social media awareness messages.

This is just the first of many platforms and one can always repost. The top executives of India need to realize what they are getting into when buying a BMW either new or preowned. That they need to keep a spare vehicle and that BMWs have a lesser life than other cars as also take much longer to service.

The truth will speak for itself. Do feel free to correct any incorrect information I may have posted. I would modify the same. This link has additional details about how I have endured this. As I see it already BMW has had 4 future customers cancel. Many more will follow.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-workshop.html

I reiterate my minimum expectation of reliable performance for 2 more yrs under the a warranty cover to give me the peace of mind originally expected and that in case of a failure a standby vehicle be provided. Of course if I am forced to take the legal route the minimum expectations would start with a full refund plus damages on account of being forced to keep a second vehicle and mental stress.

Awaiting a resolution.

Regards
Anand
Anand C. Mehta"

Dear ACM,

It's extremely unfortunate to hear what happened. Although I want to reiterate that a car with such major replacements should have been avoided. It was your first time getting a BMW and I think the 30D is too tempting to give up.

BMW Premium Selection has an 'infinite' budget to refurbish cars basically, the used cars when purchased go through a 360 checkup and all parts are replaced which are faulty. The parts come to FOC to the dealer who changes them and sends the old parts back. You can also find things which you feel are amiss and ask Premium Selection to replace them prior to delivery, I faced a lot of similar issues when I bought my 328i but after understanding their workings I'm a bit wiser.

Considering how old the car is and the high mileage I can understand why the dealer is pushing for just 35% of the value. Can I suggest you find an alternative car in premium selection which appeals to you, ensure its lower mileage or ideally doesn't have a major component replacement.

Push BMW and the Dealer to give you at least 45-50% of your car value, a 10% push should not be that hard.

BMW Financial services won't charge you any penalty for loan closure if you buy another BMW.

Try and push BMW to offer some freebies on your next car (easier to do)

Close this ordeal, an amicable solution is always better than going legal as companies have much more resources and time at their disposal, and I believe if they are working with you and helping out to resolve this issue you should go for it.

Again, I'm really sorry about what happened. But honestly, the red flags were right in front of you. I believe there is still an opportunity to fix this. And believe you me I've faced a lot of hell over many stupid issues with BMW and Mini but as long as they are willing to work with me to resolve and satisfy I'll give them the benefit of doubt. Also, I agree on the 15day TAT for parts and then waiting for the workshop to do a shoddy job is an experience shared by all BMW owners and they should really up their game on their front, and I am not at all happy with their strange policies on loaner cars. Best of luck!

This sure looks like a case of Hydrolock. What was appearently damaged like the engine + gearbox has been replaced. Other electronics plus the wiring, which has taken the beating due to water, continues to be part of the car. These parts when malfunction, can lead to further damage/failures.

This cannot be treated squarely as second ownership as it is sold directly by the dealership. Otherwise, why would people buy from company operated “true value” outlets when they can get used cars cheaper elsewhere.

IMHO, it is best to get a good exchange offer from the dealership and change the car. Unnecessary headache in my opinion.

But didn’t you suspect anything being wrong when you heard engine and gearbox were replaced? 🤔

This was bought from the dealers "Premium selection"
It went through 360 degree Check-up before purchase and twice after. That in my view now is only marketing. I have had the vehicle develop a fault within a week of such a check-up each time. I don't even know if they really did such a check-up each time they said so.
No more investment on BMWs for me. The Ball is in BMW court. I am prepared to eventually write off this expense but will definitely give BMW a bloody nose in the process and cause them loss of lots of sales on account of them cheating me.

They now believe it to be worth less than 15% of original value.

Exactly, why I picked it up. The assurance to their premium selection. I did not suspect hydrostaticlock though now that others have mentioned it, it does seem possible. I was actually happy gearbox was changed as it is a known issue globally with these models. That is the negative of ZF boxes.

And when my brother wanted to buy Mercedes, I wanted him to go for BMW for better reliability. But looks like Mercedes is more reliable then BMW?

Even though these German cars are not reliable, sometimes good customer/technical support can save customer time, money and energy. Let's see if BMW gives you support.

What I learn from forum, Volvo are having very good customer support when it comes to resolve any issue.

