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Old 21st June 2021, 16:58   #1
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Default Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Hello Everyone
As we know all the cars now have to comply with BS6 fuel emission norms, while hunting for my new car there is One question that comes to my mind.
Can I erase the BS6 system from my Car once it is out of the warranty ?
For any reason example: Off-roading or system failure or a Particular maker's BS6 system is not up to mark & expensive to maintain the system( out of warranty). Someone wants to erase the system. Is it possible in INDIA?

Quote:
"For NOx reduction, all diesel engines above 2.0 litres need Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR), which is a clever emissions control system that injects ammonia-based urea, or what is called Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF), into the exhaust. The ammonia in the fluid triggers a chemical reaction that essentially converts NOx into harmless nitrogen and water. SCR technology alone can achieve NOx reductions of up to 90 percent and allows diesel engines to comfortably meet the norms. However, the DEF needs regular replenishment, and hence all SCR-equipped cars have an onboard DEF tank thatíll need to be topped up every 10,000km or so, depending on the usage. This can be done when the car goes for a routine service, or at a fuel station. Trouble is that SCR systems are hugely expensive and add over Rs 1 lakh to the cost of the car, threatening to price them out of the market. Hence, itís only on big, expensive cars and SUVs that SCR is viable.
The technology that mainstream Indian car companies are banking on is a Lean NOx Trap (LNT) because itís a cost-effective solution thatís much cheaper than SCR. A cannister placed downstream of the engineís exhaust manifold traps NOx as the name suggests. When the cannister or trap fills up, a richer fuel mixture is injected into the engine, and that reacts with the NOx, converts it to harmless nitrogen, and is then expelled from the LNT into the exhaust system."
Source: AutocarIndia


Attached BS6 Engine Diagrams from AutocarIndia
Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?-bs6-engine-diagrams.jpg


Looks like a simple and easy process, but I was unable to find any thread on TBHP or anywhere else about this.
I know after removing this car will not be roadworthy as per law and no one shall do it. But for Offroading or any reason if some want to erase the system, is it possible?

You can find so many videos online and so many links to do the same in Other countries.
Example: Avontuning , Maxtune and many more.
Even one can find out so many videos on youtube to delete these systems.

Other Question in my Mind:

What will the effect of deletion of these filters or systems on the car?
Will it become the normal BS4 car after the deletion of these filters and systems?

Mod's: I was unable to find the thread on this matter. Kindly modify as required and move it to the appropriate section. Thanks.
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Old 21st June 2021, 19:48   #2
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Default re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

This LNT/SCR system is not just a filter that can be simply removed.
There are sensors and injectors involved, which might go haywire, if tampered.
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Old 21st June 2021, 19:58   #3
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Default re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

From my limited knowledge discussing with people who are closely working in this field, it will not be easy removing the systems as there are multiple sensors fitted at different places for monitoring which will keep getting wrong values, making the instrument cluster light up with errors. This again maybe resolved by replacing each BS6 part with a BS4 part, but that will be a very costly affair. In fact, in case of a few vehicles, there have been extensive changes inside the engine itself. So theoretically, it is possible, but may not be advisable.

And if pure off road use is being considered, it is always better getting a well maintained, pre-owned vehicle from BS4 era or earlier rather than extensively modifying a new BS6 vehicle which may compromise its reliability more than the pre-owned one.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 00:01   #4
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Default re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmmachine View Post
Can I erase the BS6 system from my Car once it is out of the warranty ?
A friend of mine has a Euro 6 Mercedes Sprinter. The car has been downgraded to Euro 3 and the AdBlue tank is for show.

The DPF was punched through and another software he got from the UK used. The car passed a technical inspection at the Mercedes dealer this summer.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 00:40   #5
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Default re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian2003 View Post
A friend of mine has a Euro 6 Mercedes Sprinter. The car has been downgraded to Euro 3 and the AdBlue tank is for show.

