High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories

TheMileCruncher · 5th July 2018, 14:41

Let me start by apologizing for the long post. I wanted to keep it short but I also think that it's important to document the entire history, event in detail so that it's easier for others to make sense of this query.

So about a month ago, out of nowhere my car (Celerio CNG) started jerking and stalling at lower speeds. This started right after I refilled CNG at a newly opened pump so I thought maybe this was due to filling up gas that was too rich (CNG that contains higher amount of Hydrocarbons) and the issue should auto resolve when I run out of this batch of gas and refill at my regular pump again.

However, even after multiple refills, the issue persisted and since the car was due for the 70k kms servicing, I dropped it at Vitesse Prabhadevi who are Maruti authorized and asked them to fix this.

The car was with them for a few hours when I received a call stating that the tappet valves have jammed due to wear & tear and will need to be replaced which as per them will resolve this issue. Along with the tappets, they also would need to replace the spark plugs since one of them had shorted.

Since I always service my car from them and they've earned my trust, I gave them a go ahead for the works and the car was readied by the next day afternoon. As usual, I went, paid my bill (around 8k), picked up the car and left.

I drove the car for a few hundred meters and noticed that the RPM was way too high (between 1600 & 1800) with and without the AC running at lower speeds when my foot was off the accelerator. Basically, under power the car would idle above 1600 and keep moving forward until I braked.

After braking, the engine would continue idling at 1600 and after 3-4 seconds it would drop down to 1000 and then start fluctuating between 600-1000 erratically. This would also happen each time I cranked the engine. It would go upto 1600, stay there for a few seconds and then come down and start fluctuating.

Since this was the first time I encountered the high RPM issue, I called up my service adviser and briefed him about the issue. He asked me to get the car back but I was running late already so I informed him that I would come back the next day.

The next day, I went back and showed him the problem, they took the car into the bay area and started their investigation while I waited in the lounge. A couple of hours later, they came to the conclusion that the throttle body had gone kaput and would need replacement. The car is still under warranty so they sent an email to Maruti for approval and told me that within 7 days, the new part should be available.

One week later, as promised the part arrived and I took the car back to them and after 4 hours of waiting, finally the new throttle body was replaced and the car was handed over to me. Unfortunately my usual service adviser was on leave and due to the 4 hour long wait, I was frustrated and took delivery of the car without a test drive.

Drove for a few hundred meters again, and the same issue persisted..

Since I was too tired, I simply drove back home and called my service guy the following day. He apologized for the inconvenience, asked me to come over and I did. Their TSM initially did not agree with me that there was an issue, so I asked him to accompany me on a short drive and I was able to convince him that there was indeed an issue.

To my surprise, they came back to me saying that the replacement throttle body was defective and they have ordered a new one again which will take another week to arrive. Since I had no other option, I waited for a week, then 2 weeks and then 3 weeks.

Irritated by this, I called up the customer care and they assured me that the new part will arrive the next day. They gave me an appointment and as scheduled, I went for the part replacement. Unfortunately again, my usual service adviser was on sick leave the entire week and I had to work with someone else and explain him the entire sequence of events. I waited for an hour when the service adviser came back to me and told me that they need more time to investigate this thoroughly and they asked me to give them a day.

Reluctantly, I agreed and left. I was assured that I will get an update the same day in the evening but even late afternoon the following day, I did not get any response from them and I had lost my patience by now. I called up the service manager and gave him an ultimatum that either fix the problem or I'll take the car somewhere else to be fixed. He informed me that they have looked into everything that the service manual directed them to but to no avail. He told me that they have now escalated this to Maruti itself and an engineer has been asked to come down and take a look. He also arranged a service vehicle for me to use while my car was with them under investigation.

Yesterday, I got a call from the service manager who asked me as to where have I installed the after market accessories from which included the ICE, remote locking, Phillips 100/90 headlamps with Phillips wiring harness and the fog lamps. I told them that this was all done through a local store and I've never had any issues in the car due to this.

His response, "The engineer asked us to disconnect all external accessories connected to the car, we did and viola, the RPM issue was resolved". His explanation was that the accessories are causing some sort of electrical interference which is causing the high/fluctuating RPM issue.

Now I've had multiple cars in the past which were heavily accessorized and I never had any such issues so I was not sold on this explanation. I still went ahead and drove the car with all accessories disconnected and the car was actually running smooth.

They charged me 4k for diagnosing the issue and told me to observe the car's performance over the next 10 days, after which they will generate a bill if the issue does not reoccur.

