[Ashley2]

Calling out Duster 110 PS AMT owners:

Off late, Duster 110 PS AMT seems to have following issues and is reported by many owners.
1. Severe shuddering in N to 1 gear shift.
2. Jerking is more after a couple of hours drive.
3.Replacement of Clutch/ flywheel as low or less than 30k kms to 50k kms.

AMT Background:
AMT's inherent character advantage over MT is, it should deliver a better (atleast match ), Clutch life,fuel performance and related life of drive line components in comparison to equivalent MT. At any cost it shall not deliver a performance lesser than MT.

Its basically de-skilling driver's ability and to obtain a fairly flat bell curve, across various drivers.

We call this deskilling because, it eliminates what a novice driver does -
1.Clutch riding
2.Shifting with half clutch engaged
3.Habitual shifting at high RPM
4.Notorious downshift in high RPM
5.Wrong selection of gears etc.

When driven with any one of above or with the combination of above, will lead to premature wear of Clutch, Flywheel, withdrawal bearings, cover assy etc.

But in case of AMT, the algorithm takes complete control on the system and eliminates all possible issues. ( though with manual mode M mode, S.no 3 alone is still possible)

Issues in Duster AMT:
Many cars have been reported with shuddering/ Jerking in N - 1, gear shift. The jerk is proportional to the temperature of clutch and its more obvious and makes it uncomfortable to drive in start - stop traffic.

Reported from as early as 20k to 25k Kms. Clutch parts are replaced as early as 30k kms and in some cases multiple replacements less than 80k Kms.

Renault Feedback and Action:
Dealers do acknowledge that this is reported in many Duster's and insist replacement of parts either under warranty/ Extended Warranty/ Out of warranty.

Renault doesn't agree on the issue with the system and say, driver's inability and poor driving manners are leading to this. The system was supplied by ZF as turnkey with inputs from Renault. What Renault isn't telling is what exactly a driver has a role in AMT that's leading to premature wear of these components.

They fail to study the root cause and give a make shift temporary solution by just changing parts. Service team is highly reluctant to approach this technically instead with a novice view of just replacing parts.

While we get an average clutch life in excess of 90k KMS in MT, hardly owners have reported less than half in the AMT. This confirms, there is a serious problem in the system and Renault is highly reluctant in addressing this in a permanent way, instead only giving a temporary parts replacement.

My Background :
Served in the capacity of Product Manager - Heavy buses. Our team was one of the earliest to try Automatics in heavy buses as early as 2009 - 10. We had documented evidences and studies and have followed up for buses for more than 3lk Kms.

I can share more information on why AMT( rather a clutch based automatics) are preferred in many heavy duty applications. They are also the most efficient Automatics, which is a fact that made Volvo to standardize I-Shift AMT's across their trucks. Since 2001, cumulatively Volvo will be nearing a sale of 1M trucks with I-shift in next few months.

My Humble and Sincere request to fellow BHP'ians not to reply with any posts, comparing AMT with other Automatics and try to establish AMT as an inferior one. This post is not related to that.[/quote]
Post: Duster AMT - Perennial issues - Unsolved by Renault

[GTO]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

Calling out Duster 110 PS AMT owners:

Off late, Duster 110 PS AMT seems to have following issues and is reported by many owners.
1. Severe shuddering in N to 1 gear shift.
2. Jerking is more after a couple of hours drive.
3.Replacement of Clutch/ flywheel as low or less than 30k kms to 50k kms.

Thanks for sharing! You can also add "overheating" transmission / clutch to that list. It's not just Renault, even other manufacturers (including Maruti) have struggled with the long-term reliability of AMTs. It is inherently an inferior technology for passenger cars. That's why I don't recommend AMTs to anyone. If an AMT's price premium is 45,000 and a proper AT is 1 lakh, the difference of 55,000 is nothing in EMI terms (like 1 less restaurant dinner a month). I will always recommend a proper AT because of its superior smoothness, performance, reliability & resale value. The only brand who's AMT I have found borderline acceptable is Hyundai.

I can share more information on why AMT( rather a clutch based automatics) are preferred in many heavy duty applications

Please do. Would love to know.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by GTO

...

Please do. Would love to know.

Originally Posted by Ashley2

...

I can share more information on why AMT( rather a clutch based automatics) are preferred in many heavy duty applications. They are also the most efficient Automatics, which is a fact that made Volvo to standardize I-Shift AMT's across their trucks. Since 2001, cumulatively Volvo will be nearing a sale of 1M trucks with I-shift in next few months.

Yes, please. I have been reading a lot about AMT's successes in transitioning the trucking industry from manual gearbox trucks to AMT trucks, I'd like to know more.
Can we expect AMTs someday to be as smooth as
torque converter transmissions?

