FAQ for tuning fuel injected cars - Step by step virtual buildup!

v1p3r · 3rd April 2007, 02:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by chetanhanda

we are trying to do a basic bone stock virtual engine

A bone stock engine with 10:1 CR and a 325 camshaft?!

chetanhanda · 3rd April 2007, 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Yes I'm aware of that chetan, thank you. I was saying I don't know how to advance (or retard) the timing on a G13B.

ok..
thats what we Ananth and me are trying to learn here ...we are trying to virtually apply after market ignition systems,standalone EMS etc etc..
we will try to build it step by step..

chetanhanda · 3rd April 2007, 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by v1p3r

A bone stock engine with 10:1 CR and a 325 camshaft?!

yes dude, let me explain why it sounds so weird..
1] we originally started off with a bone stock engine.
2] then we changed the CR and the camshafts and headers etc, i.e only the mechanical parts
3] so at this stage we are left with a bone stock ECU and fuel injection system.. (that why im trying to stick to conventiomnal single TB, single plenum, TPS and MAP on the TB, 1 injectore per runner)
4] next step --> we are discussing on this forum --> fuel map and ignition map etc etc .. what next ?

v1p3r · 3rd April 2007, 02:52

Ok, agreed. That was a nice analysis, btw.

A Greddy Emanage with the ignition harness, or an Apexi Safc. Both will be able to control ignition. The Emanage ultimate also allows you to control individual cylinder fuelling and ignition.

chetanhanda · 3rd April 2007, 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Ok, agreed. That was a nice analysis, btw.

ok
cool.. !!
lets wait for ananths feedback on this..? if he agrees to this till here..

chetanhanda · 3rd April 2007, 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by v1p3r

Ok, agreed. That was a nice analysis, btw.

A Greddy Emanage with the ignition harness, or an Apexi Safc. Both will be able to control ignition. The Emanage ultimate also allows you to control individual cylinder fuelling and ignition.

ok ..
SAFC only does for a few fixed RPM points for the fuel only(for part throttle only and be ignored at WOT), dont know if it will do the ignition (im not sure) ?
emanage or a ECU reflash(wouldn't be as flexible as emanage for quickly loading maps for Octane or other mods) would be our choices.. what say ?

v1p3r · 3rd April 2007, 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by chetanhanda

emanage or a ECU reflash(wouldn't be as flexible as emanage for quickly loading maps for Octane or other mods) would be our choices.. what say ?

You're looking at a one-time reflash? That'll leave you without too much flexibility.

Where on earth are Psycho and Sideways?

chetanhanda · 3rd April 2007, 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by v1p3r

You're looking at a one-time reflash? That'll leave you without too much flexibility.

Where on earth are Psycho and Sideways?

yeah ... Im waiting to hear from sideways, there's DOM and Rdkarthik also, hope they see this thread...

Psycho · 3rd April 2007, 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

1) Added a BP320 competition piper camshaft.

2) ported the intake/exhaust ports and gave the valves a 3-angle cut.

3) shaved the head and are running 10.0 CR

4) added headers

5) added individual throttle bodies (one per cylinder) with a tuned length manifold.

1) Get yourself an ECU (emanage with ignition harness) ultimate if in case you want a standalone or RaceDynamics ECU which is again a standalone

2) Increas compression furher

3) Change valve springs

4) Get a better pump and FPR if you want to be cost consious

5) Ignition can go up by 15 deg on peak, can be done with stock distributor

6) Up the octane rating based on CR

7) thats about where you can get

8) look at the gearbox

9) get a good clutch

v1p3r · 3rd April 2007, 03:57

e-Manage Ultimate is still a piggyback, I don't think it can function without the OE ECM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho

8) look at the gearbox

I'm looking. Very pretty, na?

Rehaan · 3rd April 2007, 04:22

Excellent idea for a thread ananth, and love the "virtual buildup" idea chetan!

Can we have a list of the most preffered / cost effective standalone systems for altering the ignition timing and fuel maps....

Also, rough indications of pricing of each of the mods / additions would be a great value add to the thread.

cya
R

ananthkamath · 3rd April 2007, 04:36

fine, lets stick to plenum manifold for now.