As of now, I have only reconnected the remote locking and the car is still running fine. I plan on adding one accessory back to the set-up everyday to see if the issue reappears.

Even though the issue is resolved, I am still not convinced that this was the root cause.

Has anyone here encountered such an issue in their car? Does this make any sense or are they just covering up the actual cause of the issue?

I looked up the internet, our forum and did not find anything that would back-up their claim.

@Moderators: Please move the thread to the appropriate section if this is not the right place to be posting this.

Thanks!!

saket77 · 5th July 2018, 15:48

How old is the car and what about the battery health? I am suspecting a discharged or an about-to-die battery here as the number 1 cause. It's very difficult to gauge the kind of problems a dying/ low battery can cause in these modern computer controlled cars which are so much dependent on relevant voltages to be fed throughout the entire circuitry.

Other 3 things that also might be worth checking are
1. Radiator thermostat.
2. Jammed IAC (Idle Air Control) valve, &
3. Bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor).

I'm suspecting it to be a weak battery than others because the problem seems to have gone away after reducing the load.

Regards,
Saket.

TheMileCruncher · 5th July 2018, 16:04

The car will be 3 years old come September this year and has clocked around 74k kms.

The service center claims to have scanned the vehicle and no error codes came up. They also followed all troubleshooting procedures in the service manual and everything worked out well.

I asked them to load test the battery and the alternator which they claim they have tested but I doubt it. I'm going to get these load tested from a FNG soon and have also ordered a new OBDII scanner to scan the system myself.

I hope this turns out to be a battery or alternator issue since I'm currently running without any accessories on which I've spent almost 90k.

JediKnight · 5th July 2018, 16:10

A badly behaving accessory introducing a "ripple" on the "line" voltage can theoretically cause a sensor data being incorrectly read. I am not sure what is the root cause of your issue but theoretically it is possible for a bad accessory to cause such a problem.

TheMileCruncher · 5th July 2018, 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKnight

A badly behaving accessory introducing a "ripple" on the "line" voltage can theoretically cause a sensor data being incorrectly read. I am not sure what is the root cause of your issue but theoretically it is possible for a bad accessory to cause such a problem.

How does one go about identifying such an issue? As I mentioned in my initial post, I will be introducing one accessory at a time each day into the system to check if that helps. Is there anything else I should be doing?

Also, since all the accessories (except for the Phillips headlight harness) are connected directly to the battery without cutting/splicing the main wiring harness, shouldn't this take care of the ripple voltage?

I'm not that technical when it comes to automobiles so I'm just shooting in the dark and I really appreciate your help.

Thanks!

blackasta · 5th July 2018, 17:28

Please check if all the electricals, whether factory fitted or aftermarket , are grounded correctly.
Faced an issue a few days back (shall elaborate in my ownership thread) where a loose grounding (due to a body work) wrecked havoc with abnormal lights, car stalling, abnormal rpm and what not. All was fixed by just tightening a ground line.

R2D2 · 5th July 2018, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMileCruncher

Yesterday, I got a call from the service manager who asked me as to where have I installed the after market accessories from which included the ICE, remote locking, Phillips 100/90 headlamps with Phillips wiring harness and the fog lamps.

If the issue is resolved by disconnecting the accessories I'd suspect one of these parts to be the cause and/or faulty wiring including earth.

Please have the wiring checked for leaks and voltage drops. Modern car electronics are sensitive to voltage and amperage being within tolerances. ECUs and other electrical systems can act flaky if supply is inconsistent or have poor connectivity either to power (+) or ground.

Also, does your aftermarket security system have an ignition cut off? I had one installed (part of a security system) in one of my cars a long time ago and it only created problems for me. It was promptly disconnected.

TheMileCruncher · 5th July 2018, 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackasta

Please check if all the electricals, whether factory fitted or aftermarket , are grounded correctly.
Faced an issue a few days back (shall elaborate in my ownership thread) where a loose grounding (due to a body work) wrecked havoc with abnormal lights, car stalling, abnormal rpm and what not. All was fixed by just tightening a ground line.

That's the plan. I know where all the after market accessories are grounded so I can check those myself. Not sure about the factory fitted electrical though. Is this a simple check-up or do I need to involve a mechanic for this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by R2D2

If the issue is resolved by disconnecting the accessories I'd suspect one of these parts to be the cause and/or faulty wiring including earth.

Please have the wiring checked for leaks and voltage drops. Modern car electronics are sensitive to voltage and amperage being within tolerances. ECUs and other electrical systems can act flaky if supply is inconsistent or have poor connectivity either to power (+) or ground.