Have been through this thread and all the replies fully.
For what it is worth, I will say this:
Please disregard those telling you to give in. Indeed, if you have the energy and the relative know how to take on a large entity in a poor legal system, do not let anything deter you. I speak as someone who has been at odds with many things that are prevalent in this country across systems, and I simply haven't taken it lying down - though my energy appears to be eroding as I age, so far, I have not stepped away from "losing battles". Not wishing to boast, but I have had reasonable success too. It appears to me, at the risk of being disrespectful, that you are wired the same way. While I can only offer empty words, allow me to urge you on in your determination.

It is very easy to "cut your losses" and "move on" for many. It may be "practical" too. And regardless of what one does, it's a question of what allows you to sleep well at night.
Whether you want to steer clear of hassle, I judge you not.
Whether you are motivated by an unbearable sense of injustice, I think of you as no less noble.
But either way, remember that every time we choose to take things lying down, we contribute to this system rife with unacceptably poor service, absence of consumer protection - missing an opportunity to make it just that tiny bit less awful. It is foolish, idealistic and will never yield tangible change in our lifetimes. But coupled with addressing that sense of injustice, that's what allows me to sleep at night.

Secondly, from my side, I cannot see how you can be blamed, or that it's your "mistake". The only thing you are guilty of, is not being overcautious in a market where promises, training and quality assurance systems mean squat.

When the Germans are acting like Indians in India, the only way forward is for the aggrieved "Indian" to act with the civic sense of a German. I applaud you sir, and I hope that BMW will see sense after seeing your perfectly appropriate email, and that you will not have to go after them - regardless of how much good that'll do.

Precisely.
Either the Swedes are just better (my money is on that), or they haven't yet learnt to be Indian.

Vote with your wallet.

Edit:
P.S. @ACM - Now I know why your big bike plans are on hold.

Best of luck,
Yours sincerely,
A useless, disembodied voice on the internet.

Like you have mentioned earlier, it looks like BMW is trying to postpone and drag the issue until the warranty period is over.

Try to settle for a BMW buyback at 60-75% of the value paid by you (approximate depreciated value after 2 years).

If they don't budge, It would be best if you take this up in consumer court and given the facts regarding the amount of time the car has spent in the workshop on so many occasions, there is a good chance that the court may deem the car "unreliable" and the judgement will go your favour. The court may direct BMW to buy the car back at a fair value of 60-75%.

I have had a very different experience though. My 2005 Swift started to rust with in 03 years of ownership. And I do look after my cars very well. So much so that 03 doors had to be changed. The reply I got from Maruti is that Bombay being near the sea so this is normal since there is a lot of humidity in the air. My house is also sea facing. I guess Maruti shouldn't sell cars in Bombay then.

Sold the car in 2012 at a price much lower than I should have got due to the changed and repainted doors and bought a VW Polo 1.6 (2011 manf). It come with a 06 year anti perforation/corrosion and paint warranty from the showroom. It's been 07+ yrs and not a single issue till date. I was so impressed that I bought a Jetta too.

German cars need to be maintained with a lot of love and care. Remember, ACM has bought a used 04 year old car with 90k kms on the odo. No one knows (or would share) how the car was used during those kilometres. But the fact that the engine and gearbox was changed in less than 100k kms should give you an idea.

This is the most ridiculous response the BMW Customer Service could have ever made. We buy German cars at exorbitant prices only because they boast about their build quality and reliability. If we are to expect a car to start giving you a headache with in 06 year / 1.20k kms, then why should we buy a BMW? Buy an Toyota and it will last for longer without issues!!

Got it.
So until the Germans start taking India seriously and start building cars that can survive for longer in our harsh environment, or start reducing the wait times for repairs, we should be voting with our wallets. I've already built my house and the next thing on my list would have been a luxury car that allows me to spend time on the road with lesser stress. I haven't enjoyed driving for some time now and have even moved away from cities just so I could enjoy life without so many people and cars. Going by the reviews, I think I should be aiming for a Tata Hexa, which seems to tick all the boxes apart from supreme luxury. That should also be doable if one gets some nice interior mods done on the vehicle. This thread seems to have saved me a lot of money.
Another reason I wouldn't have been able to survive such an ownership would be because I just can't stand incompetency, which is what the technicians and mechanics at BMW seem to be. For all the gadgetry and computerised checks that today's cars have, it should be much easier to diagnose and rectify issues than just be a hogwash that they seem to be.

