[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by lurker

It is funny thing that you should quote freddy hernandez on Scotty Kilmer, I am a long time subscriber to both and one thing they both agree on is that BMW's are crap. Where they basically disagree is that Scotty Kilmer says mercedes are crap as well but freddy hernandez has a soft spot for big engined merc sportscars & coupe.

Freddy Hernandez: Why BMWs are gigantic pieces of shit.

https://jalopnik.com/bmw-engines-are...hit-1784684330

Since you consider him to be the final word on scotty kilmer, I wonder what you would say about this.

Regarding plastic parts examples, to cite an instance. The BMW water pump impeller was made out of plastic in certain models. OEM and bmw OE would provide plastic impeller water pumps which would fail all of a sudden. So certain aftermarket component manufacturers of BMW parts came up with metal impeller water pumps. Many users in Europe switched to these metal water pumps so BMW started introducing metal water pumps in some models where water pump failure was a frequent issue. In some .models they continue using plastic water pumps.

So basically as a BMW customer you are a guinea pig for their experiments with plastics. If you want to still patronise them and buy their products which can give driving pleasure when all parts work well, then that is your choice. But do not say these plastic beauties are dependable or have absolutely no issues and the only issues are in the jaundiced, prejudiced eyes of the bystander.

Well I did a quick google as I mentioned earlier. I did not mention that either of them is the final word on anything. Infact I do not follow either, but from reading even a tiny bit on this Scotty chap, I can figure out he is full of himself.

Anyway, the point being, you've listed a whole bunch of parts, and made it seem like a huge deal. Here's a newsflash for you - Other manufacturers do the same thing too.

Why single out BMW in this case? All manufacturers try new things, sometimes they have to make revisions.

I will most definitely continue to patronise them, and yes these so called 'plastic beauties' do work for me. All 5 of them that we have in the extended family have given less issues than the Mercedes' we have. Yes that is anecdotal data, but I'm sure the hue and cry about plastic parts has anecdotal data too.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by Akshay1234

Well I did a quick google as I mentioned earlier. I did not mention that either of them is the final word on anything. Infact I do not follow either, but from reading even a tiny bit on this Scotty chap, I can figure out he is full of himself.

hmm .. now you say that.

I would admit that I do follow both and their DIY vids. I do follow a bunch of other mechs too so it is not like theirs is a final word on BMW that I blindly believe.

the point being, you've listed a whole bunch of parts, and made it seem like a huge deal. Here's a newsflash for you - Other manufacturers do the same thing too.

Actually they don't. Maruti & Toyota both use rubber and metal parts on all their cooling parts. You will not notice a single plastic part in engine cooling system where these manufacturers use plastic. Except maybe a humble coolant expansion tank.

Why single out BMW in this case? All manufacturers try new things, sometimes they have to make revisions.

Other manufacturers try new things too. Maruti came up with many new features in their cars like Apple car play, cruise control, bluetooth connectivity, auto climate control, remote trunk opener, daylight adjustable irvm, MFD etc but to add these new features they may have controlled costs by using lighter sheet metal which may have compromised crash safety but did not compromise running reliability. So different manufacturers have different priorities for sure. I am not supporting any practice but pointing out to potential customers on the pitfalls which await in each brand.

I will most definitely continue to patronise them, and yes these so called 'plastic beauties' do work for me. All 5 of them that we have in the extended family have given less issues than the Mercedes' we have. Yes that is anecdotal data, but I'm sure the hue and cry about plastic parts has anecdotal data too.

Nothing personal here, BMW the brand has certain manufacturing practices which people need to be aware of. A modern BMW has on average 200 sensors. Usually aircrafts which have comparable amount of sensors are parked in a/c hangars when on ground. So a BMW with 200 sensors need to be babied and not exposed to harsh weather or driving conditions. Sensors are sensitive to heat and some are to light. In dusty conditions which prevail in some parts of India many of these sensors may fail in suboptimal operating conditions.

[digital4u]

Originally Posted by lurker

It is funny thing that you should quote freddy hernandez on Scotty Kilmer, I am a long time subscriber to both and one thing they both agree on is that BMW's are crap. Where they basically disagree is that Scotty Kilmer says mercedes are crap as well but freddy hernandez has a soft spot for big engined merc sportscars & coupe.

Please Ji, address the questions posed to you with FACTS, my eyes maybe jaundiced, certainly not a BLIND BAT. Facts are whether one can see, hear, feel, touch, smell.