(ITBs should enter later into the discussion, though. because thats one thing webers give you that plenum manifolds dont: improved throttle response. some of the folks here remove the FI on their swifts and install twin weber DCOEs)

akshay and chethan. How about some links to reviews/installs of the eManage and the SAFC. That gives the complete picture of whats involved.

Ok so this is what I've understood:

Option 1: you retain the stock wiring harness, stock ECU, and then you plug in the eManage/SAFC somewhere between the ECU and the sensors?

Option 2: you got this engine off the junkyard and didnt get any of the electronics. So you use a different wiring harness and get a RaceDynamics ECU? (again, link would be appreciated)

So how do you dial in the right AFR and the timing when you get these bits? You use a laptop and some type of software?

PS: Psycho, did you mean you can advance +15 degrees with the stock distributor?

1) I agree compression is too low but it was just a generic number I picked out of air. 320 cam allows atleast 11.5 on 97 octane, I think? What say, Psycho.

2) Entire valve-train was updated along with cam change.

3) What does an FPR do and why is fuel pump change required? Cant it handle the moderate flow rate increase?

3) I agree with Akshay, gearbox looks pretty especially when you have straight-cut gears in them. LOL.

chetanhanda · 3rd April 2007, 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

fine, lets stick to plenum manifold for now.

(ITBs should enter later into the discussion, though. because thats one thing webers give you that plenum manifolds dont: improved throttle response. some of the folks here remove the FI on their swifts and install twin weber DCOEs)

agreed !! and I love the way they sound and look...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

akshay and chethan. How about some links to reviews/installs of the eManage and the SAFC. That gives the complete picture of whats involved.

hey ananth..before going ahead with the emanage and SAFC I think we should go step by step
A - fuel pump to match our requirement
1] calculate the approx lph we need to pump thru using theor BSFC
2] IPW/IDC based on BSFC and lph after finishing step 1
3] not reqd now , but would be handy later on ..approx air to be sucked in based on our map sensors using speed density calculation...

B - Modify the fuel maps
1] load the engine on a loading type chasis dyno and staying away inertia type initially, we may use the ther later on for other types of testing..
2] increase the fuel by increasing ur IPW and watching the AFR and the EGT, basically creating base fuel maps for open and closed loops of ECU
open loop may be in case of WOT or cold temp or 0 load. closed loop for all conditions apart from this.
each map will depend on engine speed and intake manifold vacuum (becoz we are using MAP and speed density), we select select a length of time that the injectors will stay open...
3] if u have a OBD2 based software(I prefer AutoTap,Auto Enginuity), watch the pulse width, we shud not exceed 80% IDC...easy to calculate. also the STFT and LTFT, every ECU has a fixed % u cant add to LTFT above which u get a MIL, so a OBD2 laptop based software will help here..., some even support wideband AFR meters now..Autoenginuty claims they will have/already have this support.
if reqd we will go for bigger injectors, bigger rail and FPR now

lets finish details of A and B before moving to ignition/timing system

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

So how do you dial in the right AFR and the timing when you get these bits? You use a laptop and some type of software?

yes set the fuel and then the timing.. but after we cover the A and B then move here...
eg crome, ghettodyne for ecu.. they are obd1, AEM, Greddy for standalone EMS, SAFC piggyback etc... etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

PS: Psycho, did you mean you can advance +15 degrees with the stock distributor?

hmmm..

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

3) I agree with Akshay, gearbox looks pretty especially when you have straight-cut gears in them. LOL.

wow dude !! straight cut gears where the hell u doing all this ? must be sounding nice ...

ppl how abt diving into A and B and then moving ahead ..what say ??

ananthkamath · 3rd April 2007, 08:18

wow you are going toward the ground-up build route whereas i am talking more about what exact components have been used by indian tuners before.

sure lets talk about all the specifics once we have the BASICS sorted out. This faq is for people who dont know ANYTHING about fuel injection systems. the stuff you are talking about is advanced diagnostics stuff and control systems stuff which i think should come later if the thread has to be truly useful.

another thing is the huge amount of acronyms being used. Let me start by adding an index of whatever acronyms I have used in this thread:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

DCOE: nomenclature for Weber carburettors which are in side-draft configuration

BP320: nomenclature for Piper camshaft which is a full-race grind (320 deg duration)

CR: compression ratio

ITB: individual throttle bodies, one per cylinder

NFS: need for speed ( the game, hehe)

MAP: manifold absolute pressure (for determining mixture, i suppose???)

vabs78 · 3rd April 2007, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by ananthkamath

sure lets talk about all the specifics once we have the BASICS sorted out. This faq is for people who dont know ANYTHING about fuel injection systems. the stuff you are talking about is advanced diagnostics stuff and control systems stuff which i think should come later if the thread has to be truly useful.

