[mohansrides]

I thought about starting this conversation by simply posting a reply on this thread -

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...dian-cars.html (Best Engines in Indian cars)

But, the thread is from 2004 and the last reply on it is from 2006. So, I didn't think it relevant to today's times; especially considering that since that time, the Indian middle class has grown up on a steady diet of diesel engines.

Personally, I have never owned a diesel car; and I must confess that I do not find the prospect of owning one very attractive. But, own cars one must since it almost a karmic duty (for some of us at least); and if I have to go the diesel route for my next car, then so be it. But, before I take any drastic and life-altering steps, I thought that I will take the temperature here one more time.

My question to this esteemed forum is, which are the best petrol engines in India today? We are all very familiar with the 1.2 liter Fiat sourced engine that powers the Swift, the Baleno and now even the WagonR. This is sweet engine and is quite lovely. But, it is quite old and it is undoubtedly an engine for small cars more suited to the city. So, I am led to think that in our vast landscape of cars, there have to be other capable petrol engines worth considering and buying. Engines with some decent torque and highway abilities. But, surprise surprise; as far as I can tell, no other petrol engine has achieved the same amount of notoriety as Maruti's 1.2 L.

Am I wrong? If yes, please educate me and make me a happy man.

P. S.

Incidentally, I know that the new Dragon series from Ford has been written about a bit. But, 3 pot engines sound as unrefined as most diesels. At least, that is my rather uninformed opinion.

[bansal.sushant]

When we are talking about petrol engines, we just can not ignore the sweet sweet i-VTEC of Honda! It such a lovely engine, both refined and frugal.

It is also fun on the highways, especially when the "VTEC kicks in, yo!".

[Rajeevraj]

The 1.2 TSI from VW and the 1.4 TJet from Fiat. Not new engines by any stretch of imagination. But I don't think anything else can beat these turbo petrol's in the mass market range.

[WhiteKnight]

Skoda/VW 1.8 TSI.

Why,
Supremely smooth.
Flexible- Can go fast, can do graveyard shift, can play family man.
Frugal- For the power it delivers.

Simply put, you drive a car with it, you might be unhappy with everything else.

[VKumar]

Ford 1.5 Dragon Ti-VCT

The 3 cylinder engine that makes even a few 4 cylinder counterparts look unrefined. An engine that is very close to i-VTEC if not better; I find it better though.

Where the 1.5 Dragon still beats the i-VTEC is when it comes to overall driveability. IMO the best tuned petrol motor one can get under 15 lac today is the 1.5 Dragon from Ford. The guys have just got the power delivery and refinement part absolutely spot on.

[GrandTourer]

For me it's the 1.2 TSI from VW. Explosive performance for an engine of that size, beautifully mated to DSG in the Polo GT. Haven't driven the Vento with the same combo, so not sure how it performs in that car.
The second close engine would have been the old Civic 1.8 i-vtec. It's been continued in the new car, but sadly feels inadequate, I hear.
I didn't mention the 1.8 TSI in Octavia since I didn't drive it yet.

OP/Mods: why not start a vote in this thread?

[vikred]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

We are all very familiar with the 1.2 liter Fiat sourced engine that powers the Swift, the Baleno and now even the WagonR. This is sweet engine and is quite lovely. But, it is quite old and it is undoubtedly an engine for small cars more suited to the city.

Suzuki's 1.2l petrol engine (K12M) is not sourced from Fiat. It's their diesel engine that is from the Italian manufacturer. I had owned a car with the K12M engine before selling it off in 2017. So, I can vouch for its rev-happiness, refinement, mileage (never below 14km/l even in city conditions) and performance. However, the NVH could have been better. This is not the engine's fault though. The car could have used more insulation.

Hyundai's 1.2 is also a great engine: refined and well-tuned.

Because of our country's excise duty (<1200cc petrol engines have lower excise duty), we are all stuck with underpowered cars in the <₹10 lakh segment.

[GTO]

Really depends on the segment, I guess.

Among the hatchbacks, my favourites are Maruti's 1.2L K-Series & Hyundai's 1.2L Kappa. Both are superb engines. These really make the car. As an example, the 1.2L has transformed the character of the new WagonR. I actually enjoyed revving that breadbox around Mumbai.

Move a bit higher and I love what Ford has accomplished with its triple-cylinders. The EcoSport's 1.5L is damn good and makes the much-hyped EcoBoost irrelevant. I also like the Etios' 1.5L for its driveability.

VW's TSIs are fantastic too! The 1.2L & 1.8L are pretty much the best in their respective segments.

Among the larger N/A petrols, the City's 1.5L has always been and remains the benchmark. It is a jewel of an engine. Butter-smooth and very rev-happy. Hyundai's 1.6L is almost as impressive and shows just how the Koreans have bridged the gap to the Japanese.

