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Old 11th June 2021, 00:47   #1
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Default DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

For those of you not in the know, you can get the background on my ownership review: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-...ml#post4796845 (YAPGT: Yet Another Polo GT TSI with several DIY improvements & modifications)

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0069.jpg
The gearbox out, at the VW workshop where the diagnosis was confirmed to be the clutch pack. (Note the debris of the worn out clutch all within the bellhousing.)

Anyway, the short version is that:
  • the multiclutch was cooked @ 58k kms
  • I was getting appalling goodwill warranty
  • and VW wanted me to pay them 1L for this job after including their pittance of a gesture of goodwill warranty

Warranty was a huge waste of time and money. The amount of money I could have saved by not servicing/maintaining the vehicle at VW would have almost bought me my multiclutch and flywheel. What really bugs me is that the whole purpose of wanting warranty was in the eventuality of a multiclutch failure and VW has acted pretty shamefully about the whole ordeal. If there is no support for someone who has followed the service regime to the T, what is the average Joe to expect?

At this point, I was frankly quite fed up of them and decided to go ahead and change the clutch on my own. I asked my mechanic about it, and he said he hasn't done a DQ200 before, and none of his mech friends had any experience of it either. Yet, I was still determined, so I went ahead and did my own research on how to change the multiclutch/clutch pack of the 7 speed DQ200. I found many helpful videos (not a single one had complete info), went into n number of pages of the Google search result, and felt confident that I could do the job without worrying about it. All this research was over the 45 day lockdown, and the day it was lifted I went and bought the Luk repair kit.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0063.jpg

Luk is the OEM supplier for this part as evidenced by the OE clutch of my Polo. DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0068.jpg
Closeup shows the faint LUK stamping on the dual clutch.

The same day was dedicated to removing the fittings and the gearbox itself. The temperatures in Delhi are soaring this week at it was probably 40 degrees in the shade all throughout this project.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0054.jpg
The various bits of the clutchpack removed

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0062.jpg
The worn out fingers of the clutch.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0053.jpg
Huge amount of debris in the bellhousing. The temps must have been pretty high in the GB because one of the shifter forks has plastic supports for a bearing, and that was not there on the fork that was removed!

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0061.jpg
The housing after it had been cleaned up with compressed air, and then washed with petrol and a small brush. In this, the small fork and bearing have been installed already.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0055.jpg
The forks in place, and the splines of the input shaft have been greased. The shims were measured using a vernier caliper and then placed for their respective bearings.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0059.jpg
The clutch pack ready to go in!

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0058.jpg
And installed! I missed a few pictures at this point because I was too involved in the installation, but basically the clutch needs to be pressed in for the locking ring to snap into place, and after that the clutch hub needs to be aligned with the markings on the clutch and pressed into place and secured using a locking ring.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210611wa0057.jpg
Pretty black for something that's supposedly sealed for life. Not sure what the term means though, since there is no definition of life - is it the till the transmission breaks? Is it till the end of time?

None of the guides mentioned that the gear oil will leak out through the breather cap, and I didn't think to drain the oil before. So most of it leaked out onto the ground (can be seen in some photos). This is a special gear oil for the DQ200, so I had to get it via countersale at VW itself. The capacity is 1.9 litres and needs to be filled from the breather port.

Note: this transmission has two oils, one for the gearbox and one of the mechatronic. I also went ahead and topped up the mechatronic fluid, luckily I managed to find the right fluid in the aftermarket.

Last edited by Viraat13 : 19th June 2021 at 01:26.
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Old 19th June 2021, 00:43   #2
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Default re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

The Flywheel

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210619wa0018.jpg

All through this project I was working on the premise that the flywheel didn't need replacement as such (basis some incorrect advise I recieved), but to my disappointment, I found out that I was wrong all along, and this was only after the gearbox had been reinstalled! So, after starting the car (for the first time) and finding a disconcerting rattling noise, I and the mech had all sorts of worries, but we finally put our heads together and decided to change the flywheel and then see if it was resolved.

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As is visible, the new flywheel doesn't have even an mm of play. A senior technician at the VW workshop had told me that 1 inch of play in the flywheel was acceptable, and that it didn't really need to be changed.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210619wa0019.jpg
The new flywheel.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210619wa0017.jpg
While being installed.

So the next day the process of fitting the GB back was started again, and this time when we started the car there was... Nothing! It sounded just right and worked fine in a small drive within the parking of the compound.

After this, there is an entire basic settings procedure which needs to be done via VCDS, for this I contacted Dr Code My VW on Instagram, and he did the settings as per the guide on Ross Tech.

After the basic settings, I did a test drive and everything checks out. A part of the process of the basic settings is a predefined drive that I am probably only going to be able to do on Sunday morning.