[hserus]

Originally Posted by Ashley2

Many cars have been reported with shuddering/ Jerking in N - 1, gear shift. The jerk is proportional to the temperature of clutch and its more obvious and makes it uncomfortable to drive in start - stop traffic.

Maybe a different / third party amt transmission fluid might help?

VW had a similar issue in their DCTs which was supposedly mitigated by switching to a different transmission fluid

[gb97ce6]

Our brezza diesel AMT also had shuddering issue in lower gears but it was impossible to replicate it in front of mechanics. It was random and will come and go away without any rhyme or reason. There is no violent shaking but everyone can feel the continuous jerk. Still has not been resolved but we do not experience it regularly though. Worried about this transmission as the car ages.

[sandeepmohan]

I did not know ZF made AMT systems.

The concept has been tried by many, with limited success and reliability. The worst has to be from Magneti Marelli. A colleagues Fiat 500 had to make several visits to the dealer to sort out the AMT suddenly dropping into neutral. It got so bad that when slowing to a Give Way sign at a roundabout, the gearbox would drop into neutral, the driver has not noticed it and when you give the car gas, there is no response. You panic and most drivers don't know what to do. I am sure most can relate to this experience from our Technical Section.

There needs to be some data to back this up. On I-Shift or AMT's being more reliable with heavy duty applications such as trucks, it could well be that these trucks are spending most of their time on the freeway, moving at a constant speed for most of their duty cycle. The gearbox isn't shifting gears at the rate a car would and hence the system being more reliable. Some heavy duty model of Volvo trucks such as the FH and FM series have dedicated crawler gears, dual clutch units as part of the I-Shift system. All governed by software.

[speedmunster]

I too own a Duster AMT 2016 model. It is close to the 50k mark at the moment. Here are my observations:

1. It is buttery smooth during the mornings and on long drives.
2. Judder starts after around half an hour of driving in stop and go traffic. And that too only while moving from a standstill in 1st gear.

This problem started around the 29k mark. I had spoken to another bhpian who also owns a Duster AMT and even he said that this was exactly what he was facing.

The ASC had asked me to change the flywheel and the clutch set at around 30k. Didn't do it.

Cheers

[v_safari]

I own a Nexon diesel AMT, and on a recent trip to the hills of Himachal, the transmission was up in smoke.
There was smoke coming our of the hood.
We had to stop the car to check if there was some other problem or was the engine overheating, but to our surprise, it was the clutch, and the engine was fine.

SO AMT does have its problems. I felt that they perform fine on plains, but hills really had it calling.

Forgot to mention the temperature outside was -2 :-)

[Arun_S]

Originally Posted by v_safari

I own a Nexon diesel AMT, and on a recent trip to the hills of Himachal, the transmission was up in smoke.
There was smoke coming our of the hood.
We had to stop the car to check if there was some other problem or was the engine overheating, but to our surprise, it was the clutch, and the engine was fine.

SO AMT does have its problems. I felt that they perform fine on plains, but hills really had it calling.

Forgot to mention the temperature outside was -2 :-)

Correctly Said Sir... I too had the issues with Celerio AMT in Ooty hills. It is my personal opinion AMT's are not suited for the hills.

[superbad]

One of our acquaintances purchased a Kwid AMT in 2019. The initial few months proved to be a nightmare, with the brakes repeatedly jamming leading to burnout & smoke coming from the wheels. In fact this happened once on a busy highway. The brake pedal once released would not fully disengage, & the car would not creep at all. The dealer did give good support & flat bedded the car multiple times & dropped it at home, at no extra cost. However, it took nearly 4-5 months of troubleshooting & multiple repair visits to the workshop & changing the entire clutch & brake assembly to finally bring the car on road.
I think Renault needs to rethink it's AMT supplier because the current one is clearly not upto the task.
Coming to AMT vs auto transmission debate, we've had a Tata Zest AMT which has run over 60k in four years with no problems. It is all the more creditworthy since my father has a heavy footed driving style. So I don't think AMT in general is less reliable than any auto transmission.

[Dry Ice]

Originally Posted by v_safari

SO AMT does have its problems. I felt that they perform fine on plains, but hills really had it calling.

Forgot to mention the temperature outside was -2 :-)

Originally Posted by Arun_S

Correctly Said Sir... I too had the issues with Celerio AMT in Ooty hills. It is my personal opinion AMT's are not suited for the hills.

Just curious, isn't it possible to use the "manual" mode in such situations if the AMT cannot decide by itself on the best gear to use?

