[adneo]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Drum brakes at the rear is not necessarily a problem at all. Lots of modern cars still have them. Certainly my wife’s Ford Fiesta has them. Not sure on the latest Ford Focus, but earlier models had them too.

Stopping power, or stopping distance if you like, is not necessarily related to having drum or disc brakes as such.

As many have mentioned, braking is done primarily by your front brakes. Check out the size of the front disc and callipers and you will see they tend to be considerably larger/beefier than the ones at the rear.

Even so, you will still find brake pressure limiters on the rear brakes too. (e.g. Alfa). Just to make sure they don’t lock up prior to the front one!
Jeroen

Yes definitely the more important point is the braking distance. If a Disc Drum combo can provide reassuring figures for a particular car then that might be the best combo.

The first thing I would like to point out is the Linea gave me an opportunity to experience braking with both combos on the same platform with very similar kerb weights. Which obviously has not been the case for cars like the City,Fiesta. Verna came with rear discs but Hyundai took them off saying passengers complained of the aggressive braking!

Until we drive the same car under different setups we cant say for sure if we are missing out or we have a setup which gives us the confidence we would like to roll with.

The entire funda of front brakes providing the most braking effort, also brings to the forefront other aspects like rolling momentum, brake bias, weight shift etc. So basically we cant just have huge front rotors without a rear setup which can balance off the equation. If a rear drum can keep harmony while maintaining excellent braking distances then there is nothing to complain.

I guess we have already seen the statements from owners or people having TDed platforms like the Creta or Seltos and how they felt between a Disc Drum combo vs a 4 Disc combo.

I was very hopeful that Kia was going in the right direction but it seems they cheaped out on the structure and gave us Discs! So not the guardian Angel i was thinking them to be.

The biggest point I want to highlight is people keep chasing 0-100 figures while totally forgetting about the inverse.

For me 0-100 is luxury but 100-0 is a bare necessity and there should be absolutely no compromise around it.

Safety cant be a single dimensional approach like plugging in airbags into a structure which can stand up to an impact. It has to be addressed holistically, where all the pieces give us absolutely all options to keep us safe.

[Bibendum90949]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Check out the size of the front disc and callipers and you will see they tend to be considerably larger/beefier than the ones at the rear.

Here are the front and rear disc and pads in my Diesel seltos. As you've pointed out, the rear one is much smaller(marked the pad size in red). Do notice the change in size of the rotors too.

Front


Rear

[Gurgaon_lyon]

Originally Posted by adneo

Hi All,
One of my biggest grief when it comes to Indian Car manufacturers is how every single one of them try to skimp on important safety features and provide more gizmos and toys instead.

The feature which i want to highlight is Rear Discs. Whole buying our sedan, one of the main 3 reasons other than power, handling was braking which led me to drop the Rapid and pick up the Linea TJet. The Vento was dropped immediately after TD because of the pathetic brakes. The Rapid though sharper than the Vento simply couldnt inspire the confidence of a 4 Disc setup found on the Linea. Interestingly both the Rapid and Polo were being sold in the UK with similar engines along with rear discs. !

Agreed. And let alone small Sedan even India's favourite 2 ton truck had missing rear disc for almost a decade.

Indeed my decision to go for Santa Fe instead of then fortuner was among other thing due to missing rear brake.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Call me whatever, the first thing I do is to switch off this assistance on the Merc. It's programmed for countries where people know the difference between roads and their backyards, not for us, at least in the current day. The moment it sees a human being coming on a road, it brakes as if it's the end of the world.

We need some Indian Jugar for it work in India

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by adneo

The feature which i want to highlight is Rear Discs. Whole buying our sedan, one of the main 3 reasons other than power, handling was braking which led me to drop the Rapid and pick up the Linea TJet.

Powerful brakes are as important as powerful torque, combined they make life easier for the driver, reduce road accidents and save a few lives in the process as well (animals and man, both are important).

