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Old 22nd August 2020, 13:24   #16
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
A long time ago, the owner of the FNG where I service my Scorpio had told me to ensure that the temp gauge needle reaches optimum operating temperature, before indulging in any spirited driving at high rpms. Not sure if this is needed in newer cars prior to DPF cleaning, but just thought of mentioning it as a word of caution.
Ofcourse this is needed. The reason is because the oil starts circulating from the sump below to the top better at higher temps. The viscosity reduces and flows easily to the smaller nooks and crannies.

Revving on cold start means oil circulation to those areas may cause metal to metal contact as oil hasn't reached there.

This is another reason why short drives are not beneficial.
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Old 22nd August 2020, 16:15   #17
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR View Post
Attaching the relevant section from Harrier BS6 owners manual for reference -
.
I drive a Golf TDI Bluemotion here in Netherlands and had similar advice from the service workshop though I never had to do it yet (Thanks to lots of highway driving).
Advice was to drive the car above 3k rpm for 15 minutes in highway.


Having said, Covid has caused a lot less of highway driving these days. Hoping that occational highway drives are still doing the job.
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Old 24th August 2020, 11:15   #18
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
It's not just the DPF that needs to be purged, it's also the LNT. Unlike the bigger SUV's the Seltos uses a LNT+DPF vs SCR+DPF.
Hi Vid, your info on DPF thing is really helping a lot to understand this new tech that has 'hit' Diesel lovers post the BS6. A quick question though, we're planning to get the KIA Sonet Diesel AT, primarily for my dad. His daily commute is around 10-12 KMS, with 50:50 City:Highway conditions. The car will also be taken on the highways over the weekend spanning around 60-70 kms at minimum. Will this DPF thing pose a problem for our kinda usage? Since, the Sonet AT will share the exact same engine of the Seltos, I assume it will have all these characteristics features pertaining to the DPF and others, even though being a sub-4 metre car.
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Old 24th August 2020, 11:44   #19
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
It's not just the DPF that needs to be purged, it's also the LNT. Unlike the bigger SUV's the Seltos uses a LNT+DPF vs SCR+DPF.

In the SCR, you use Urea fluid to purge the system whereas in LNT system you have to do the italian tune up driving once in a while.
Hi Vid,
Do you mean to say that in a setup with SCR+DPF, is the cleaning taken care automatically ? Is the "Italian tune up" needed only for DPF+LNT setup ? I guess NOT by taking Innova as an example ( > 2000cc )
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Old 24th August 2020, 11:44   #20
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

Good thread. Posting a question for a friend: Are there any fuel additives to increase the life of a diesel engine with a DPF? Also, what are the extra maintenance costs due to DPFs in the long term?
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
- Go for a long drive on the highway .
Slightly
This helps in ANY car. I once drive mom's Getz at 90 km/h for about 20 km on NICE road and she was amazed by the smoothness the next day. The car had not seen a highway for over 6 years.

Guess the combination of constant high speed (need NOT be 150 km/h) enables a better flow of lubrication (engine/transmission) & coolant (radiator.) The forced convection due to high-speed air also helps.
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Old 24th August 2020, 13:27   #21
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by ashvek3141 View Post
Hi Vid, your info on DPF thing is really helping a lot to understand this new tech that has 'hit' Diesel lovers post the BS6. A quick question though, we're planning to get the KIA Sonet Diesel AT, primarily for my dad. His daily commute is around 10-12 KMS, with 50:50 City:Highway conditions. The car will also be taken on the highways over the weekend spanning around 60-70 kms at minimum. Will this DPF thing pose a problem for our kinda usage? Since, the Sonet AT will share the exact same engine of the Seltos, I assume it will have all these characteristics features pertaining to the DPF and others, even though being a sub-4 metre car.
Yup, the diesel Sonet has the same engine detuned so expect the emission system to be similar.

Based on your driving cycle and knowing Goa roads don't have traffic like crowded cities, it is pretty safe to for a diesel in your case. I don't see the DPF creating any problems for this driving cycle as there will be plenty of driving on open roads and higher gears, rpms.

However since you're in Goa, aren't diesel fuel prices significantly higher? And being in Goa, with less traffic and relaxed driving, the 1.0L DCT is not a bad choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sgm View Post
Hi Vid,
Do you mean to say that in a setup with SCR+DPF, is the cleaning taken care automatically ? Is the "Italian tune up" needed only for DPF+LNT setup ? I guess NOT by taking Innova as an example ( > 2000cc )
Whether SCR or LNT with DPF, the cleaning is automatic if the driving cycle involves higher rpm's with highway drives and open roads.

However if you are stuck in city and can't drive even above 60kmph and consistently at lower rpm's then you need to do an Italian tune up or forced highway drive at high rpm's.

However only incase of the Innova can you do it manually in a parked car.

