[Traveler]

Originally Posted by JoshMachine

To elaborate on this point, let me put up the concerned diagram for the selector lever assembly:-



The vehicle is to be put in the "P" mode ideally only when you feel that the vehicle would need to be switched off or it is to be in a standstill position for a long time.

Thanks a lot for the details. It makes sense now. P to be used only when parking for a long / extended period with engine shut off.



Thanks!!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by JoshMachine

The incorrect movement also puts a lot of strain on the lever wiring harness, which could result in severe damage to the entire assembly.



The vehicle is to be put in the "P" mode ideally only when you feel that the vehicle would need to be switched off or it is to be in a standstill position for a long time.

Thanks.
How does incorrect movement of a lever put strain on the wiring harness? Could you elaborate.

With the lever in P what is actually locked on a DSG box. On most auto boxes it is usually a mechanical lock up of the A drum, but what is it on a DSG box?
Thanks Jeroen

[JoshMachine]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Thanks.
How does incorrect movement of a lever put strain on the wiring harness? Could you elaborate.

With a sudden/incorrect/improper selector lever movement, there could be unreasonable strain on the associated mesh-like wiring harness which holds the support brackets and the lever assembly. This strain sympton could be in the form of wire chafing or some such issue, potentially leading to a fatal problem of the entire lever assembly malfunctioning and requiring a total lever assembly replacement in the worst case scenario.

With the lever in P what is actually locked on a DSG box. On most auto boxes it is usually a mechanical lock up of the A drum, but what is it on a DSG box?
Thanks Jeroen

The locking phenomenon is perhaps best explained by a combination of the diagram (showing the selector lever assembly) along with the diagram showing the actual locking pin:-





In the above diagram, once the selector lever is shifted to the position "P", the switch E313 transmits the signal to the steering column control unit J527, which in turn "prompts" the solenoid N110 to direct the locking pin towards hatch for "P" via the compression spring. This prevents the locking lever from being moved unintentionally.

And for the reverse process i.e for release, the below diagram can possibly explain the same:-



Let's say, you have switched on the ignition and actuated the foot brake, this will pass a signal from the selector lever sensor unit J527 to supply the solenoid N110 with current.
As a result of this, the locking pin is withdrawn from the locking pin hatch for "P".

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by JoshMachine

With a sudden/incorrect/improper selector lever movement, there could be unreasonable strain on the associated mesh-like wiring harness which holds the support brackets and the lever assembly.

How? The wiring harness doesn't care what electricity passes through it.

The locking phenomenon is perhaps best explained by a combination of the diagram (showing the selector lever assembly) along with the diagram showing the actual locking pin:-

This locks the selector lever, right? Which is probably associated with the various restrictions as to when the driver may engage forward or reverse. What was being spoken of is a lock which is pat of the gear box, which actually prevents the transmission itself moving, not a selector-lever component.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

How? The wiring harness doesn't care what electricity passes through it. This locks the selector lever, right? Which is probably associated with the various restrictions as to when the driver may engage forward or reverse. What was being spoken of is a lock which is pat of the gear box, which actually prevents the transmission itself moving, not a selector-lever component.

Thanks, I do not understand how moving the lever could be a problem on the wiring either. Unless you go completely mental on this gear lever, how can you mess it up?

And yes, I would like to understand when you put a DSG. In park, what actually. Locks up. Somehow the output shaft is locked (I assume). So there is some mechanism that gets activated when you put the gear lever in Park.

Jeroen

[Thad E Ginathom]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I would like to understand when you put a DSG

Google is your friend. Hey, mine too, and via another forum, I found this PDF. Page 22 answers our specific question.

It looks a whole-load tougher mechanism than I had imagined!

(The PDF looks like a generally useful DSG resource: I don't think it was included already?)

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

Google is your friend. Hey, mine too, and via another forum, I found this PDF. Page 22 answers our specific question.

It looks a whole-load tougher mechanism than I had imagined!

Thanks Thad,
Very useful PDF.

I agree this looks like quite a touch mechanism. It certainly looks a lot more robust than on my Jaguar. You hear all these stories about how you need to be careful with putting your car in P. Well, when I look at this, I would not worry too much. Also if the little pawl does brake I do not see much damage being done to the rest of the box. On most regular autoboxes the problem is that the A drum gets damaged. And that is always a big job, because everything needs to come out.

