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Old 12th November 2020, 12:15   #1
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Should I "EGR Delete" my car?

Car: Safari Storme 2013 VW 4x2
Engine: Pre-Facelift2.2L VariCOR in 140BHP Tune
Mileage:78k
Usage: City once in three days. Highway once in two months.

I don't know if this is my mind playing with me since I was in a 6 cylinder ULTRA refined X7, or my car actually getting rough and feeling a little stressed every time I pin it. The VariCOR engine was no six-cylinder when new, but the car used to be fairly smooth. I remember that when new, doing even 100kmph in fifth, the car would feel like you're lugging the engine. The 140 horses made sure that the car would fly on the open road. The acceleration was really good once the turbo spools up, and a downshift would mean that all the passengers would have to hold on to something.

7 years and 78k kilometres later, the story isn't quite the same. The inevitable injector problems and knocking started. An injector cleaning reduced the noise a bit but it's there nonetheless. The power delivery is starting to get a little bit delayed. Even 1500 RPM makes the car feel like it's struggling, the noise is excessive. The mileage hovers around 8 but I stopped tracking it to help soothe the mind. Downloaded fuelio again and done one full tank since, but there simply isn't much to go out for these days.

My college preparation and entrance tests have most likely come to an end and there isn't a dearth of time on my hands anymore. I've been entrusted with taking full care of the rides at home and the Safari is the first one I want to bother myself with.
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Old 12th November 2020, 12:57   #2
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Bringing the engine back into good shape and making the car feel good is what I want to do.
I had a few things I listed out. Here are those that pertain to the engine. Need advice.
  • Engine oil switch
  • EGR OFF

ENGINE OIL

and maybe some LiquiMOLY CeraTec

To begin with, the Safari has a particularly long engine oil life. 20,000 Kms. It's longer than most would feel safe with. Especially in a big and dirty diesel like this. I thought that shifting to synthetic will help matters. But the ever so old "Carbon seals and cleaning properties" argument has me on the fence.

It goes like this. Old engines have a lot of carbon buildup that seals all the.... um.. places that need to be sealed. And new synthetic oil, with it's better cleaning and flushing properties will wash out these carbon deposits and make the seals not so sealed. Causing oil leaks. Why weren't these seals good enough to work without the carbon deposits, were they leaking before the carbon came in? did the seals eventually wear and require the carbon to supplement it's sealing ability?? God only knows.. Or maybe BHPians do.

The recommended interval is 20k. Which is pretty long. I don't want to run mineral oil in my car that long. Maybe I'll use the 20k interval if I switch to synth. But if I retain mineral oil, it won't be for more than 10k or maybe 15k max. But I don't want these 10k or 15k to be rough like it is now.

Will synth make my engine run better?


Additives


I've seen amazing results with Liquimoly's additives, and I really want to try them. I would never venture close to fuel additives, but BHPian vsaravind007's thread on his Big ol' Laura gave me some much needed confidence. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...oda-laura.html (Review: Liqui Moly Cera Tec Friction Modifier in my Skoda Laura)

If I find that the synthetic oil isn't cutting it for my expectations, I plan to use the additive.

Now the EGR



Before I start off, one little thing. PLEASE disconnect your battery even if you aren't working with electrical components of your car. I was wriggling the EGR pipe out of place to check the carbon build up and ended up touching the pipe to the battery distribution plate on the side. That whole plate is a big positive terminal, and it sent sparks flying up till the bonnet high above my head. It could've ended badly, but luckily everything is fine *touchwood*

The idea of feeding my engine it's own waste, is something I cannot digest. I've seen enough intake manifolds get clogged up with the carbon buildup and immortalZ's 530D giving him 24kmpl is something that is too good to ignore. He has his EGR OFF.

I am just worried about the car going into limp mode if I blank off the egr with a plate and block it. The car, I assume would adjust to the blanking automatically, and even a check engine light is fine, But I do not want the car to go into LIMP mode because it sees different temperatures and pressures in the intake.

Advice me senpais. How do I help my ride run better, smoother and easier. It pains my heart to push it while I feel it struggle and choke on it's own exhaust. ew.

EDIT: after reading my posts again, I have come to realise that my tone hasn't been the very best. Kindly tell me and advice me where I have gone wrong anywhere. Whether in my thought process and knowledge or the way I write. I am here only to learn and share.

