[ashwinprakas]

Hi Everyone,


This is with regards to a fellow enthusiast's Suzuki Ertiga that he picked up a short while ago, would not be disclosing the individuals name for privacy reasons but those of you who're into 2 Strokes might have come across his handle on several online communities (except TeamBhp, hence why I'm the one posting) its 'KB100' (not a BHPian), the reason for me mentioning this is to let the readers know that the enthusiast in question is mechanically competent enough to rebuild motorcycles on his own though its his first time venturing into cagers.

The car in question has done 260km's to date and is brand new, a couple of days ago when the owner tried to use the brakes they seem to have lost complete pressure and would only mildly apply if you floor the pedal.

The e-brake works fine as its not part of the hydraulic system.

On calling up MASS they'd sent their personnel who went with the standard procedure of bleeding the lines but that did not turn out fruitful and have suggested to tow the car to their service station in the upcoming days.

KB100 has confirmed that prior to calling MASS he'd checked the usual suspects i.e leaks and fluid level drop, but nothing seems to be out of order.

As of now the service people are also clueless about the matter.

Hence it would be of help if the technical experts here could chime in with their theories so that we'd be able to be on top of things even if MASS takes over.

This seems to be an isolated issue as per MASS hence experiences of other Ertiga owners would also be of help.

Thanks in advance,
A.P. & KB100.

[sumeethaldankar]

Well I really don't know about the technical part but I can advise the below.

Send email to Maruti and log a formal complaint regarding same. Once Maruti is aware of the problem they will make sure the dealer will respond even better.

Ask your friend to get a courtesy car from Maurti while his car is in the workshop. Warranty based repairs can take time.

My '97 800 had developed a leak at the rear drum brakes when the car was less than 1 year old. I got it fixed and kept the car for 17 years. So I hope your friend does not give up on his new Ertiga too soon.

[Jeroen]

It is extremely rare on a new car for the brakes to fail, obviously. The good news, when something fails completely the diagnosis is usually easy. It is likely to be the master cylinder or something that has snapped. Any obvious signs of brake fluid leaking? I would be skeptical if they claim air in the system and just bleed the system.

Would be interesting to hear what it was.

[Thermodynamics]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

the brakes they seem to have lost complete pressure and would only mildly apply if you floor the pedal.

The e-brake works fine as its not part of the hydraulic system.

the standard procedure of bleeding the lines but that did not turn out fruitful

the usual suspects i.e leaks and fluid level drop, but nothing seems to be out of order.

Sorry to hear that a brand new car has developed this issue. Usually, MSIL quality controls are very good but nothing is 100% absolute anyway.

Some years back there was a similar issue with Swift. First and second generation swifts were prone to develop issues. The entire braking system should be checked. If there are no leaks, as Jeroen pointed it could very well be the master cylinder or a faulty vacuum pump or even a software bug. Since braking is of paramount importance, I suggest to take the car to a good service centre and request them to test the whole braking system from pedal to brake pads and everything in between including ECU.

Quoting my previous experience with swift.

Originally Posted by Thermodynamics

Solved it!

I finally found a solution to this eerie problem after a long struggle and here is my story.

Car : Swift LDI

When you step on that pedal at slow speeds, it feels like a rock and the vehicle continues to move. Scary while driving downhill, in bumper to bumper traffic, in a traffic signal, on a speed bump adjacent to school when kids are crossing.

I took it to MS service center, they replaced things one after another. Quite frankly, the entire breaking system.

Trial 1: Checked break oil levels (they look OK, anyway let us top it up)
Result: No improvement

Trial 2: Changed break pads (yeah they might have worn out, well not so badly)
Result: No improvement

Trial 3: The disc could be problematic. let us put brand new front discs
Result: No improvement, MS guys told me, new discs will take some time for their polish surface to wear and grip well with break pads .

Trial 4: Change the break oil, there could be air lock in the hydraulics
Result: No improvement

Trial 5: Sir, lets do software fix of engine control unit to correct for rpm dropping too low for the alternator to generate enough vacuum
Result: No improvement

Trial 6: Let us change the break booster
Result: No improvement

Trial 7: It has to be then a failing alternator or a faulty vacuum pump. Changed the vacuum pump
Result: Yes it worked.