The DPF was punched through and another software he got from the UK used. The car passed a technical inspection at the Mercedes dealer this summer.
Thanks for your reply. In Europe, you have so many options. Even I had word with 2-3 Groups about same.
As per them
"It's an easy process and you will not see any changes in the system. They will delete the filters only and no changes to the Engine. For some models that have an option to disable the AdBlue system through software upgradation after deletion of the hardware."
There are videos on Youtube for same.
Link to someone's Youtube Video (Pasting link and Source). .



They said that you will never get any kind of problems with the ENGINE. It's an easy process and No one will be able to detect it. The rest of the hardware including Adblue tank will remain there as dummy only.

Also there is a Video on youtube with title SHOULD YOU REMOVE YOUR DPF? How it affects power gains & fuel use - You won't believe the difference" (Pasting link and Source)


In UK and Europe, they are ready to send the technicians to your home for this Job.
I'm trying to find out if anyone has done the same here in INDIA. If anyone is aware of this deletion process and the way to delete it.
I know many people are suffering from Filter choking in 1.5 Ltr Diesel engines and they need to visit the showrooms for active regeneration and cleaning of the O2 sensors.
I think many people in INDIA will go for this deletion (Subjective).
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:01   #6
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Default re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

I think it is a matter of a remap after removing the hardware.
Just like how the EGR is disabled through the software during a remap, I am sure it is matter of time one of the tuners finds a way to disable the sensors.
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Old 22nd June 2021, 09:24   #7
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Default re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

What exactly is the problem with BS6 system that you want to remove it? You mentioned off-roading. What is the issue with this filter system that makes it sub-par for off-road use? The amount of time and money spent will result in what kind of gains?
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Old 23rd June 2021, 09:22   #8
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Default Re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmmachine View Post
Also there is a Video on Youtube with title SHOULD YOU REMOVE YOUR DPF? How it affects power gains & fuel use - You won't believe the difference" (Pasting link and Source) here
Watched the whole video and I don't find any drastic difference in Power and Torque figures as such.
Jump to 7:23 and see only 0.6 kW increase in Power.
In the first Dyno run they have shown difference after retuning with the DPF already fitted.

I too was contemplating on deleting DPF of my Seltos after warranty during first 5k of ownership due to lower mileage figures, but after the first Oil change I am happy with the fuel economy.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 14:29   #9
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Default Re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

I would like to mention here, that it is illegal to tamper with emission devices. Also removing Emission Control Devices are harmful for the environment.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 23:03   #10
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Default Re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

I think going forth, with more and more BS6 vehicles entering the road, there are chances of such 'services' being offered to those cars which would commonly show up problems, or with cabbies trying to get away from a clogged DPF. However, it isnt an easy task since it requires both mechanical modification as well as some electrical mods/software reprogramming which would either fool the ECU to think that all is well with the after treatment, or completely disable all the diagnostics with the after treatment systems. And this isnt simple, since the DPF has its own diagnostic setup and the LNT/SCR would have its own elaborate system.

Hence, to sum it up, better use them as it is and not think of deleting or removing these parts. If you are worried about DPF getting clogged beyond the point of regeneration then keep in mind that we would be offered some cleaning or purging services as well to give a new lease of life to it. With SCR, I think its more reliable in the longrun compared to an LNT setup since the SCR does not need to regenerate over time. It just needs continuous supply of Adblue.
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Old 23rd June 2021, 23:36   #11
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Default Re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmmachine View Post
Can I erase the BS6 system from my Car once it is out of the warranty ?
For any reason example: Off-roading or system failure or a Particular maker's BS6 system is not up to mark & expensive to maintain the system( out of warranty). Someone wants to erase the system. Is it possible in INDIA?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indian2003 View Post
A friend of mine has a Euro 6 Mercedes Sprinter. The car has been downgraded to Euro 3 and the AdBlue tank is for show.
The DPF was punched through and another software he got from the UK used. The car passed a technical inspection at the Mercedes dealer this summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmmachine View Post
Thanks for your reply. In Europe, you have so many options. Even I had word with 2-3 Groups about same.
As per them
"It's an easy process and you will not see any changes in the system. They will delete the filters only and no changes to the Engine. For some models that have an option to disable the AdBlue system through software upgradation after deletion of the hardware."
Quote:
Originally Posted by tharian View Post
I think it is a matter of a remap after removing the hardware.
Just like how the EGR is disabled through the software during a remap, I am sure it is matter of time one of the tuners finds a way to disable the sensors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
I think going forth, with more and more BS6 vehicles entering the road, there are chances of such 'services' being offered to those cars which would commonly show up problems, or with cabbies trying to get away from a clogged DPF.
My brain got whacked after reading OP. Surely, this is illegal (so are many other mod jobs); more than that it's irresponsible to environment, to ourselves.