Last edited by viXit : 12th November 2020 at 13:00.
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Old 12th November 2020, 13:23   #3
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re: Should I "EGR Delete" my car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by viXit View Post

7 years and 78k kilometres later, the story isn't quite the same. The inevitable injector problems and knocking started. An injector cleaning reduced the noise a bit but it's there nonetheless. The power delivery is starting to get a little bit delayed. Even 1500 RPM makes the car feel like it's struggling, the noise is excessive. The mileage hovers around 8 but I stopped tracking it to help soothe the mind. Downloaded fuelio again and done one full tank since, but there simply isn't much to go out for these days.
No. EGR is not an accessory, it's designed to be part of the engine for obvious reasons.

From your post it appears that the injectors or fuel system have some problem, they need to be rebuilt and calibrated if not replacement is necessary so that it sprays fuel like it's supposed to do and return good fuel economy as well as avoid ruining the engine oil , turbo and exhaust system with a ton of unburnt fuel and soot.

Last edited by GTO : 12th November 2020 at 14:15. Reason: Fixing quote
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Old 12th November 2020, 13:26   #4
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viXit View Post

To begin with, the Safari has a particularly long engine oil life. 20,000 Kms. It's longer than most would feel safe with. Especially in a big and dirty diesel like this. I thought that shifting to synthetic will help matters. But the ever so old "Carbon seals and cleaning properties" argument has me on the fence.
At a service interval of 20.000km I would expect the manufacturer to recommend a very specific long life oil. Which almost always is a synthetic oil.

The service interval is determined, among other things, by the oil. You can’t just stick any oil in to that engine and expect the service interval still to be 20.000km.

I understand you are running a mineral oil now? Check you owner manual for the formal oil specification and service interval. And stick to that religiously. In a very dusty environment it might be useful to increase the service interval for the oil. Always replace the oil filter too. Get the best filter money can buy!

Changing to a synthetic oil on an engine that has been running on mineral oil for a long period of time is often frowned upon for all the reasons you mention. But you really should not be running an engine for those long interval on mineral oil. Mineral oil is dead cheap, so change it often.

If you have been using mineral oil on an engine designed for synthetic oil and have been running that mineral oil for long period, 10-15K km, all bets are off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by viXit View Post
The idea of feeding my engine it's own waste, is something I cannot digest.
Shutting off the EGR valve is an illegal modification. Also, if the engine is properly maintained it really should not be a problem.

Good luck, always consult the owner manual before consulting the internet!

Jeroen
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Old 12th November 2020, 17:08   #5
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeroen View Post
At a service interval of 20.000km I would expect the manufacturer to recommend a very specific long life oil. Which almost always is a synthetic oil.
I cannot find any details whether it's synthetic or mineral from the manual. [quote]
I understand you are running a mineral oil now? Check you owner manual for the formal oil specification and service interval. And stick to that religiously.
Quote:
In a very dusty environment it might be useful to increase the service interval for the oil.
Do you mean, increase the frequency?

I checked my user manual and this is what it says. I initially just assumed that tata uses mineral oil because it's tata. But now after listening to you, I'm wondering that maybe they're using synthetic since the interval is so damn long. The car has always been serviced at tata, so I'm going to assume that they used synthetic oil every time that they did the oil change.

Quote:
Always replace the oil filter too.
Yeah, they change the filter every time.
Quote:
Get the best filter money can buy!
Tata does it all for me, the company's filters only.

Quote:
Mineral oil is dead cheap, so change it often.
I think I might be able to understand what they used in my car from the bill.

Quote:
If you have been using mineral oil on an engine designed for synthetic oil and have been running that mineral oil for long period, 10-15K km, all bets are off.
It's not likely. TATA's service centre's are a far cry from reliable, but I don't think they'd commit blunders like that. Oh no, what if..... Can an engine flush reverse some of the damage if that's done??
Quote:
Shutting off the EGR valve is an illegal modification. Also, if the engine is properly maintained it really should not be a problem.
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Old 12th November 2020, 21:18   #6
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?

Get the air filter cleaned/replaced. Also get the MAF sensor cleaned with the IPA or a MAF Cleaning Spray (not WD40).

Before emptying injector cleaning fluids into the fuel tank, change your fuel filter earlier than prescribed / maybe at every alternate oil change (change the mineral oil every 13k kms, 10k kms if you've driven 30-40% within the city).