Also, does your aftermarket security system have an ignition cut off? I had one installed (part of a security system) in one of my cars a long time ago and it only created problems for me. It was promptly disconnected.

Thanks for the response. I'm going to get this checked over the weekend and share an update.

The security system is only for remote locking and doesn't have the ignition cut off feature.

akshay380 · 5th July 2018, 19:14

Here is my 2p. I had ordered a cheapo OBD scanner and after leaving the same connected to OBD port I used to get strange issues including car not locking properly, all lights in console glowing on and then starting issues once in a while. I disconnected the scanner, reset ECU by disconnecting battery and all has been fine since then.

TheMileCruncher · 5th July 2018, 21:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by akshay380

Here is my 2p. I had ordered a cheapo OBD scanner and after leaving the same connected to OBD port I used to get strange issues including car not locking properly, all lights in console glowing on and then starting issues once in a while. I disconnected the scanner, reset ECU by disconnecting battery and all has been fine since then.

Which scanner did you use? I've ordered the one by Gadget Hero from Flipkart and this was recommended to me by fellow BHPians in Mumbai. It was delivered earlier today and I've not yet checked it.

Will give it a try and see if I encounter any issues with it (hopefully not).

Chethan B G · 5th July 2018, 23:50

Few reasons for Idle RPM increase are; battery is weak or the alternator is not charging properly or the AC compressor/temperature sensor is not working or a bad ground/return path or leak in air intake.

If an electrical accessory has to create an issue, then there can be two reasons; either the accessory is defective / of low quality in terms of wiring which has eventually failed or the battery is weak.

It is a good idea to start adding one accessory per day. But before that, I would blindly replace the battery if it is more than 3 years old.

All the best! Please update!

SCORPION · 6th July 2018, 01:13

It is possible that the engineer quietly replaced your oxygen sensor to save the dealer workshop from embarrassment. Faulty oxygen sensor in the exhaust manifold can cause rough, erratic idling and can also cause the car to stall. I had a similar issue in one of my earlier cars and the oxygen sensor was the culprit. The car did not display the Check Engine Light.

scorpian · 6th July 2018, 10:51

Hi,
You will need to isolate all accessories one by one and that should help you pinpoint where exactly the issue is.
If you can then start isolating each circuit by removing the respective fuse from its holder and then observe if the issue is resolved or still occurring, if its still present then some other accessory is causing a issue and then you move to that particular fuse.
Your best bet is to eliminate each circuit one by one,eventually you will be able to find out whats causing the issue.

SS-Traveller · 6th July 2018, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMileCruncher

The engineer asked us to disconnect all external accessories connected to the car, we did and viola, the RPM issue was resolved...

Very typical of a sparking electrical connection somewhere - a loose earthing point, or a badly jointed wire, or a short circuit.

Aroy · 6th July 2018, 18:16

High idling may be the ECU trying to get sufficient RPM to charge the battery. That can be due to any one of the following :
. Battery on its last leg. The normal RPM is not enough to charge.
. Alternator has deteriorated, so that it cannot charge at normal idling RPM.
. One or more accessory is consuming more power than the alternator can supply at idling.

You can home in a step by step manner.
. Get the alternator and battery checked by a third party electrical shop, who have the necessary test equipment. This is quite routine - current output for alternator, and discharge test for battery.
. In case both are fine, then start by connecting one accessory at a time and check the current consumed.
. In case all seems fine, then as others have pointed out it may be an earth loose or a short in harness.

You should find the culprit if it is any of the above.