Without addressing FACT for FACT, there is no value by entertaining long chats.

Repeat -

1 - Tell us the parts that you mentioned and what other manufacturers are using? This is so very important to me and other readers of this thread.

2 - Why has BMW won so many Engine of the Year Awards by a Panel of Judges???

3 - Are either Scott Kilmer or Fredy Hernandez Car Manufacturers?

4 - Yes its my choice, to drive a BMW or not. But its an educated choice not a budget choice - Indian Road conditions do not have the finesse to enjoy Ultimate Driving Pleasure. Would like to get a rating of our roads compared to a first world country. I can tell you something that no one has mentioned, the quality of workmanship at the so call showrooms. That part is downright shoddy as many of these mechanics are "Replacement" specialists, and with that comes a massive problem - why the part failed in the first place is never diagnosed properly. This is not a manufacturer problem but rather the skill sets have still not been imparted in an effective manner. A simple plastic radiator cap not fitted back properly has led me to be stranded, I praised Almighty that it was not a loose wheel nut or brake caliper.

5 - When you are in business and take time to build an identity, brand awareness, loyalty, and surpass many other very difficult scenarios to overcome, its very tough for a businessman like me to stand idle and listen to vitriolic without first hand experience. Why trash a brand when you do not understand why plastics are used? You say its just cost effective, no ways! Please give a proper answer on why Plastics are used in certain areas more than metal as surely there are many specialists out there who can attest to use of plastics. "Having an Educated Enemy than an Uneducated Friend" holds specially true in life, without proper knowledge on such high-end technology Scott or whoever implying that only CAST IRON should be used would mean that we would have never had an Aeroplane nor a Rocket.

6 - Another big factor on why any performance car has problems is very simple, they are hammered without even being warmed up properly. The effect of having plastics or rubber components in a vehicle means these seals, pumps etc have to get warmed up gradually to prevent sudden temperature variances that will directly cause brittleness. I have seen so many blokes screeching out of parking lots without getting the engine warmed up. How many people out there know that seals of an engine are flexible? Are designed to contain fluids operating at certain temperatures? Major engine damage/failure happens with improper engine temperatures. Toyota under powers their engines to ensure long term reliability, but with cars like BMW its Unadulterated Power on tap. Do not expect longevity from a Pedigree RACE Horse, buy a MULE for that purpose. Simplest of Logic out there that does not need a Phd.

7 - I sincerely hope this discussion does not go into the discussion of which is a better car cause it might lead to some very unsavory points as I believe each to his own. I like BLACK, You Like Magento, and thats absolutely fine with me but do not call a person a racist(jaundiced) person just cause he has a colour preference thats not to your liking.

Put FACTS on the table, Cream always raises to the Top.

[R2D2]

Gents, can we please keep this discussion focused on the OP's car and the problems he's facing/faced? Car manufacturer bashing & fanboi forums are a-plenty on the 'net.

[digital4u]

Other manufacturers try new things too. Maruti came up with many new features in their cars like Apple car play, cruise control, bluetooth connectivity, auto climate control, remote trunk opener, daylight adjustable irvm, MFD etc


PLEASE TELL US WHICH ONE OF THOSE "NEW" FEATURES WERE INNOVATED BY MARUTI. By innovation, I would like to know of there has been any patented new technology that Maruti has implemented from the list you have mentioned.

The world belongs to the innovator, not some bloke who learned to copy something and makes it more reliable. Thats exactly why the very brand you mentioned, APPLE did not come out of Japan. Companies & Individuals who copy ideas are nothing more than a common thief cause they are getting the benefit of spending zero monies on Research & Development. Don't for one minute think people are stupid to pay a premium amount to get it from the SOURCE. There are words called "heritage", "Upbringing", "Culture"....and companies who are at the cutting edge of technology will by default have to get a premium before their blood & sweat is copied!!!

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by lurker

Other manufacturers try new things too. Maruti came up with many new features in their cars like Apple car play, cruise control, bluetooth connectivity, auto climate control, remote trunk opener, daylight adjustable irvm, MFD etc but to add these new features they may have controlled costs by using lighter sheet metal which may have compromised crash safety but did not compromise running reliability. So different manufacturers have different priorities for sure. I am not supporting any practice but pointing out to potential customers on the pitfalls which await in each brand.