The actual fault in my case was a faulty vacuum pump, but it is not easy to make that out.

I found a comprehensive information on the topic else where (link).
Hope it helps!

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

a couple of days ago when the owner tried to use the brakes they seem to have lost complete pressure and would only mildly apply if you floor the pedal. The e-brake works fine as its not part of the hydraulic system.

I had faced the exact same issue in my old Optra 10 years ago.

Problem: Rats! They had bitten some pipes/tubes carrying the brake fluid.

Ask the service technician to check the piping.

[Sutripta]

^^^
Whatever happened to dual circuit = failsafe from single point of leakage.

It is a statuary requirement, but wonder if ARAI checks for it. They had a stall at Auto Expo 2018, and I asked them on this very point. The gentlemen manning the counter were entirely clueless.

The reason why I had asked this was because I have also faced this. It was somebody else car. Tracked it down to a faulty design in the reservoir, which I put down to a local spare.

For KB100 likely culprit is master cylinder.

Regards
Sutripta

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Whatever happened to dual circuit = failsafe from single point of leakage.

Just like this Ertiga case, the Optra's brakes "sort of" worked. I felt loss of pressure, the brake pedal sank in but the car eventually slowed down to a halt (from 20 kmph to zero).

[boniver]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Problem: Rats! They had bitten some pipes/tubes carrying the brake fluid.

Ask the service technician to check the piping.

If this was the case, the fluid would have leaked out, but when OP's friend checked the fluid levels, everything seemed to be in order. Also, a drop in brake fluid level would have been immediately detected by the technicians at MASS, but apparently they too are clueless. It's most probably a faulty part from the factory itself.

Quoting OP below:

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

KB100 has confirmed that prior to calling MASS he'd checked the usual suspects i.e leaks and fluid level drop, but nothing seems to be out of order.

As of now the service people are also clueless about the matter.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by boniver

If this was the case, the fluid would have leaked out, but when OP's friend checked the fluid levels, everything seemed to be in order. Also, a drop in brake fluid level would have been immediately detected by the technicians at MASS, but apparently they too are clueless. It's most probably a faulty part from the factory itself.

There was a tiny amount of leak where the rat bite happened. Rat bites do not cause large holes in the rubber piping. Brake fluid did not come gushing out of that hole.

Getting the technicians to check the Ertiga's brake piping is what I recommend to OP's friend. But yeah, the problem could lie elsewhere.

[ashwinprakas]

Hey guys,

First of all KB100 would like to thank you for your responses. He's shared a video to give you a better idea.

Brake Failure: Brand New Suzuki Ertiga 2019

As you can see with the motor OFF i.e no assistance from booster the pedal can still be floored. With the motor ON, the pedal goes down easily without any resistance, you can see KB100 pushing it down with ease with only one finger.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Would be interesting to hear what

Originally Posted by Thermodynamics

If there are no leaks, as Jeroen pointed it could very well be the master cylinder or a faulty vacuum pump or even a software bug.

Originally Posted by SmartCat

Ask the service technician to check the piping.

Originally Posted by Sutripta

For KB100 likely culprit is master cylinder.

There are no leaks which has been confirmed, I've experienced a brake booster issue where it sucked out my fluid causing it to dip lower than the recommended level but that is not the case here as the level remains steady.

The system has already been bled by MASS which ruled out air in the system.

There is no ABS Error and KB100 has also hooked up a Creader 4001 to confirm the same.

Everything points to the MC seals not maintaining pressure as the pedal can be floored even with the engine off. Since the car is literally brand new we're waiting for MASS to come collect it for further diagnosis.

Though it is real disheartening to have to see them tow a brand new vehicle to SVC as flat bed options isn't offered.

The car had 103 km's on the odo at the time of delivery and the reason stated was that the car had to be driven to Kollam from Trivandrum, so all in all KB100 has only done 157km's on it, which is really troubling especially for a first time car owner.

OT: The KB100 being referred to here is not the same KB100 who is an inactive member on TeamBhp, thank you greenhorn for pointing it out, mentioning the same to avoid any confusion. The owner who is being mentioned here as KB100 is not a member on TeamBhp.