Jeroen

[Thad E Ginathom]

I do not see much damage being done to the rest of the box.

You're the engineer, but my worry would not be the broken pawl or wheel, it would be what happens when other stuff in the box tries to eat those pieces

[JoshMachine]

Gentlemen, apologies for the delay in responding.

Have tried to bunch up similar queries and answer them by referring to some sections from the service training manual.

How? The wiring harness doesn't care what electricity passes through it.

Thanks, I do not understand how moving the lever could be a problem on the wiring either. Unless you go completely mental on this gear lever, how can you mess it up?

Yes, both the above views are right. However, the issue in this case is because of incorrect lever assembly movement (could be due to severe and sudden movements over a period of time), the wiring mesh (comprising the harness within) attached to the assembly may get pinched or chafed.
There is an associated error code "B116229", for which VW had issued a technical service bulletin, asking the advisors to inspect for damage to the wiring harness - resulting in repair or replacing the entire shifter assembly.

What was being spoken of is a lock which is pat of the gear box, which actually prevents the transmission itself moving, not a selector-lever component.

I would like to understand when you put a DSG. In park, what actually. Locks up. Somehow the output shaft is locked (I assume). So there is some mechanism that gets activated when you put the gear lever in Park.

In conjunction to the above diagrams (showing the assembly) in above posts, I realized that I should have added the below ones also for a hopefully complete explanation. My bad for the omission.

All the components coming together to show a sliced view of the assembly integrated into the gearbox:-



The parking lock is integrated into the double-clutch gearbox to ensure that the car is parked securely and to prevent unintentional rolling away when the handbrake is not applied.

And to reiterate, the locking pin is engaged mechanically via a cable between the selector lever and the parking lock lever on the gearbox.
This cable actuates the parking lock.

Here are few more self-explanatory diagrams to illustrate some specific scenarios of the parking lock mechanism.

Scenario 1: Parking lock not actuated



Scenario 2: Parking lock actuated BUT locking pin not engaged



Scenario 3: Parking pin actuated AND locking pin also engaged



And finally, here is a diagram showing how the parking lock gear mates with the output shaft:-

The PDF looks like a generally useful DSG resource: I don't think it was included already?

Thanks for sharing, it is included in the "REFERENCES" section on the first page at this post.

You hear all these stories about how you need to be careful with putting your car in P. Well, when I look at this, I would not worry too much. Also if the little pawl does brake I do not see much damage being done to the rest of the box

You're the engineer, but my worry would not be the broken pawl or wheel, it would be what happens when other stuff in the box tries to eat those pieces

Somehow, I think one needs to be bit careful even if the car is in "P", given that a very significant jolt or push to the vehicle from behind might lead to the tooth of the locking pin getting broken possibly damaging the parking lock gear, with collateral damage to the output shaft of the gearbox.

Hope, I have managed to come to peace now with the above addendums

[GrandTourer]

A wonderful wonderful thread JoshMachine, and a much needed one too.

I didn't understand the DSG box very well; and by that I mean I knew the basic principles of a DCT and I knew that DSG learns and adapts to a driver's style.
This thread has helped me a lot in understanding what goes on underneath the surface.

I however have a hypothetical question for all the experts on the thread.

Suppose I got a brand new car with a DSG, and for the first month just ran it on the Dyno at exactly 60 kmph in 7th gear at about 1200 RPM, while engaging cruise control (I said hypothetical ). Now everyday for those 30 days, I put the car on the dyno, get to 60, engage CC, run it for 333 kms, totaling to about 10k km at the end of 30 days.
What is the DSG box going to learn when there are no variation in the driving for 10k kms?
And what will happen when I finally take the car for a spin outside on day 31?

I know this is not a very tangible question, but I was curious as to whether the box will be as good as new after 30 days (as in not learnt anything), or would it be reluctant on spirited drives later.

Thanks.

[JoshMachine]

Originally Posted by GrandTourer

A wonderful wonderful thread JoshMachine, and a much needed one too.

Thanks GrandTourer.

Suppose I got a brand new car with a DSG, and for the first month just ran it on the Dyno at exactly 60 kmph in 7th gear at about 1200 RPM, while engaging cruise control (I said hypothetical ). Now everyday for those 30 days, I put the car on the dyno, get to 60, engage CC, run it for 333 kms, totaling to about 10k km at the end of 30 days.
What is the DSG box going to learn when there are no variation in the driving for 10k kms?