What do I say about Fiat? I have no ownership experience of it and all my praises come from 2 test-drives of the diesel and petrol respectively, VW and Skoda are NO match, not by a hundred miles, the smooth suspension, rock-solid handling, noise isolation and steering feedback and precision in Fiats were in a league of it's own, despite the higher ground clearance. They knew how to make a driver's car.

Linea T-Jet didn't have much space (compared to competition) but in terms of safety, dynamics, control and steering, it is above BMW level and I find Rapid, Vento and Fiesta horribly overrated, which is against popular opinion here.

Yes, I say it as well, tons of torque, 4 disc-brakes, a stable but soft suspension and a rigid chassis.. sadly no car is out there with such a combination except maybe the Tucson.

[venkyhere]

another pet peeve of mine is how most car owners, once out of warranty period, or when it's time to change tyres ; want the cheapest aftermarket brake pads and want the cheapest tyres in the size that they want. I've even seen people investing on wheel spacers and snazzy alloys, but choose a mediocre tyre to keep the budget in check. And then go spend a crazy amount of money on ceramic coating.

Without good grippy tyres, even all 4 discs are useless.

[tirumalavoleti]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

Powerful brakes are as important as powerful torque, combined they make life easier for the driver, reduce road accidents and save a few lives in the process as well (animals and man, both are important).


Yes, I say it as well, tons of torque, 4 disc-brakes, a stable but soft suspension and a rigid chassis.. sadly no car is out that with such a combination except maybe the Tucson.

Well said and indeed what is needed. Add 6 air bags to the stable to make it complete. Yes Tucson have it all including good interiors and space.

[Rahul Bhalgat]

I think that we shall be satisfied if the brakes are good enough and leave the decision to the car manufacturers.

As most of us already know, deciding the car specifications is not that straightforward job. The factors like market expectations, cost, price, target buyer, and differentiation from other cars (from the same manufacturer) play role in deciding the specifications.

So, I am happy as long as the brakes are good enough and reliable.

And once a car is bought, under whatever criteria (prestige or gadgets or looks or service network or whatever), we shall drive it within it's limits of power and braking.

[arijitkanrar]

While I am not denying the proclivity of Indian Auto OEMs of providing more bling instead of bang, I see other factors at play when it comes to more cars getting rear discs deleted.
The root cause? Indian road conditions.
Our road conditions mean manufacturers usually have to raise the suspension for better ground clearance and also soften up the suspension for more supple ride (the preference of the regular car buying public).

This means that during braking, the weight transfer is more pronounced towards the front wheels. The rear wheels are less significant in the overall braking and thus need less power. Any more power and they would lock up thus reducing overall braking performance even further.
Since the rear wheels have a smaller role to play in the braking performance as compared to a car with a firmer suspension (think about sports cars), they can use braking gear which can provide the required braking force without increasing complexity. So, the humble drum brake is enough. On the upside, its a system which requires lesser maintenance, is self adjusting, is easier for implementing a parking brake and more cost effective for the job at hand.

[architect_santo]

I drive a Honda Amaze which has drum brakes at rear and Suzuki S Cross which has disc brake at rear, both brakes decently.
Actually I find Amaze to provide better control, may be cause the tyres? I am not sure. S Cross is with JK UX Royale and Amaze has Michelin XM2.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Check out the size of the front disc and callipers and you will see they tend to be considerably larger/beefier than the ones at the rear.

Originally Posted by Bibendum90949

Here are the front and rear disc and pads in my Diesel seltos. As you've pointed out, the rear one is much smaller (marked the pad size in red). Do notice the change in the size of the rotors too.

Yes, Front is larger than the rear set. Front rotors are ventilated type whereas the rear ones are solid type. Here's what the Seltos and Creta get:

Front Rotor: 300mm (outer dia) with a thickness of 26.4mm
Rear Rotor: 262mm (outer dia) with a thickness of 10mm
Rear Drum: 229mm (inner dia) with brake liner thickness of 4.5mm

[adneo]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

I think that we shall be satisfied if the brakes are good enough and leave the decision to the car manufacturers.