Nothing personal here, BMW the brand has certain manufacturing practices which people need to be aware of. A modern BMW has on average 200 sensors. Usually aircrafts which have comparable amount of sensors are parked in a/c hangars when on ground. So a BMW with 200 sensors need to be babied and not exposed to harsh weather or driving conditions. Sensors are sensitive to heat and some are to light. In dusty conditions which prevail in some parts of India many of these sensors may fail in suboptimal operating conditions.

I hope you have verified your facts.

Why are we bringing Maruti, etc into this? If there is a comparison to be made, should it not be made against manufacturers who are competing with BMW like Mercedes or Audi?

BMW probably has more than 200 sensors, but so what? So does its competition. Though it is nice to see a BMW being compared to an aircraft in terms of electronic complexity, I must admit. The fact is an aircraft is a LOT LOT more complicated, and really shouldn't even be mentioned here.

Anyway this is probably not going to lead anywhere, and has nothing to do with ACMs problem. So lets call it a day.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by digital4u

2 - Why has BMW won so many Engine of the Year Awards by a Panel of Judges???

I am specifically quoting this because "engine of the year" doesn't have anything to do with long term reliability or durability. Its about how that engine performs during the duration of testing which may be a few days of testing over hundred or a couple of thousand kilometres at best.

This is not to say that BMW engine's are the worse, it only says that they arent durable or not as durable as anything from Japan (Even the humble Corolla will outlast the best from BMW). Out here in the Australian outback where your life depends on your car bringing you back safely, all you see are Toyota LandCruiser's or Hilux's or Nissan Patrols.

A panel of judges isnt going to award "Engine Of The Year" award to 4.5 litre twin turbo V8 LC200 diesel engine with 260 odd bhp and 650nm of torque, figures which are bettered by any 3.0 litre V6 diesel from Europe. But I can bet you that while those engines would have died or self destruct themselves, Toyota engine would still be going strong. There are examples with more than 300,000 kms on the clock doing off roads duty almost daily with nary an issue with just regular basic maintenance. Technology doesnt guarantee durability, technology only guarantees technology.

[pramodkumar]

Originally Posted by digital4u

6 - Another big factor on why any performance car has problems is very simple, they are hammered without even being warmed up properly.

+ 1 Certain BMW engines(e46M3) doesn't let you use full throttle till they are warmed up to temperature, only after they reach full operating temperature they let you open the taps fully or rev till the red line. These are specialist machines that delivers pure unadulterated driving pleasure, everything right from the cockpit design, to the seat, to the gadgets that surround you is built to enhance your driving experience, on the other hand all you need to do is sit inside a Toyota to understand the paradigm shift.

Note: This comment is not a Toyota bashing comment, Toyotas gain on other aspects, which is why they outsell Germans.

Question to the OP, Pardon me ignorance.

I understand your car was stranded without parts, one of them bein a rain sensor, but why would you leave your car in the workshop waiting for a rain sensor?

Also to check if a rain sensor is working do you really need to wait till the next monsoon?

Could you post the list of parts the car was in the workshop for? Also the number of days each part took to arrive.

This would not only help you build your case further against BMW, but will also help prospective future owners like myself to gain some really valuable insight.

Pramod

[Turbanator]

From my experiences, Electronics are a big issue in these cars especially if something goes bad, there are chances some other parts also get damaged. I am being warned in past about some possible ECU Damage when they tried to change the battery and an alternator component on my 7-Year-old X6. I took as a warning of things to come and sold off the car next month. My new 7 went multiple times for one or the other faults mostly originating when they were carrying out the repairs. Last time, the whole Instrument cluster had to be changed when my Car went for an issue with the horn.

But, they never kept the car beyond what was absolutely necessary, never more than 2 Days and the car was picked/dropped without charge and they did a detailed external and internal cleaning last month on my request without a charge. A critical part like Instrument cluster took about 15 days to arrive from Germany ( as compared to over 40 Days on my Harley - Fuel Tank filter) and they kept in touch with E-Mail on the status and followed up with a call when the parts arrived. But more than 10 visits in less than a year even though for small things were too much for me and I ultimately sold last week. Since I had bought at a very competitive price, didn't take much hit on the sales.

Now, will I ever buy a BMW Again? Not yet decided but my Dealership experience with the Bird after initial hiccup has been very good.

Coming to the topic, OP can continue pursuing the matter but in all fairness, BMW India cannot help much. As a policy, they don't give an extended warranty beyond 6 Years, I was refused on less than 30 K X6 always serviced at BMW and bought new but they took care of the warranty well past in 7th Year and even replaced battery and alternator without charge a few months back. Maybe OP should buy a maintenance package for 10 Years and try to get some assurance from the local dealership on the support after warranty gets over. I think, parts replaced under warranty will carry an additional warranty of 1 Year from date of installation, I may be wrong though.