5th July 2018, 14:41	#1
TheMileCruncher BHPian Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Mumbai Posts: 39 Thanked: 32 Times	High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories Let me start by apologizing for the long post. I wanted to keep it short but I also think that it's important to document the entire history, event in detail so that it's easier for others to make sense of this query. So about a month ago, out of nowhere my car (Celerio CNG) started jerking and stalling at lower speeds. This started right after I refilled CNG at a newly opened pump so I thought maybe this was due to filling up gas that was too rich (CNG that contains higher amount of Hydrocarbons) and the issue should auto resolve when I run out of this batch of gas and refill at my regular pump again. However, even after multiple refills, the issue persisted and since the car was due for the 70k kms servicing, I dropped it at Vitesse Prabhadevi who are Maruti authorized and asked them to fix this. The car was with them for a few hours when I received a call stating that the tappet valves have jammed due to wear & tear and will need to be replaced which as per them will resolve this issue. Along with the tappets, they also would need to replace the spark plugs since one of them had shorted. Since I always service my car from them and they've earned my trust, I gave them a go ahead for the works and the car was readied by the next day afternoon. As usual, I went, paid my bill (around 8k), picked up the car and left. I drove the car for a few hundred meters and noticed that the RPM was way too high (between 1600 & 1800) with and without the AC running at lower speeds when my foot was off the accelerator. Basically, under power the car would idle above 1600 and keep moving forward until I braked. After braking, the engine would continue idling at 1600 and after 3-4 seconds it would drop down to 1000 and then start fluctuating between 600-1000 erratically. This would also happen each time I cranked the engine. It would go upto 1600, stay there for a few seconds and then come down and start fluctuating. Since this was the first time I encountered the high RPM issue, I called up my service adviser and briefed him about the issue. He asked me to get the car back but I was running late already so I informed him that I would come back the next day. The next day, I went back and showed him the problem, they took the car into the bay area and started their investigation while I waited in the lounge. A couple of hours later, they came to the conclusion that the throttle body had gone kaput and would need replacement. The car is still under warranty so they sent an email to Maruti for approval and told me that within 7 days, the new part should be available. One week later, as promised the part arrived and I took the car back to them and after 4 hours of waiting, finally the new throttle body was replaced and the car was handed over to me. Unfortunately my usual service adviser was on leave and due to the 4 hour long wait, I was frustrated and took delivery of the car without a test drive. Drove for a few hundred meters again, and the same issue persisted.. Since I was too tired, I simply drove back home and called my service guy the following day. He apologized for the inconvenience, asked me to come over and I did. Their TSM initially did not agree with me that there was an issue, so I asked him to accompany me on a short drive and I was able to convince him that there was indeed an issue. To my surprise, they came back to me saying that the replacement throttle body was defective and they have ordered a new one again which will take another week to arrive. Since I had no other option, I waited for a week, then 2 weeks and then 3 weeks. Irritated by this, I called up the customer care and they assured me that the new part will arrive the next day. They gave me an appointment and as scheduled, I went for the part replacement. Unfortunately again, my usual service adviser was on sick leave the entire week and I had to work with someone else and explain him the entire sequence of events. I waited for an hour when the service adviser came back to me and told me that they need more time to investigate this thoroughly and they asked me to give them a day. Reluctantly, I agreed and left. I was assured that I will get an update the same day in the evening but even late afternoon the following day, I did not get any response from them and I had lost my patience by now. I called up the service manager and gave him an ultimatum that either fix the problem or I'll take the car somewhere else to be fixed. He informed me that they have looked into everything that the service manual directed them to but to no avail. He told me that they have now escalated this to Maruti itself and an engineer has been asked to come down and take a look. He also arranged a service vehicle for me to use while my car was with them under investigation. Yesterday, I got a call from the service manager who asked me as to where have I installed the after market accessories from which included the ICE, remote locking, Phillips 100/90 headlamps with Phillips wiring harness and the fog lamps. I told them that this was all done through a local store and I've never had any issues in the car due to this. His response, "The engineer asked us to disconnect all external accessories connected to the car, we did and viola, the RPM issue was resolved". His explanation was that the accessories are causing some sort of electrical interference which is causing the high/fluctuating RPM issue. Now I've had multiple cars in the past which were heavily accessorized and I never had any such issues so I was not sold on this explanation. I still went ahead and drove the car with all accessories disconnected and the car was actually running smooth. They charged me 4k for diagnosing the issue and told me to observe the car's performance over the next 10 days, after which they will generate a bill if the issue does not reoccur. As of now, I have only reconnected the remote locking and the car is still running fine. I plan on adding one accessory back to the set-up everyday to see if the issue reappears. Even though the issue is resolved, I am still not convinced that this was the root cause. Has anyone here encountered such an issue in their car? Does this make any sense or are they just covering up the actual cause of the issue? I looked up the internet, our forum and did not find anything that would back-up their claim. @Moderators: Please move the thread to the appropriate section if this is not the right place to be posting this. Thanks!!
	(4) Thanks

5th July 2018, 15:48	#2
saket77 Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Ranchi Posts: 4,395 Thanked: 12,021 Times	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories How old is the car and what about the battery health? I am suspecting a discharged or an about-to-die battery here as the number 1 cause. It's very difficult to gauge the kind of problems a dying/ low battery can cause in these modern computer controlled cars which are so much dependent on relevant voltages to be fed throughout the entire circuitry. Other 3 things that also might be worth checking are 1. Radiator thermostat. 2. Jammed IAC (Idle Air Control) valve, & 3. Bad TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). I'm suspecting it to be a weak battery than others because the problem seems to have gone away after reducing the load. Regards, Saket.
	(6) Thanks