Tata has been recommending a 20k engine oil change interval for the 2.2L AVL/Dicor engine. IMO, although they've done this after "extensive research & testing", it's necessary to take it with a pinch of salt.

Most car makers play on the fact that they're only obligated to customers till the car has a valid warranty. So, it's in their interest that the vehicle degrades gradually & requires additional repairs post warranty period. This is why I'm always skeptical of their claims on periodic change intervals of :
Engine Oil
Gear Oil / Transmission Fluid
Timing Chain/Belt
Water pump
Engine Coolant.

However I do trust car makers opinion on Brake fluid interval, & also only stick to OEM brake pads, because they too don't risk with allowing the brakes to degrade soon.

Anyway, without circling-off all such basics first, I don't recommend you to go for a re-map.

Last edited by GrammarNazi : 12th November 2020 at 21:23.
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Old 13th November 2020, 07:20   #7
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my car?

I'd recommend that you completely drain out and replace ALL fluids (engine / brake / gear oils, coolant).

For a CI4 and above synthetic diesel specific oil, try

Mobil Delvac1 https://www.amazon.in/Mobil-Delvac-S...dp/B0755G7B3C/
Amsoil 5w40 Turbo Truck https://www.amazon.in/AMSOIL-Greaves.../dp/B076F44T5Q

These also have ACEA E* ratings for extended drain intervals - but don't go beyond the manufacturer recommendation OR one year. If your use is primarily in the city that counts as a "severe driving condition" so you really should change your oil at least every 10k km (or with the Mobil Delvac1 or Amsoil above, you can stretch to say 12-13k km)

Beyond that, don't go for "ceratec" type additives that coat your engine. Just add a cetane booster of some sort (Abro, System D, Liqui Moly etc "diesel cleaners") to good quality fuel from a known pump (try Essar pumps if you can, or Shell regular diesel, not V Power), and take your car on a nice long highway drive.
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Old 15th November 2020, 22:30   #8
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viXit View Post

Additives


I've seen amazing results with Liquimoly's additives, and I really want to try them. I would never venture close to fuel additives, but BHPian vsaravind007's thread on his Big ol' Laura gave me some much needed confidence. https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...oda-laura.html (Review: Liqui Moly Cera Tec Friction Modifier in my Skoda Laura)

If I find that the synthetic oil isn't cutting it for my expectations, I plan to use the additive.

[
Have you heard about nano lube? This has made many engines butter smooth. Recommended to be used with manufacture recommended engine oil.

My friends had successful results with toyota corolla, tata indica, mahindra verito, re thunderbird, Honda activa etc. So apt for both diesel and petrol engines.

I have bought 200 ml for my Alto, xpulse and rx 100. (Yet to be used).

+919496824473 - Firoz is the inventor. Can order through phone and he'll courier the product to your address. Not available anywhere else. Disclaimer - this is not a paid promotion
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Old 15th November 2020, 22:44   #9
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

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Originally Posted by sreeJiva View Post
Have you heard about nano lube? This has made many engines butter smooth. Recommended to be used with manufacture recommended engine oil.
I recommend you turn that bottle around and read all the stuff written on the other side of it, the numbers if they are true would disprove every theory in physics and chemistry related to energy and friction.

Link

Just don't do it.
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Old 15th November 2020, 22:54   #10
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosfactor View Post
I recommend you turn that bottle around and read all the stuff written on the other side of it, the numbers if they are true would disprove every theory in physics and chemistry related to energy and friction.

Link

Just don't do it.
I wouldn't have recommended this in a forum like tbhp where most take care of their rides religiously, without first hand experience. I've seen and driven my friend's car and noticed the difference. And then bought them myself for my vehicles. Just waiting for the kms to add up for next oil change.

But each to our own wits. If you had used it and found that it was a waste of time and money invested, then your warning would have made sense.

And it doesn't defy any laws of science. Inventor's logic is quite convincing.
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Old 15th November 2020, 22:56   #11
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreeJiva View Post
Have you heard about nano lube? This has made many engines butter smooth. Recommended to be used with manufacture recommended engine oil.
As Kosfactor has advised, avoid using such products.

Long back, a thread on adding Boric Powder to the engine oil was very hot on T-BHP. You can search for the same and read it. The thread starter made vary tall claims but subsequently he is silent on the forum for years.