Since the question is hypothetical, so let me try to answer it hypothetically The DSG won't be able to "learn" much from this scenario.

I had put up some comments related to the adaptation at this post.

And what will happen when I finally take the car for a spin outside on day 31?

Not sure as to what you are expecting in terms of an answer, but the gearbox should function "normally", in my view.

There are generally 2 schools of thought around adaptation - one carried out by the manufacturer under controlled and calibrated driving conditions (for example, controlled acceleration upto a certain tacho limit, up-shifting and down-shifting within a certain rpm range, gradual and hard braking, full throttle etc.) and the other, carried out naturally by car owners/drivers (which will not be calibrated) in regular daily driving.

I know this is not a very tangible question, but I was curious as to whether the box will be as good as new after 30 days (as in not learnt anything), or would it be reluctant on spirited drives later.

I hope the above explanation may have answered this question.

[GrandTourer]

Originally Posted by JoshMachine

....
Not sure as to what you are expecting in terms of an answer, but the gearbox should function "normally", in my view.


....


I hope the above explanation may have answered this question.

Sorry, I should elaborate. If the gearbox has been subjected to sedate operations throughout its life, will it become eager to upshift? Say I'm trying to overtake and depress the A pedal more, it would hesitate to kickdown. But since you mentioned that the gearbox will not "learn" anything on the dyno, I'm assuming that the real learning would begin from day 31, if I'm not wrong.

As I said this was hypothetical. I don't have the means or the patience to carry out this experiment though.
Thank you for your answer

[namit]

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

Great thread! Thanks for the effort in compiling such a detailed, well organised and informative thread on the the DSG.

It is undeniable that VW's DSG in its many forms has had reliability issues world over ever since they have been out in the market. But it is amazing to see VW still sticking with it after all these years and trying to make improvements, releasing software updates etc... Failure rates seem to have dropped from the early days for sure, but still a long way to go to say that they are 100% reliable.

Reliability issues aside, I think the DSG is quite amazing. Luckily both my DSG equipped Polos are running without any issues so far : Polo GT TSI - 24,000 kms and Polo GTI - 11,000 kms. The GTI also comes with paddle shifts and they add a new dimension to the experience. The instantaneous upshifts and downshifts are a real joy. Once you get used to it, it's hard to be entertained by the standard slushbox.

I think the key to keep the DSG from breaking down is to prevent it from getting overheated. Shifting to neutral at signals and shifting to manual mode (1st gear) in crawling traffic : are two practices that have become second nature.

I am new to the world of DSG and if you can help in clarifying if Parking can also be frequently used at signals in place of Neutral ?
Thanks I have been searching for a while on the Dos and Donts with the DSG and I believe you summed it up perfectly.

[JoshMachine]

Originally Posted by namit

I am new to the world of DSG and if you can help in clarifying if Parking can also be frequently used at signals in place of Neutral ?
Thanks I have been searching for a while on the Dos and Donts with the DSG and I believe you summed it up perfectly.

Generally speaking, it is not mandatory/required to switch to "parking" at traffic signals. Even if you switch to "neutral" with the main foot brake applied (ideal scenario) or the hand brake applied, that should be adequate.

This will help in "resting" the clutches and also help in keeping the car stationary.

For more information, you may want to look at - post 1, post 2 and post 3.

Hope this helps

[theMandarin]

@JoshMachine I am a bit late to thank you for consolidating all this information in one place but as they say, better late than never.

I believe you explained this and it is something which i have come across in my own research as well that DSG tries to "learn"/adapt to the drivers pattern so as to optimize gear changes. This would admittedly help the hardware anticipate and therefore further streamline the gear changes so as to improve the driving experience.

This leads me to my question.
A family that owns a DSG equipped car may have multiple people using/driving the car. Taking an example, a very likely scenario would be having three drivers using the car 60%/20%/20% over a week. In such a scenario, wouldn't the DSG struggle to "learn" a driving pattern ?

I am sure in more upmarket cars where there is an option to have driver profiles, this can be addressed by tagging the adaptation to the specific driver profile. But to my knowledge, even this is not enabled by default in many cars which have driver profiles. Judging purely by the information gathered through YouTube, the Octavia has this option to have driver profiles but the customization is restricted to the head unit layout, colors, mirror positions etc.

Curious to hear if you and other members have some information on this.