Yes, we may find fun, cost savings in such measures, but to what end. Such attempts provide excuse to the learned judges and administration to put blanket ban.

By the way, if one doesn't like to maintain these after treatment technologies as they may be hassle to maintain, that person can opt for petrol vehicle.

Sorry to be sounding harsh, I usually don't get rattled on technical topics, but this touched some nerve.
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Old 28th June 2021, 00:47   #12
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Default Re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Hello everyone.

Removal is possible and not a super technical thing. I have a Passat 2.0 DSG 2014 model the ones involved in Diesel scam by VW. I have removed the EGR and DPF with the help of few softwares. Won't be naming them as I have used clone versions. Since my ECU was screwed up due to water ingress. I replaced it with an ECU bought from Lithuania. The replacement ECU was showing several fault codes, all related to pollution sensors not available in Indian counterparts. So I purchased a K-tag for ECU reading and few other softwares for deleting EGR and DPF sensors. Trust me the difference in drive is comparable to stage 1 tuning.

We have also removed Ad-blue issue from a Mercedes c 250 using same clone software. With "Winols software" one can easily read all the electronic maps present in the ECU relating to the car's engine performance right from intake to injection or to exhaust. This is used by the tuners to change the performance maps commonly known as stage 1 or stage 2 etc. With a little bit deeper digging I am sure these new pollution sensors in BS6 versions can be removed.

I would personally suggest any one doing similar stuff to replace the DPF filter physically with a performance filter as well which boosts the performance like anything. the only draw back which I faced after removal of DPF or EGR was that the Heater plug light started glowing after 5-6 K kms. as the ECU rechecks the Sensors after a periodic cycle. But I think I can get my way out of that too but need some time to dig deeper.

Last edited by Eddy : 29th June 2021 at 12:55. Reason: spacing for better readability
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Old 4th July 2021, 23:15   #13
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Default Re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AutoNoob View Post
Sorry to be sounding harsh, I usually don't get rattled on technical topics, but this touched some nerve.
Unfortunately I did not understand why this had to touch your nerve or whack your brain to this extent. Of course, it is illegal to alter your car in anyway especially when it is going to affect its emission norms. The discussion here is about the possibility and not about the legality since the OP has clearly mentioned about the same. So I would suggest to keep the thread limited to the technicality of these systems and discuss the legality elsewhere. Just like any other mods like Decat, EGR delete and the like which have been largely preferred by those looking to improve the performance of the car.

Also, while we here are worried about the impact caused on the environment, BS6 itself is a major leap ahead for emissions in India and its not that every owner of BS6 car would consider these hacks. For a normal user like me, I would never consider doing such a thing. The most probable customers IMO would be cabbies or other fleet owners who would find this an annoyance. But the moment pollution checks fail, and they find difficulties in renewing fitness certificates, I feel people will learn their lessons. The only drawback being this would depend on the efficiency of enforcement by relevant agencies of the government which is the main stakeholder in the first place. Until then, there will be outliers to every new regulation and concept.
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Old 7th July 2021, 00:11   #14
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Default Re: Is it possible to delete the BS6 "LNT" or "SCR" systems in India?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
So I would suggest to keep the thread limited to the technicality of these systems and discuss the legality elsewhere.
You are correct, wasn't thinking straight that day and missed that this sub-forum is dedicated to technical aspects.

Quote:
Unfortunately I did not understand why this had to touch your nerve or whack your brain to this extent.
Won't be able to explain this fully. Just praying that any administrator, jurist, police authority doesn't cite such mods (however small numbers might be) and put another blanket ban.
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