There is a lot of mediocrity too, which is surprising as building a good petrol is no rocket-science. Example, the 1.5L in the overpriced Yaris.

[Iyencar]

Originally Posted by GTO

a
VW's TSIs are fantastic too! The 1.2L & 1.8L are pretty much the best in their respective segments.

In your Polo review you have mentioned that the 1.2 is very commuter, does not hit the sweet spot and lacks refinement. So, are you referring to the 1.2 in the GT in your post above? Thanks.

[xcentrk]

Smaller Engine : 1.2L VTVT & 1.2L K - Rev happy and has lot of character for such a small displacement engine

Mid-Sized Engine: Nothing beats 1.5L iVTEC. No, 1.6L VTVT doesn't hold a candle against this iVTEC and one has to drive to believe it. 1.5L Toyota is just OK, but scores good in terms of drive ability which I believe is lacking in VTVT. Not sure about it in the latest Verna.

Move up higher, I only drove 1.8L/2.4L VTEC & 1.8L TSI.

Drove 2.4L Accord and damn what an engine it is. I like the whine of the engine and once it turns into roar, you will get addicted. In my POV, TSI isn't much of fun against VTEC. Be it 1.8 or 2.4. (Slowly I'm becoming a Honda fanboy?)

[Nav-i-gator]

I would segregate into 2 buckets (only till 15L bracket - the cars that I have driven enough to form an opinion):

1. Ease of driving (Good low end response from stand-still/in bumper to bumper traffic, and strong mid range; but not so good at high RPMs):

Maruti's 800CC 3-cylinder
Hyundai 1.2L and 1.6L
Ford's 1.2L & 1.5L 3-cylinders

These engines (and cars sporting them) are easy and fun to drive within city confines and do the job well on highways too.

2. Fun to simply floor the pedal and keep pulling till very high revv bands, but relatively slow off-the block/starting from stand-still/in bumper to bumper traffic

VW 1.2L TSI
Honda 1.2L & 1.5L
Tata 1.2L 3 Cylinder (the JTP tune)


These are my opinions.

[mohansrides]

Well, this thread has certainly come alive with opinions.

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

The 1.2 TSI from VW and the 1.4 TJet from Fiat. Not new engines by any stretch of imagination. But I don't think anything else can beat these turbo petrol's in the mass market range.

Interesting. I have only heard of good diesel engines from VW (and Fiat and Ford) in India.

Originally Posted by avdhesh15

1.5 iVTEC. Enough said (in the region below 1.5).

Actually, Honda's 1.5 L occurred to me immediately after I submitted my original post. I chose to not edit my post as I felt sure that someone else would bring it up. Thanks for doing so.

You're right. The only upside to an otherwise staid BR-V is that 1.5 L.

Originally Posted by WhiteKnight

Skoda/VW 1.8 TSI.

Why,
Supremely smooth.
Flexible- Can go fast, can do graveyard shift, can play family man.
Frugal- For the power it delivers.

Simply put, you drive a car with it, you might be unhappy with everything else.

Thank you. Now, I will try and see if I can TD the car.

Originally Posted by VKumar

Ford 1.5 Dragon Ti-VCT

The 3 cylinder engine that makes even a few 4 cylinder counterparts look unrefined. An engine that is very close to i-VTEC if not better; I find it better though.

Where the 1.5 Dragon still beats the i-VTEC is when it comes to overall driveability. IMO the best tuned petrol motor one can get under 15 lac today is the 1.5 Dragon from Ford. The guys have just got the power delivery and refinement part absolutely spot on.

As I said in my original post, the new Dragon 3 cylinder has been much marketed. But, our own reviewers pointed out that it is less refined than most 4 pot engines.

Originally Posted by GrandTourer

For me it's the 1.2 TSI from VW. Explosive performance for an engine of that size, beautifully mated to DSG in the Polo GT. Haven't driven the Vento with the same combo, so not sure how it performs in that car.

The second close engine would have been the old Civic 1.8 i-vtec. It's been continued in the new car, but sadly feels inadequate, I hear.
I didn't mention the 1.8 TSI in Octavia since I didn't drive it yet.

OP/Mods: why not start a vote in this thread?

Indeed! A poll would be just the thing for this thread. But, I would not be able to start it as I am not aware of all petrol offerings in the market. Maybe one of the mods could do it.

Originally Posted by vikred

Suzuki's 1.2l petrol engine (K12M) is not sourced from Fiat. It's their diesel engine that is from the Italian manufacturer. I had owned a car with the K12M engine before selling it off in 2017. So, I can vouch for its rev-happiness, refinement, mileage (never below 14km/l even in city conditions) and performance. However, the NVH could have been better. This is not the engine's fault though. The car could have used more insulation.