The way I see it, here it is: -

1. Any relatively high-tech car, designed in/for markets with lower temperatures, better road conditions, lesser traffic densities, better/standard fuel & knowledgeable service can ONLY provide what it is designed to, great driving pleasure and safety combined with brand value.

BMW does that in dollops. Period.

Expecting such vehicles to be anything more than that (longevity, complete reliability, dependable after sales service) etc is a tall ask.

These cars are meant for people who understand these aspects and take the plunge OR those who have access/interest in after-market know-how and spare parts, OR the well-heeled who do not mind changing their vehicles as and when they feel like/vehicles wear out, even pre-maturely.

2. Your purchase was duly documented fully legally under the terms & conditions of BMW warranty AND they have been honoring it in full. You do not have a legal stand there to the best of my knowledge.

3. The amount of time your vehicle spent at the service centre/s was indeed long. However, unless there is an explicit, written clause about the amount of time that is considered reasonable for a certain kind of repair/replacement, there is NO legal stand that you seem to have. Add to this the fact that the vehicle was fixed and sent back most of the times (though the issue/s recurred), you were given a stand-in vehicle at other times, and you were NOT charged unduly for ANY of these repairs adds to BMW's stand.

4. Lastly, since you have not masked the plates of your car, and I am sure BMW/Infinity Motors is reading this thread, its value through them will depreciate further, because, even if they buy it back and refurbish it as best as they can, they will still find it a tough sale.

Sounds dry? It unfortunately is.

What would I do?

Sell it, realize my folly and move on to better decisions by learning from it.

Best of luck. I agree that the time taken for service has been far too long. While I am sceptical if you can win this, people like you do a service for all of us - by keeping large companies honest. I do think you overpaid for the car if you paid much more than what I indicated - but the warranty was clearly a good buy. I would not tell them they should not have sold the warranty - I am sure they have already lost money on the warranty sold to you - and we don’t want them concluding that they should not sell long term warranties (which are a great buy in India but a waste in the West).

As GTO has mentioned, Indian traffic conditions, especially in Bombay and Bangalore are incredibly hard on cars. When I was in the US last month, I could easily maintain an average speed of 60 mph on Bay Area freeways - and Google maps showed Red when traffic was moving at 30 mph. My average speed in my X3 has been 21 kph so far. As a Bombay registered car, ACM’s steed would have been through a similar cycle - though the owner probably also did highway runs to rack up the miles.

Add to that the level of dust in India which goes everywhere and corrodes parts. If I fail to clean my car for a single day, it looks worse than my rental in the US did without even a light dusting for 8 days (during which I covered 600 miles). You can get rid of the superficial dust, but not the impact on electronics.

Why the car parts and systems have failed is completely irrelevant - if there is a warranty provided for that period, then the problem needs to be attended to.

I am shocked that BMW is basically saying that "6 years, 126,000 kms done - how much longer do you expect a BMW X3 to last? "

There is a reason why, even in US, a used Camry/Accord sells at comparable prices to the used BMW/Audi/Merc. You can see enough examples online of a used Accord and X3 selling at 20000$.

While, as others have mentioned, difference in road/traffic/environment conditions between US and India are there, thing is they apply to all brands of cars equally.

Germans are fun, Japanese are reliable. Such is life stupid:

One of the wisest advices here.

ACM, if going legal gives you mental peace, then by all means go for it. But do consider following before deciding:

1. BWM has honoured the warranty and replaced faulty parts as and when issues came up. So that makes their case stronger.

2. Please check with your lawyer if you need to keep the car till the result of case comes out. I am not sure if it is required or not but if it is then that is additional risk to carry.

3. Warranty contracts do not guarantee/talk about TAT or loaner cars hence legally it may be difficult to fight on this point. Again, an honest and smart lawyer should be able to advice on this.

4. This being a used car purchase, the reliability point sounds weak in the court as the usage from first owner was out of BMW's control. The 360deg check might also have some hidden T&C which you need to get checked from lawyer.

I would suggest talking to Navnit/BMW to get them buy back the car with higher valuation. Would be a hard negotiations but could work and will be a much simpler solution.

There are two issues here:

1. 25% downtime during warranty repair, etc.: There is no strong enough case to go after BMW here. They are honouring the warranty obligations and they can easily defend it.

2. Selling a pre-owned car that is a lemon (possibly flood damaged): this is what you can research and pursue if you can prove that they intentionally sold you a lemon while they promise to sell high quality 360deg verified used cars under their pre-owned brand.