5th July 2018, 16:04	#3
TheMileCruncher BHPian Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Mumbai Posts: 39 Thanked: 32 Times	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories The car will be 3 years old come September this year and has clocked around 74k kms. The service center claims to have scanned the vehicle and no error codes came up. They also followed all troubleshooting procedures in the service manual and everything worked out well. I asked them to load test the battery and the alternator which they claim they have tested but I doubt it. I'm going to get these load tested from a FNG soon and have also ordered a new OBDII scanner to scan the system myself. I hope this turns out to be a battery or alternator issue since I'm currently running without any accessories on which I've spent almost 90k.
	() Thanks

5th July 2018, 16:10	#4
JediKnight BHPian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Banaglore Posts: 647 Thanked: 2,137 Times	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories A badly behaving accessory introducing a "ripple" on the "line" voltage can theoretically cause a sensor data being incorrectly read. I am not sure what is the root cause of your issue but theoretically it is possible for a bad accessory to cause such a problem.
	(8) Thanks

5th July 2018, 17:28	#6
blackasta Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: WB 26 Posts: 3,406 Thanked: 2,917 Times View My Garage	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories Please check if all the electricals, whether factory fitted or aftermarket , are grounded correctly. Faced an issue a few days back (shall elaborate in my ownership thread) where a loose grounding (due to a body work) wrecked havoc with abnormal lights, car stalling, abnormal rpm and what not. All was fixed by just tightening a ground line.
	(4) Thanks

5th July 2018, 19:14	#9
akshay380 BHPian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Goa Posts: 968 Thanked: 1,293 Times	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories Here is my 2p. I had ordered a cheapo OBD scanner and after leaving the same connected to OBD port I used to get strange issues including car not locking properly, all lights in console glowing on and then starting issues once in a while. I disconnected the scanner, reset ECU by disconnecting battery and all has been fine since then.
	(1) Thanks

5th July 2018, 23:50	#11
Chethan B G Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,657 Thanked: 2,057 Times View My Garage	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories Few reasons for Idle RPM increase are; battery is weak or the alternator is not charging properly or the AC compressor/temperature sensor is not working or a bad ground/return path or leak in air intake. If an electrical accessory has to create an issue, then there can be two reasons; either the accessory is defective / of low quality in terms of wiring which has eventually failed or the battery is weak. It is a good idea to start adding one accessory per day. But before that, I would blindly replace the battery if it is more than 3 years old. All the best! Please update! Last edited by SDP : 6th July 2018 at 11:49. Reason: typo
	(1) Thanks

6th July 2018, 01:13	#12
SCORPION BHPian Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Coimbatore Posts: 483 Thanked: 1,999 Times	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories It is possible that the engineer quietly replaced your oxygen sensor to save the dealer workshop from embarrassment. Faulty oxygen sensor in the exhaust manifold can cause rough, erratic idling and can also cause the car to stall. I had a similar issue in one of my earlier cars and the oxygen sensor was the culprit. The car did not display the Check Engine Light.
	(2) Thanks

6th July 2018, 10:51	#13
scorpian BHPian Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: GOA Posts: 824 Thanked: 1,186 Times View My Garage	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories Hi, You will need to isolate all accessories one by one and that should help you pinpoint where exactly the issue is. If you can then start isolating each circuit by removing the respective fuse from its holder and then observe if the issue is resolved or still occurring, if its still present then some other accessory is causing a issue and then you move to that particular fuse. Your best bet is to eliminate each circuit one by one,eventually you will be able to find out whats causing the issue.
	() Thanks

6th July 2018, 18:16	#15
Aroy Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Delhi Posts: 2,582 Thanked: 2,741 Times View My Garage	Re: High RPM due to after-market electrical accessories High idling may be the ECU trying to get sufficient RPM to charge the battery. That can be due to any one of the following : . Battery on its last leg. The normal RPM is not enough to charge. . Alternator has deteriorated, so that it cannot charge at normal idling RPM. . One or more accessory is consuming more power than the alternator can supply at idling. You can home in a step by step manner. . Get the alternator and battery checked by a third party electrical shop, who have the necessary test equipment. This is quite routine - current output for alternator, and discharge test for battery. . In case both are fine, then start by connecting one accessory at a time and check the current consumed. . In case all seems fine, then as others have pointed out it may be an earth loose or a short in harness. You should find the culprit if it is any of the above.
	(2) Thanks