This thread starter was online on the forum as late as June 2019. But yet, he has avoided to answer my question posted in 2015.
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Old 16th November 2020, 00:14   #12
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viXit View Post
The idea of feeding my engine it's own waste, is something I cannot digest. I've seen enough intake manifolds get clogged up with the carbon buildup and immortalZ's 530D giving him 24kmpl is something that is too good to ignore. He has his EGR OFF.
Apart from the obvious issue of not complying with the emission regulations, physically blocking the EGR also makes your engine run hotter. Combustion temperatures within the cylinders increase beyond what the engine was designed for with the EGR in place. This could cause damages in the longer run.

Most tuners do offer an EGR soft delete as part of a stage 1 remap. It is a soft delete, in the sense that the ECU does not control the EGR valve any more. The valve opens only when the pressure in the manifold forces it to open. In some cars, (now, this is open to debate, but this was told to me by a well known Australian tuner when I asked him about completely blocking the EGR pipe), it seems, the EGR valve also acts as a BOV, at times, to release excess pressure in addition to a wastegate or the variable vanes (in case of a VGT) to prevent pressure surges and consequent damage to the turbo charger. My EGR is soft deleted as part of my stage 1 remap. But getting to the EGR pipes in the Endeavour to do a physical block is next to impossible because it is buried deep inside the engine bay. Would require extensive dismantling of major components. So I did not do it. But ever since this BOV aspect came into the picture, I decided to leave the EGR as it is. I don't know if it was a coincidence, but my EGT sensor failed towards the end of a non-stop BOM-CJB drive soon after the remap. I say it could be a coincidence because the part is known to fail in some Endeavours. But the timing of the failure, after having done close to 60k kms, is what makes me wonder if the EGR delete had something to do with it.

If you still decide to go ahead with a physical block, you could make a small diameter hole in the blanking plate so that it is not completely shut off, while greatly reducing the amount of exhaust gas going back into the engine. This can prevent CEL lights from getting activated.

Last edited by SCORPION : 16th November 2020 at 00:16.
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Old 16th November 2020, 00:45   #13
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sreeJiva View Post
And it doesn't defy any laws of science.
It does. It is the modern day variant of snake oil.

You can’t judge oil, or any additive, by feel. The only way is an extensive comparison test. Several identical engines. Take the apart, measure everything, put them back together. Fill a few with regelar oil and a with a few add this snake oil. Run them for thousands of hours, in an identical way. After having done, say the equivalent of at least 20 - 25.000km. Strip the engines and compare. For some proper meaningful results you need to do this 3-4 times, let’s say every 20-25K kilometer. An engine at 100.000km responds differently to wear and tear than a brand new one. So you need to take that into consideration. (meaning measure the effect)

Anything else is simply not worthwhile considering. That is why 99,9% of all the oil related thread on car forums are completely and utterly useless. Nobody does actual measurements. People listen and “feel” and “hear” their engine doing better etc.

You do know that it is well documented given that more than 80% of the people in the wild west whom bought snake oil, actually claimed to feel a lot more healthy after taking it? Same principle. Your health / your engine health is important to you. Somebody convinces you about an unique product. You shell out good money, of course, you are going to see great result! It’s only human, but it is not science.

Only real, verifiable, measures before and after, against a known reference source makes sense Anything else is just the internet and its users being gullible. But each to its own. If it makes you feel better, by all means add additives to your oil, your fuel, your brake oil, your cooling liquid, your AC gas etc.

Jeroen

Last edited by Jeroen : 16th November 2020 at 00:56.
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Old 16th November 2020, 03:12   #14
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my Safari?. Need help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by viXit View Post

Advice me senpais. How do I help my ride run better, smoother and easier. It pains my heart to push it while I feel it struggle and choke on it's own exhaust. ew.
I suggest you go through this pdf document to learn the importance of EGR and know why your Safari's performance is lackluster. It is a terrific vehicle with such road presence. Maintain and it will serve you well. It's a true blooded SUV !

https://www.btnturbo.com/assets/factsheet_7_egr.pdf
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Old 16th November 2020, 08:13   #15
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Re: Should I "EGR Delete" my car?

Yes don't meddle with the EGR. Fix whatever is the issue with your Safari, if it is mild you could just fix it with a complete change of fluids and replacement of all the filters (air, fuel, oil, aircon as well).

If these don't fix the issue, diagnose the problem and proceed as per the diagnosis.
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