Hyundai's 1.2 is also a great engine: refined and well-tuned.

Because of our country's excise duty (<1200cc petrol engines have lower excise duty), we are all stuck with underpowered cars in the <₹10 lakh segment.

You said it. We have such shabby engines even after paying a million rupees. My experience with the K12 differs slightly from yours. It is a good engine no doubt. But, I feel that it clearly has limitations. The K12 engine that I currently have feels adequate in the city. But, with a full load, it wheezes perceptibly even on slight inclines. The situation gets worse on the highway on family road trips. Hitting 100 takes forever. Also, my car consistently gives me 8 to 9 kmpl. Nothing more. On highway trips, it gives me 12 maybe. That's it. I don't feel the pinch all that much because my yearly mileage is less than 5k kms. We mostly potter around in the city and take maybe one highway trip once in 2 years.

So, while I am happy with this engine for the needs it has served, I really want to do better next time around.

Originally Posted by GTO

Really depends on the segment, I guess.

Among the hatchbacks...

Move a bit higher....

Among the larger N/A petrols....

There is a lot of mediocrity too, which is surprising as building a good petrol is no rocket-science. Example, the 1.5L in the overpriced Yaris.

Originally Posted by Iyencar

In your Polo review you have mentioned that the 1.2 is very commuter, does not hit the sweet spot and lacks refinement. So, are you referring to the 1.2 in the GT in your post above? Thanks.

Thanks GTO for that big list. But, Iyencar is right. Our car reviews consistently diss the petrol engines in favour of their diesel counterparts. The only enthusiastic endorsement from Team BHP that I remember was for Maruti's K12.

So, maybe we need to recalibrate our mental benchmarks and look at the petrols with fresh eyes? On that note, the poll that someone has mentioned here would be a good place to start.

Originally Posted by xcentrk

Smaller Engine : 1.2L VTVT & 1.2L K - Rev happy and has lot of character for such a small displacement engine

Mid-Sized Engine: Nothing beats 1.5L iVTEC. No, 1.6L VTVT doesn't hold a candle against this iVTEC and one has to drive to believe it. 1.5L Toyota is just OK, but scores good in terms of drive ability which I believe is lacking in VTVT. Not sure about it in the latest Verna.

Move up higher, I only drove 1.8L/2.4L VTEC & 1.8L TSI.

Drove 2.4L Accord and damn what an engine it is. I like the whine of the engine and once it turns into roar, you will get addicted. In my POV, TSI isn't much of fun against VTEC. Be it 1.8 or 2.4. (Slowly I'm becoming a Honda fanboy?)

So, are you saying that the 1.8 liter in the Skoda and the VW are not that great?

[mukeshgoel]

Originally Posted by Iyencar

So, are you referring to the 1.2 in the GT in your post above? Thanks.

Yes. I guess you didn't read "TSIs" in GTO's post.

VW's TSIs are fantastic too! The 1.2L & 1.8L are pretty much the best in their respective segments.

[xcentrk]

Originally Posted by mohansrides

So, are you saying that the 1.8 liter in the Skoda and the VW are not that great?

Coming to the point, Of course they are great. The TSI is one of the great engine among the lot and I enjoyed pushing it. No doubt about that.

But for me, when you place 1.8L VTEC and TSI next to each other, I would pick VTEC without any doubt. Owing to it's rev-happy nature, unbelievably awesome refinement(which TSI lacks in my option) and the sweet sounding motor which is addicting. I didn't mean the 0-100 timings or the top speed, it's just I prefer VTECH for it's unique character and there is nothing against TSI. If someone is going to gift me Octavia 1.8 TSI, I don't mind.

When it comes to refinement, nothing beats VTEC. Hope you agree with me.

[mohansrides]

What is our collective opinion about these two engines?

1.) The 1.4 L turbo petrol in the Jeep Compass? On the face of it, this spec looks woefully inadequate for a 20 lac car.

2.) The NA 1.5 L in the Toyota Yaris. This too looks inadequate for a 17 lac car.

Someone mentioned in this thread that we are cursed with under-powered engines in the segment below 10 lacs. The way I see it, the story is no different in the segment above either. At least that is what my research is telling me. Unless one really splurges and goes into the 20 lac + segment, one cannot get a decent petrol engine; and even then the pickings are slim.

In this country, we will never get past the kitna deti hai mentality, and car makers will always be straitjacketed by meaningless excise duty regulations.

The irony is that smaller engines aren't necessarily better for the environment or for cost savings. Indeed, my 1.2 L petrol gives me worse mileage (7 to 9 kmpl consistently) than the 2.4 L inline 4 in my previous car in the US. Blame it on bad roads, hopeless traffic and poor quality fuel. All in all, we are up the creek as car owners in this country.