I agree with ananth,

as of now all this is going tangent for me eventhough I work on a diagnostic tool for cummins engines.

Basically what our tool does is we hook up a laptop to the ECU and read/modify some parameters in the ECU/ECM using our tool. I even have knowledge of the network datalink protocols used on the engine (CAN/J1939/J1708).

but I absolutely have no idea about what you guys are talking about here.
e.g.
1. What are ignition maps? how do you modify them?
2. Do we have PC software for doing all this?
3. I understand that reflash means downloading new embaded software and data in the ECU. but where do you get the new software (calibration ??) ?

some basic info needed guys

3rd April 2007, 02:52	#19
v1p3r Senior - BHPian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: BLR / DXB / LON Posts: 5,334 Thanked: 6,896 Times View My Garage	Ok, agreed. That was a nice analysis, btw. A Greddy Emanage with the ignition harness, or an Apexi Safc. Both will be able to control ignition. The Emanage ultimate also allows you to control individual cylinder fuelling and ignition. Last edited by v1p3r : 3rd April 2007 at 02:55.
	() Thanks

3rd April 2007, 04:22	#26
Rehaan Team-BHP Support Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Bombay Posts: 24,039 Thanked: 34,069 Times	Excellent idea for a thread ananth, and love the "virtual buildup" idea chetan! Can we have a list of the most preffered / cost effective standalone systems for altering the ignition timing and fuel maps.... Also, rough indications of pricing of each of the mods / additions would be a great value add to the thread. cya R
	() Thanks

3rd April 2007, 04:36	#27
ananthkamath Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mangalore Posts: 1,209 Thanked: 80 Times View My Garage	fine, lets stick to plenum manifold for now. (ITBs should enter later into the discussion, though. because thats one thing webers give you that plenum manifolds dont: improved throttle response. some of the folks here remove the FI on their swifts and install twin weber DCOEs) akshay and chethan. How about some links to reviews/installs of the eManage and the SAFC. That gives the complete picture of whats involved. Ok so this is what I've understood: Option 1: you retain the stock wiring harness, stock ECU, and then you plug in the eManage/SAFC somewhere between the ECU and the sensors? Option 2: you got this engine off the junkyard and didnt get any of the electronics. So you use a different wiring harness and get a RaceDynamics ECU? (again, link would be appreciated) So how do you dial in the right AFR and the timing when you get these bits? You use a laptop and some type of software? PS: Psycho, did you mean you can advance +15 degrees with the stock distributor? 1) I agree compression is too low but it was just a generic number I picked out of air. 320 cam allows atleast 11.5 on 97 octane, I think? What say, Psycho. 2) Entire valve-train was updated along with cam change. 3) What does an FPR do and why is fuel pump change required? Cant it handle the moderate flow rate increase? 3) I agree with Akshay, gearbox looks pretty especially when you have straight-cut gears in them. LOL. Last edited by ananthkamath : 3rd April 2007 at 04:49.
	() Thanks

3rd April 2007, 08:18	#29
ananthkamath Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Mangalore Posts: 1,209 Thanked: 80 Times View My Garage	wow you are going toward the ground-up build route whereas i am talking more about what exact components have been used by indian tuners before. sure lets talk about all the specifics once we have the BASICS sorted out. This faq is for people who dont know ANYTHING about fuel injection systems. the stuff you are talking about is advanced diagnostics stuff and control systems stuff which i think should come later if the thread has to be truly useful. another thing is the huge amount of acronyms being used. Let me start by adding an index of whatever acronyms I have used in this thread: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- DCOE: nomenclature for Weber carburettors which are in side-draft configuration BP320: nomenclature for Piper camshaft which is a full-race grind (320 deg duration) CR: compression ratio ITB: individual throttle bodies, one per cylinder NFS: need for speed ( the game, hehe) MAP: manifold absolute pressure (for determining mixture, i suppose???)
	() Thanks