I am really happy to have the Polo back on the road after 2 long months, and catching up on the kms. I've driven around 200km in the 3 days since I've had the car back with me, and I couldn't have been more pleased with the results!

Last edited by Viraat13 : 19th June 2021 at 01:27.
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Old 19th June 2021, 01:08   #3
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Default re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

The Result:
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The shifting it pretty perfect, and like I said, I couldn't be happier.

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-img20210619wa0023.jpg
First time the TSIs were parked together for the night. Of course, the Skoda had been here before as it belonged to a fellow BHPian and good friend, Dhruvritzed.

My thoughts at the end of this entire project or ordeal (depending on how you want to look at it):
  1. I love VW cars, but their customer service sucks.
  2. (I'm a sucker for punishment, I'm on my 3rd VAG now. )
  3. The DQ200 is no doubt tough to fix, but doable.
  4. I'm happy to help anyone who may decide to go the aftermarket route with a DQ200 clutchpack replacement.

Last edited by Viraat13 : 19th June 2021 at 01:27.
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Old 19th June 2021, 05:41   #4
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Default re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Thread moved out from the Assembly Line. Thanks for sharing!
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Old 19th June 2021, 07:46   #5
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Some two weeks ago, I was witness to some work being done on a 2014 Polo GT TSI that just wouldn't move. The vehicle was towed to the works, and this is what was observed. It wasn't my car, and so I wasn't fully involved in what was done. Else I'd have been able to share full details. Nevertheless, here goes.

Observations on Scanning - Round1

Error codes P1725 and P176F shown below

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-polo_scan1.jpg

Stage1 Repair, refitment and trial run

I was told that the TCM and a motor in the Mechatronics was refurbished using good parts from another totalled GT TSI. The gearbox was fitted back and the car was trial run. It was observed that the gears would shift 1-7 but after releasing the foot of the gas pedal, and/or pressing the brake pedal, the car wouldn't downshift. Switching the ignition off, and then on would bring it back to normal.

Stage2 Repair

A second scan threw up an additional code P177C

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-errorcode_transmission_vwpologttsi.jpg

The clutch was inspected, and not much wear was observed on the clutch fingers. New shims were installed, gear box refitted, and "re-adaptation" was performed using VW ODIS.

Work in progress

Before the clutch was removed
DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-pologttsi_clutchinbellhousing.jpg

Bell Housing after the clutch and forks were removed
DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-polo_clutchremoved.jpg

DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-polo_bellhousing_clutchremoved.jpg

The forks
DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-polo_forks.jpg

Rear view of the clutch
DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-polo_clutch.jpg

Front view of the clutch
DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-polo_clutch2.jpg

Inspection
DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI-polo_bellhousing_1.jpg

I wasn't present when the unit was being re-assembled.

Stage2 Trial Run

Up-shifting was perfect, car wouldn't downshift on releasing the foot off the gas pedal BUT downshift was perfect after the brake was pressed.

I think the owner had already seen his pockets getting empty and decided to take the car in this state. Damages were to the tune of INR 75k; so much for a car that had just 75k kms on the odo.
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Old 19th June 2021, 08:36   #6
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Great thread Viraat . Can you also share the cost of the spares? Would be helpful for anyone with busted DSG towards this route. Does VW sell the Clutch and DMF over the counter?
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Old 19th June 2021, 09:26   #7
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Great info. As a guy who moved from DQ250 to DQ200, this makes me really nervous.
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Old 19th June 2021, 09:32   #8
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Excellent thread! You really did some deep research on this matter and it can be seen. Didn't feel like your FNG was doing it for the first time. You even managed to top up the mechatronics fluid, which is something most VW dealers scoff at. All they do is sit and replace mechatronics all day long after waiting for it to fail.

It's really amusing to see that VW refused to cover things under warranty for you (both complete and partial). After all, an average DQ200 buyer from what I have noticed only refrains from modding and gets his car serviced at VW, strictly under the pretext that he will get some sort of warranty on them. This new trend of denying any sort of warranty even on cars that have a perfect service record is worrying.

Last edited by vishy76 : 19th June 2021 at 09:35.
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Old 19th June 2021, 10:01   #9
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Great info. Could you please post details about the cost? How much would it cost at VW without any warranty/discount vs if you go with a private garages?