[BobbypinsGuy]

Guys reading about the Duster amt issues here, I'm becoming more and more sceptical about going for the Kiger Amt? How does one find out if Renault has made some good changes to the Kiger amt after getting the feedback from customers?

[hserus]

Originally Posted by BobbypinsGuy

Guys reading about the Duster amt issues here, I'm becoming more and more sceptical about going for the Kiger Amt? How does one find out if Renault has made some good changes to the Kiger amt after getting the feedback from customers?

Some part of it is that there's a mindset to using an AMT - this lot here is good advice, such as the part about not standing on the brakes in drive when at a signal, but switching to neutral instead.

https://gomechanic.in/blog/things-yo...ver-do-in-amt/

[low_rider]

I have been driving Zest AMT for more than 6 years now and nearing 95K kms. I believe it is a Magnetti Marelli unit. My experience has been fine so far.

I got my clutch plates replaced around 65K kms, which I think is a bit early compared to MTs, but they just stopped working. Gear would engage but the car won't move on throttle input. Got it towed and replaced the clutch plates which were found to be worn off.

Unlike Maruti AMTs, Tata AMT doesn't starts crawling when you slot it into 1st gear. You have to provide throttle input to make it move, which I think doesn't wear out the clutch while waiting at traffic signals.

I have made 2 trips to Mussoorie in it and AMT behaved properly both uphill and downhill, although I was skeptical about its behaviour on hills.

The shudder being discussed here could be due to weak throttle input while the clutch gets engaged.

[Ashley2]

Wrt, why AMT's are the only preferred solution in heavy duty applications?

Though there are multiple ways in which the drive line can be automated, clutch based automatics are most efficient of the lot. When I say its clutch based it can either be with a single clutch or with a dual clutch.

None of the other options like CVT, Torque Convertors comes near to AMT's in the efficient graph, as a portion of power is already dissipated through heat. For heavy hauls where high torque gear box is required, only AMT's fit precisely with multiple speeds upto 14+2 forward gears and 2 reverse gears. More the number of gears better the traction and ability to haul, multiply this with varied load and duty factor's from long haul tractor application to short haul tipper applications. A macro picture will clearly show the widest possible applications are fulfilled only with AMT's.

Torque convertors inherently dissipates heat and larger one's requires separate cooling circuit similar to engine. This subsequently leads to larger radiator drawing more power, making a dent in reserve power for the wheels. This means there will be a substantiate difference in wheel end torque with AMT's and other substitute's.

Also larger Torque convertors are invariably larger in size compared to an equivalent MT/AMT and hence packaging is always an issue. Volvo I-Shift have matured very nicely over last two decades from light duty applications to heavy haul mining applications in FMX with crawlers and with double clutch.Torque Convertors are still used in city applications in buses, refuse trucks, distribution trucks and in coaches as they are more comfortable in short haul and stop start traffic.

Why AMT's failing in Indian cars do have multiple reasons and they can't be ignored.

Originally Posted by hserus

Maybe a different / third party amt transmission fluid might help?

VW had a similar issue in their DCTs which was supposedly mitigated by switching to a different transmission fluid

Until and otherwise we zero in, that lub is the culprit, we cant change it and its not advisable.

Originally Posted by gb97ce6

Our brezza diesel AMT also had shuddering issue in lower gears but it was impossible to replicate it in front of mechanics. It was random and will come and go away without any rhyme or reason. There is no violent shaking but everyone can feel the continuous jerk. Still has not been resolved but we do not experience it regularly though. Worried about this transmission as the car ages.

Predominantly shuddering is proportionate to the temperature of clutch disc. So its unlikely that you will experience this early in the morning when you take this to ASC. ASC is aware of this and they will pretend that there is no issue.

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

There needs to be some data to back this up. On I-Shift or AMT's being more reliable with heavy duty applications such as trucks, it could well be that these trucks are spending most of their time on the freeway, moving at a constant speed for most of their duty cycle. The gearbox isn't shifting gears at the rate a car would and hence the system being more reliable. Some heavy duty model of Volvo trucks such as the FH and FM series have dedicated crawler gears, dual clutch units as part of the I-Shift system. All governed by software.

Unlike passenger cars the load in clutch is very high across the rpm and speed in trucks. Any small intolerance will simply burn the clutch in no time. And most importantly, the trucks will be off the road and will be near impossible to drive until you change the clutch unlike passenger car.
Crawler gears, Dual clutch have all evolved over a time.

Originally Posted by low_rider

....
The shudder being discussed here could be due to weak throttle input while the clutch gets engaged.

If the input torque is way too less in idle rpm or in creep mode, there is a chance of shuddering. But that will be a case across all operating conditions unlike the present situation on more prevalent after a couple of hours of driving or near non existing during morning drives.