In the Harrier which uses same DPF+SCR with Urea fluid as the Innova system, it will ask you to drive at higher rpm when the warning light comes on.

This will be same case in Kia, Hyundai as well.
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Old 24th August 2020, 14:28   #22
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Yup, the diesel Sonet has the same engine detuned so expect the emission system to be similar.
Thanks for your quick reply Vid!
Well please correct me if I’m wrong, the detuned state is ONLY for the Diesel Manual belting out a 100 horses; whereas the Diesel AT which I’m looking for is the EXACT same engine of the Seltos producing 113 horses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
Based on your driving cycle and knowing Goa roads don't have traffic like crowded cities, it is pretty safe to for a diesel in your case. I don't see the DPF creating any problems for this driving cycle as there will be plenty of driving on open roads and higher gears, rpms.
Yes, absolutely! We seldom see traffic like Mumbai or Bangaluru. Also, the traffic jams are a rare occasion just incase some idiot has messed up in the middle which may lead to a pile up. Otherwise, its a slow moving traffic in the capital city. Not even stop-go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vid6639 View Post
However since you're in Goa, aren't diesel fuel prices significantly higher? And being in Goa, with less traffic and relaxed driving, the 1.0L DCT is not a bad choice.
No, infact the diesel is ₹2/- cheaper then petrol. That’s it! With the dynamic fuel prices, even that gap narrows down to a ₹1/- on some days.
Frankly speaking me & my dad both love driving Diesel cars & having owned two iterations of Swift Diesels since 2007, it’s hard to not drive a torquey diesel anymore. Added advantage is the fuel economy too.
One of my good friend has a Venue DCT & has exact same driving conditions as that of mine & he claims an average efficiency of 12-13 kmpl at best!
Plus we already have a Petrol Creta in our garage. Hence, the inclination towards the Diesel.

Last edited by ashvek3141 : 24th August 2020 at 14:32.
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Old 24th August 2020, 14:43   #23
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

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Originally Posted by sv97 View Post
What are your thoughts on the DPF issues if driving is primarily in city?

Would you suggest the DCT over the diesel then?
To put your question more clearly, you ask, whether the Petrol+DCT combo or the Diesel+Torque converter AT is suggested?

If my driving is primarily within city, then I would opt for a Petrol+DCT. Kia seltos uses a 1.4L Turbo Gasoline Direct Injection Engine. GDI engines are the most advanced type of Petrol engines and have a very good combination of torque and power, which translates to peppy driving and fuel economy. Let's say you drive 50000kms in 4 years predominantly city, then suppose you get a mileage of 13kmpl with petrol and 16kmpl with diesel, on an average. Suppose if the fuel prices of Petrol-86INR/L and Diesel-80INR/L are considered, then you will be paying a cost difference of 62000INR more in case of Petrol [{(50000/13)-(50000/16)}*86]. This means there is certainly a price difference between Petrol and Diesel in terms of Fuel+purchase price. But the maintenance/insurance/tax costs are something not factored in here. I will leave this to you to check and the calculation varies based on the number of kilometers you are planning to drive. If you drive more, the difference might be higher.

Diesel might turn out cheaper depending on your usage. There is a tangible benefit, but the petrol has a major intangible benefit ie peace of mind advantage. You don't have to worry about waiting in the traffic or start up on a cold morning with a noisy diesel car with higher vibrations, but rather in a low vibrational petrol car which makes your city commutes a bit more pleasant.

Then you don't have to worry about taking your cars on a long drive solely for the purpose of Regenerating your car's DPF. Life is too short for these sort of activities, unless you like spending time to regenerate your DPF. You could better spend the time with your loved ones, doing your hobby or reading informative posts on TBhp.

By the way, Hyundai 1.6L T-GDi engine (1.4L is almost the same with less displacement) has won the best engine award for 2020 (source).

Last edited by Aditya : 25th August 2020 at 06:37. Reason: As requested
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Old 24th August 2020, 15:51   #24
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by ashvek3141 View Post
Thanks for your quick reply Vid!
Well please correct me if Iím wrong, the detuned state is ONLY for the Diesel Manual belting out a 100 horses; whereas the Diesel AT which Iím looking for is the EXACT same engine of the Seltos producing 113 horses.
Yup I had missed the diesel AT is same power as Seltos. That should be seriously good fun to drive.


Quote:
Frankly speaking me & my dad both love driving Diesel cars & having owned two iterations of Swift Diesels since 2007, itís hard to not drive a torquey diesel anymore. Added advantage is the fuel economy too.
One of my good friend has a Venue DCT & has exact same driving conditions as that of mine & he claims an average efficiency of 12-13 kmpl at best!
Plus we already have a Petrol Creta in our garage. Hence, the inclination towards the Diesel.
If you have a Creta Petrol already and like diesels then Kia Sonet should be an easy pick. I had overlooked the 113BHP tune and that looks even more enticing now.