It would be fantastic if the DSG repairs become cheap and accessible. I suppose it will eventually happen given the number of DSGs in the country.
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Old 19th June 2021, 10:17   #10
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Fantastic fix. This builds my confidence a lot in this car given that you are not at mercy of VW and their pathetic warranty policy to get the car fixed. At the end of the day clutch pack is a wear and tear item but VW charges don't line up with that.
I can finally stop being worried about the warranty and just have fun with the car(even do some mods) and can get the clutch work done even aftermarket for a sensible amount. Great team you got, right from spares, to mechanics and software. Wishing you many miles with your new Multi clutch
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Old 19th June 2021, 10:19   #11
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Having seen your car and my own car having same issues, I have some common observations that I'd like to share with fellow BHPians for their collective benefit, although Vigsom sir has also given some excellent inputs already:

1. The multiclutch no doubt is highly priced but some negotiation usually goes a long way in ensuring you get a palatable price.
2. I recommend everyone change the flywheel with multiclutch by default, it's a very small expense that shouldn't be postponed, as I had recommended to you too.
3. Actuation valve error is something that i got on multiclutch failure, usually there are a lot other errors that people have posted, mechatronic failure is indicated by most of them.
4. The DSG records every instance of the car engaged in D and not moving, I had the exact date with me when it first happened and the scanner displayed the same.
5. The car will feel slow post multiclutch and flywheel change, would recommend a highway run immediately post change.
6. I changed mechatronic oil at VW itself on the very next service, it was expensive but worth it, again it required a bit of bed in.
7. My car runs exactly same as it did pre change, having done 12000+ km post change.
8. Point to be noted - VW noida gave.md an unconditional warranty on the gearbox for 2 years post change.
9. I got a 48% Goodwill discount because of immaculate service record and good relationship with SA's(might not happen with everyone).
I still believe Viraat13 is technically superior and his penchant and knowhow is amazing, all through my car's change of parts, I was connected to him.
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Old 19th June 2021, 10:24   #12
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

@viraat13: It takes courage to take such step and I must say you’ve proved yourself. A normal person would have sleepless nights if this Gearbox starts troubling. This article would surely give some relief to all DQ200 users. However, sharing the cost of spares and labour would be of utmost help.
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Old 19th June 2021, 10:35   #13
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Excellent write up. Will definitely help owners understand and take decisions on replacement and costing (Though Virat is yet to share the cost incurred) Hope though none of us ever have to experience the failure.

Will the extended warranty not cover such a failure? Now VW has 7 years of warranty which now makes me realise it's importance. Has anyone come up with a cost analysis of the EW versus getting the DSG replaced at VW SC? Now there could be another side to the coin i.e. after market fitment as shown in this thread.
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Old 19th June 2021, 10:42   #14
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Hello Members, my parents own a 7 year VW Polo 1.2 TDI which has just run 18000 km. However the performance & pickup is very lethargic. We got it inspected couple of times at VW service but they said its fine.

Can you suggest if this can be fixed or we should replace the car?
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Old 19th June 2021, 11:14   #15
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Default Re: DSG FIX - Multiclutch replacement of the DQ200 on my VW Polo GT TSI

Quote:
Originally Posted by vigsom View Post
Error codes P1725 and P176F shown below
...
A second scan threw up an additional code P177C
...
I think the owner had already seen his pockets getting empty and decided to take the car in this state. Damages were to the tune of INR 75k; so much for a car that had just 75k kms on the odo.
Implasuble output signal is usually related to the speed sensor but also comes up when the clutch is failing. I had similar trouble codes.

The other two codes (Closes unintentionally and Tolerance Limit reached) I had on my car for the past 8-10k kms and it was driveable, but I knew it would give up any day.

I hadn't planned on spending 70-80K on the car like this either, but VW's change/realignment in warranty policy left a lot of us in the lurch when we had been banking on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avsrihari View Post
Great thread Viraat . Can you also share the cost of the spares? Would be helpful for anyone with busted DSG towards this route. Does VW sell the Clutch and DMF over the counter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by androdev View Post
Great info. Could you please post details about the cost? How much would it cost at VW without any warranty/discount vs if you go with a private garages?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSuri View Post
@viraat13: It takes courage to take such step and I must say you’ve proved yourself. A normal person would have sleepless nights if this Gearbox starts troubling. This article would surely give some relief to all DQ200 users. However, sharing the cost of spares and labour would be of utmost help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VWAllstar View Post
Excellent write up. Will definitely help owners understand and take decisions on replacement and costing (Though Virat is yet to share the cost incurred) Hope though none of us ever have to experience the failure.
Will the extended warranty not cover such a failure? Now VW has 7 years of warranty which now makes me realise it's importance. Has anyone come up with a cost analysis of the EW versus getting the DSG replaced at VW SC? Now there could be another side to the coin i.e. after market fitment as shown in this thread.
avsrihari, androdev, SuperSuri, VWAllstar - clubbing together the answer as they are similar queries
  • Cost is in the ballpark of 75K. The cost of imported spares has been on a sharp rise lately, so they are liable to fluctuate as per the stock situation in India.
  • VW can sell the parts OTC but why would you want to buy from them? They charge almost 100% margin on both the items, and the quality of parts will be no different.
  • VW charges around 130-140K (I got varying estimates), and it is possible to save nearly 50% of this in the aftermarket.
  • Regarding warranty - when I was due for the renewal of the 6th year I was told that VW has changed it's add on warranty policy (and basically pulled the rug from under my feet), and said no further warranty is available. I had started to hear some odd noises from the GB just around this time and tried damn hard to get them to do something about it but they refused - hence the bitter feelings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vredesbyrd View Post
Great info. As a guy who moved from DQ250 to DQ200, this makes me really nervous.
Not too much to worry about IMO. My usage pattern was such that it accelerated the wear. Basically if you're not driving in bumper to bumper traffic all the time, you won't have to deal with these issues till the 70-80k km mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
Excellent thread! You really did some deep research on this matter and it can be seen. Didn't feel like your FNG was doing it for the first time. You even managed to top up the mechatronics fluid, which is something most VW dealers scoff at. All they do is sit and replace mechatronics all day long after waiting for it to fail.