[giri1.8]

I am confused as to why people think complex cars can fail and its okay. I hardly see anyone having big issue with Japanese brands like Lexus!
Having features is one thing, how one integrates them seems to be another! I am no expert in engineering, but modern cars seem to be built and tested only in lab conditions and they take every chance to add a not so useful feature that will make their car look better than the competition.

I just hope OP gets something more reliable and enjoys his life peacefully rather than thinking about service and repairs. (Been there, done that )

This video gives an idea about how well all the gizoms translate in real-life conditions. At the end, where three wheels are on the roller one can see the difference between the systems.

https://youtu.be/LZjsi6CcMgM

[lurker]

Reading through the OPs posts, apart from myriad sensor issues he also mentions problems with door knob failure and coolant leakage, both of which in bmw's specific case arise due to problems with plastics.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by lurker

Reading through the OPs posts, apart from myriad sensor issues he also mentions problems with door knob failure and coolant leakage, both of which in bmw's specific case arise due to problems with plastics.

Just a slight correction for the record. It was the door window winder (still not resolved after 4 tries and 12 days allotted to it) and the remote keys (not being recognized) though the keys looked brand new and also the coolant leakage somewhere in the system that took about 20 days.

Yep the rubber grips on doors handles needed to be replaced at my cost, but that I do accept due to age in Bombays humid climate.

I frankly don't have an issue with plastic usage to save weight as long as it is of better quality than metal and also of equivalent life, else I would take the weight anyday.

[lurker]

Heat tolerant plastic manufacturers like Du Pont say their reinforced plastics can withstand temps of 300-400°c, but proof of the pudding is ultimately in the pudding itself, why are then a disproportionate number of BMW owners complaining of coolant leaks/issues. Why Toyota, Suzuki, Hyundai owners are not complaining similarly of coolant problems.

One gentleman here mentioned BMW should only be compared to merc or audi. And not japanese cars or budget cars. But unfortunately all engines are more or less the same and have same mechanical underpinnings. A maruti mechanic equipped with bmw proprietory diagnostic tools can easily repair a bmw.

So this means either bmw is lying or Du Pont is lying on durability of their plastics in engine applications

Or

You the customer is a scapegoat for their R&D. Maybe sometime in future they may perfect their plastics. Until then customers can suffer or we can do like Trump has said,

Trump told French president Emmanuel Macron he would maintain his trade policy “until no Mercedes models rolled on Fifth Avenue in New York.”

http://fortune.com/2018/05/31/trump-...erman-car-ban/

India can also learn from Trump because what bmw is doing can be ultimately categorized as *unfair trade practice*. GoI permits bmw to import CKD kits to encourage automobile manufacturing but these guys are so cunning that they not only profit from CKD manufacturing but their cars develop faults promptly within 5 years and they start importing all the replacement spare parts from germany. And these parts are high value. Like OP had a horn complaint and he had to change entire instrument cluster because BMW does not sell horns seperately. IMHO total lifetime forex outflow on each BMW product is much more than what meets the eye. So what Trump said is right that the Euro car manufacturers were essentialy fleecing countries around the globe.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by lurker

India can also learn from Trump because what bmw is doing can be ultimately categorized as *unfair trade practice*. GoI permits bmw to import CKD kits to encourage automobile manufacturing but these guys are so cunning that they not only profit from CKD manufacturing but their cars develop faults promptly within 5 years and they start importing all the replacement spare parts from germany. And these parts are high value. Like OP had a horn complaint and he had to change entire instrument cluster because BMW does not sell horns seperately. IMHO total lifetime forex outflow on each BMW product is much more than what meets the eye. So what Trump said is right that the Euro car manufacturers were essentialy fleecing countries around the globe.

India already has 100% + taxes, what are we to learn from Trump?

I implore you to do some proper research before spreading misinformation.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by Akshay1234

India already has 100% + taxes, what are we to learn from Trump?

Unfortunately you have quoted import duty rates for CBU cars valued above '$40k. CKD is 30% but I doubt BMW is even paying CKD rates because CKD states engines are pre-assembled but not mounted in chassis.

afaik BMW 3,5,7 series diesel engines are assembled by force motors. So they are paying negligible duties for these high selling models.