BS6 for your case is a non issue. For us city dwellers its something to keep in mind.
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Old 24th August 2020, 20:32   #25
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

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Originally Posted by carthick1000 View Post
Let's say you drive 50000kms in 4 years predominantly city, then suppose you get a mileage of 13kmpl with petrol and 16kmpl with diesel, on an average. Then if the fuel price difference of 6 Rs./Liter between Petrol and Diesel are considered, then you will be paying a cost difference of ~4350Rs. more in case of Petrol [{(50000/13)-(50000/16)}*6].
I believe there is a mistake in this calculation. And the value you are getting is too less to be true with all the fuel efficiency hype surrounding diesels.

Taking your assumptions:
Distance: 50,000 km.
Petrol price: INR 86/L
Diesel price: INR 80/L
Petrol FE: 13km/L
Diesel FE: 16km/L

Total petrol consumed = (50,000 km/13 km/L) = 3846.15L.

Total diesel consumed = (50,000 km/16 km/L) = 3125L.

Amount spent on petrol = 3846.15L X INR 87/L = INR 330,768.90.

Amount spent on diesel = 3125L X INR 80/L = INR 250,000.

Savings on diesel vs. petrol = INR 80,768.90 in 4 years.

So, the fuel benefit of Diesel is still considerable. Though your calculations look correct and logical at the first glance, I believe we can't simply divide by 6 as base prices of both are different.
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Old 24th August 2020, 20:38   #26
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Default Re: Diesel DPF clogging due to short city commutes

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Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
Ideally, all manufacturers should put an Innova style DPF regen button on the car, that will maintain the engine at the required RPM for the required time in neutral when stationary.
I agree! In fact, with a bit of programming, the car can automatically do it whenever the vehicle is in neutral with a small message on the dash indicating that it's a normal process.
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Old 24th August 2020, 21:22   #27
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

Quote:
Originally Posted by SansGT View Post
I believe there is a mistake in this calculation. And the value you are getting is too less to be true with all the fuel efficiency hype surrounding diesels.

Taking your assumptions:
Distance: 50,000 km.
Petrol price: INR 86/L
Diesel price: INR 80/L
Petrol FE: 13km/L
Diesel FE: 16km/L

Total petrol consumed = (50,000 km/13 km/L) = 3846.15L.

Total diesel consumed = (50,000 km/16 km/L) = 3125L.

Amount spent on petrol = 3846.15L X INR 87/L = INR 330,768.90.

Amount spent on diesel = 3125L X INR 80/L = INR 250,000.

Savings on diesel vs. petrol = INR 80,768.90 in 4 years.

So, the fuel benefit of Diesel is still considerable. Though your calculations look correct and logical at the first glance, I believe we can't simply divide by 6 as base prices of both are different.

Thanks for correcting. Indeed it should be {(50000/13)-(50000/16)}*86 which comes to about 62000INR more for Petrol in 4 years. I should indeed have multiplied with the price of Petrol and not the difference in price. What a dumb thing I did there.

In that case, OP has to do a TCO analysis (including maintenance, taxes, insurance etc.) for his use case to see which one is for him. But still my suggestion to choose Petrol over Diesel wrt the DPF discussion is something I hold on

Last edited by carthick1000 : 24th August 2020 at 21:25.
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Old 24th August 2020, 21:40   #28
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

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Originally Posted by carthick1000 View Post
If my driving is primarily within city, then I would opt for a Petrol+DCT. Kia seltos uses a 1.4L Turbo Gasoline Direct Injection Engine.
Seltos IVT is a better bet than a DCT if the driving is predominantly in city. It gives better city drivability than DCT. DCT with its high torque in the lower band won't fare that good in bumper to bumper traffic, won't be as smooth as an IVT in such scenarios. Besides, it doesn't have the reliability of a IVT/CVT or a torque converter especially in heavy city usage.
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Old 24th August 2020, 21:56   #29
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

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Originally Posted by Bibendum90949 View Post
Seltos IVT is a better bet than a DCT if the driving is predominantly in city. It gives better city drivability than DCT. DCT with its high torque in the lower band won't fare that good in bumper to bumper traffic, won't be as smooth as an IVT in such scenarios. Besides, it doesn't have the reliability of a IVT/CVT or a torque converter especially in heavy city usage.
Had they launched the IVT in the GTX+ trim just like Hyundai did with the Creta it would have been my pick for those who drive predominantly in the city but want all the features as well. Hope Kia is listening and they launch this combination before I take the plunge somewhere around next year.
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Old 24th August 2020, 22:04   #30
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Default Re: Tata Harrier Automatic vs Hyundai Creta vs Kia Seltos vs others

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Originally Posted by Bibendum90949 View Post
Seltos IVT is a better bet than a DCT if the driving is predominantly in city.
May be, Kia does not plan the variants very well it seems, as from OP's post the top trim is preferred, which comes in either petrol MT, DCT or Diesel AT :
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