It's really amusing to see that VW refused to cover things under warranty for you (both complete and partial). After all, an average DQ200 buyer from what I have noticed only refrains from modding and gets his car serviced at VW, strictly under the pretext that he will get some sort of warranty on them. This new trend of denying any sort of warranty even on cars that have a perfect service record is worrying.
Thanks Vishy. In hindsight, spending 100% extra on each service, and maintaining the car at VW + buying EW twice was a major waste of money and time. I could have saved a bunch of money maintaining the car myself and the net savings would have bought me parts for the clutch repair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agambhandari View Post
Fantastic fix. This builds my confidence a lot in this car given that you are not at mercy of VW and their pathetic warranty policy to get the car fixed. At the end of the day clutch pack is a wear and tear item but VW charges don't line up with that.
I can finally stop being worried about the warranty and just have fun with the car(even do some mods) and can get the clutch work done even aftermarket for a sensible amount. Great team you got, right from spares, to mechanics and software. Wishing you many miles with your new Multi clutch
Mod to your hearts extent. I don't think your usage warrants any sort of worry, if in case the clutch fails in your ownership, it is a 24 hour fix (not weeks that VW takes).

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhruvritzed View Post
Having seen your car and my own car having same issues, I have some common observations that I'd like to share with fellow BHPians for their collective benefit, although Vigsom sir has also given some excellent inputs already:

1. The multiclutch no doubt is highly priced but some negotiation usually goes a long way in ensuring you get a palatable price.
2. I recommend everyone change the flywheel with multiclutch by default, it's a very small expense that shouldn't be postponed, as I had recommended to you too.
3. Actuation valve error is something that i got on multiclutch failure, usually there are a lot other errors that people have posted, mechatronic failure is indicated by most of them.
4. The DSG records every instance of the car engaged in D and not moving, I had the exact date with me when it first happened and the scanner displayed the same.
5. The car will feel slow post multiclutch and flywheel change, would recommend a highway run immediately post change.
6. I changed mechatronic oil at VW itself on the very next service, it was expensive but worth it, again it required a bit of bed in.
7. My car runs exactly same as it did pre change, having done 12000+ km post change.
8. Point to be noted - VW noida gave.md an unconditional warranty on the gearbox for 2 years post change.
9. I got a 48% Goodwill discount because of immaculate service record and good relationship with SA's(might not happen with everyone).
I still believe Viraat13 is technically superior and his penchant and knowhow is amazing, all through my car's change of parts, I was connected to him.
Thanks for the input Dhruv, you already know the story of the goodwill support negotiation and all the time wasted. Do agree that you were right about the flywheel, however labour cost wasn't a major concern for me and so I felt it was OK to experiment. Even the aftermarket scanners are able to show exact date and km of clutch failure, so I too got to reconfirm the dates when I felt the car was misbehaving.

Highway run is probably tomorrow morning since the Jewar road is the only place where I will be able to complete the predefined drive for the basic settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CafeRacer16 View Post
Hello Members, my parents own a 7 year VW Polo 1.2 TDI which has just run 18000 km. However the performance & pickup is very lethargic. We got it inspected couple of times at VW service but they said its fine.

Can you suggest if this can be fixed or we should replace the car?
Consider doing a full service: engine oil, oil filter, air filter, fuel filter. Add the VW recommended TSI additive or use a good injector cleaner additive like Liquimoly or similar. Do also drive the car hard at highway speeds (search: Italian Tune Up) and I think you will find that the performance will be back to standard.
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