As most of us already know, deciding the car specifications is not that straightforward job. The factors like market expectations, cost, price, target buyer, and differentiation from other cars (from the same manufacturer) play role in deciding the specifications.

So, I am happy as long as the brakes are good enough and reliable.

And once a car is bought, under whatever criteria (prestige or gadgets or looks or service network or whatever), we shall drive it within it's limits of power and braking.

I guess i have got only 2 questions for you to ponder upon.

1. How many manufacturers in India do you see publishing 100 - 0 figures or any braking data like braking distance, which will give you the feeling of reassurance that you are not being short changed.

2. You may as well want to drive within the design parameters but life will always throw surprises outside that realm and thats when the additional braking power comes handy. I was not on a track. I was on a city road and a car just jumped out of the bus lane.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by adneo

I guess i have got only 2 questions for you to ponder upon.

1. How many manufacturers in India do you see publishing 100 - 0 figures or any braking data like braking distance, which will give you the feeling of reassurance that you are not being short changed.

Just for context; I don’t think any car manufacturer in the world publishes brake distance data.

Several car program have done all sorts of comparisons. One common theme; all cars tend to brake well within the legal limits. But there are difference.

Here a bit dated Topgear test; the little Peugeot has a better stopping distance than the Porsche!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGkKDaYd3Mo

Jeroen

[Kosfactor]

If I'm up against a road barricade and a KSRTC bus tailing me, I would rather plough straight into the barricade , lose a bumper than sharing the cabin with a bus. Autonomous braking is good when there are no humans involved in either of the vehicles in my opinion, let humans make that decision.

Brakes are well regulated as per government norms, rear drum makes it easy to meet the requirements of emergency and parking brakes as well as service brakes. Rear drum brakes should not be a limiting factor for implementing any advanced safety tech, the simple cable system for emergency brake allows you to bring the car to a halt even if the hydraulic circuit fails.

Nothing wrong with all 4 discs, You could have disk brake in the rear and a separate drum brake for parking and emergency use, or you could add a Switch for parking brake which incase of brake failure will be the last thing you think of. Not sure if all this complexity is warranted.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Drum brakes at the rear is not necessarily a problem at all. Lots of modern cars still have them. Certainly my wife’s Ford Fiesta has them. Not sure on the latest Ford Focus, but earlier models had them too.

Stopping power, or stopping distance if you like, is not necessarily related to having drum or disc brakes as such. Many other factors come into play.

...
Jeroen

Thank you for this post. Just having disc brakes at the rear does not guarantee good braking performance.

I recall some colleagues measuring braking distances on the track between an i20 with an all disc setup and a Tata Zest. The Zest was out-braking the i20 by far!

Rear discs have the benefits of better heat dissipation but for regular road cars, as long as it's engineered / calibrated well, a rear drum setup can give good braking performance.

[whencut86]

When I bought my current car, I picked the Linea 5 years back. The other sedan options didn't have rear discs and Linea TJet had the best stopping distance among the other sedans in that period.

Infact, the Honda City of that generation got better tyres and rear discs even in lower variants of Malaysian version of City. But sadly, Indian version got inferiors tyres and drum brakes in the rear. Rapid or Vento didn't have rear discs and also all top end sedans at the time of my purchase came with a max of 2 airbags only. If I remember Linea was the only car which came with Auto Wipers and Auto headlamps at that time.

Not bothered about fancy touch screen, sunroof or anything. The car needs to be built solidly, needs to be safe, good stopping distance and 4 discs and good ride and handling. Linea ticks all boxes for me in this regard. It is going to be a real pain finding such a car when I do plan to upgrade a few years later. So plan to keep the Linea for as long as possible.

Maybe the new Civic in its diesel avatar has good road manners, braking, ride and handling.