Regards,
A.P.

[scorpian]

To me it looks like a Brake Booster/Master Cylinder failure, could be internal issue and not being able to hold pressure.
Seems like a component failure and probably maruti should check if a particular batch had a issue, if not then just poor quality control.

But it does a red flag as the last anybody would want is such a critical component failing.

[swapk53]

Originally Posted by ashwinprakas

As of now the service people are also clueless about the matter.

Hence it would be of help if the technical experts here could chime in with their theories so that we'd be able to be on top of things even if MASS takes over.

This seems to be an isolated issue as per MASS hence experiences of other Ertiga owners would also be of help.

Thanks in advance,
A.P. & KB100.

Was facing the somewhat similar issue of brakes getting floored and soft on my Alto800 CNG since the day I bought it. Every time in each and every service I used to point out the issue to MSIL. Also various number of times people from head office of MSIL to take a look at the issue. Their conclusion was as the engine capacity is 800cc and as it is on CNG so the engine cannot make enough vacuum if it is applied slowly or gradually. Their solution was: Just slam on the brakes and don't push it gradually as we do. I was not convinced with their solution and fought with them for about a month and refused to take back my car from service centre unless the problem was resolved.
They checked each and everything but wouldn't find the root cause as the problem only happed when the car was on CNG mode and ac was turned ON. Without AC the brakes were spot on.
Lastly as I was refusing to take my car back as a resolution, they replaced my whole brake booster assembly along with master cylinder. And that was it. Since then haven't faced the same issue again.

[SkyWraith]

I faced a similar issue with my Pre-owned Swift. Mine did not stop altogether but the bite was like 30-40% depending on the speed I was doing. I faced the horror of this issue while doing 80 on a National highway. Luckily I engaged the hand brake and was able to stop my car inches from the previous car. Drove slowly back home.
At the Maruti Service Centre the SA checked and told me that it was a know software issue and they would need to take my car to the Maruti Suzuki Regional Office in Kolkata to apply the Software fix. If that did not sort the issue then the Brake boosters might be failing and would need to be changed.
Suprisingly, the software fix sorted the issue in mine.
Hope it helps.

[ashwinprakas]

Originally Posted by scorpian

To me it looks like a Brake Booster/Master Cylinder failure

Originally Posted by swapk53

Lastly as I was refusing to take my car back as a resolution, they replaced my whole brake booster assembly along with master cylinder. And that was it. Since then haven't faced the same issue again.

Originally Posted by SkyWraith

If that did not sort the issue then the Brake boosters might be failing and would need to be changed.
Suprisingly, the software fix sorted the issue in mine.
Hope it helps.

Earlier today KB100 had send a stinker mail to MSIL regarding the issue at hand and that seems to have sped up their response.

Though initially they claimed the issue to be from the MC but later on retracted the statement after a Mr. Vijaypal Singh intervened via conference call and said it was the Booster at fault, now finally they've finalized it to be an issue with the MC, they have tracked a part at Allepey and have promised to have the issue resolved by tomorrow.

KB100 did mention that after the issue gained traction on TeamBhp the tone of the advisers have changed to a more apologetic one, which is a good thing for the Indian automotive scene as a whole, special thanks to those members who've provided suggestions to help.

KB100 is pushing for a complete check with MC and Booster replacement but they finally seem to conclude that it is the MC alone that is at fault, he would not rest until the issue is resolved 100% because other than inconveniences this is a matter of principle and personal safety.

He would check in with Sarathy Maruti Suzuki and report tomorrow with any updates as the car is with them.

Thanks and Regards,
A.P. & KB100.

[bkc]

My guess is also Master cylinder. If the Vacuum pump is at fault, the pumper pedal should atleast be hard (while the engine is off).
The seals in the MC should be faulty; the fluid level won't reduce if the seals are faulty, the fluid will not be pumped into lines to increase the pressure.

Unavailable old MC's are repaired using seal kits, but this is the part that should never be repaired but replaced.

I have a unused spare MC of optra magnum, had bought due to spongy brake feel, but, later it turned out to be the vacuum hose.

Don't worry, MC replacement shall solve it.