[niruvrs9669]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

That looks interesting, can you point to more readings..

Note by Venkat:

>> You can start here and follow the rabbit hole: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1425947
If LL04 is inevitable, the only option seems to be to change it reliiously at 5000 or 6000 km and hope it fares better.

Is this actually proposed by BMW or just this technical guy at the Dealership? The reasons being that BMW in the past never encourages the use of sleeves or oversize rings etc.

>> They do, actually. This is the correct way to overhaul a worn out engine. 1st oversize pistons and rings are available as legitimate engine rebuild parts in BMW's own ETK and the TIS specifies the target bore diameter for a stock and 1st oversize cylinder. What is forbidden, however, is replacing the entire sleeve. This is why sleeves in the factory are installed with room for one or two over sizes. As long as the bore is machined correctly to the right dimension and the crosshatch depth and angle of the hone is proper, a rebuild is a perfectly good option. If BMW follow their procedures to the letter, this should not be a problem. Half measures like replacing a single piston assembly, however is a major problem.

More info here:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...als/11-engine/ (might require signup)
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=11_4063
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...&q=11257812596

Is this actually proposed by BMW or just this technical guy at the Dealership?

>> The dealership is supposedly following whatever instructions they receive from the technical head at the company, ie. single piston replacement etc. We are the ones pushing for full short block replacement or a comprehensive by-the-book rebuild.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

As I wrote before, if the findings do not point to any delays to services or anything else, you don't need to worry. Let them review everything, your case has all the attention at HQ

Thank you very much for your effort on this. Appreciate it.

[Santoshbhat]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

This points to a general lubrication problem, and has absolutely nothing to do with how the car was driven over its life.

I was just wondering, since you mentioned that there seems to be a lubrication problem, does it have anything to do with the fact that we are getting BS VI diesel everywhere now as opposed to BS IV which we were filling earlier?

As I understand BS VI diesel has lower lubricity compared to BS IV, due to lower sulphur content. Was there a discussion on these lines with the service centre or your advisor friend?

[ssjr0498]

The issue is the oil, not the fuel! "https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1425947"

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

I was just wondering, since you mentioned that there seems to be a lubrication problem, does it have anything to do with the fact that we are getting BS VI diesel everywhere now as opposed to BS IV which we were filling earlier?

As I understand BS VI diesel has lower lubricity compared to BS IV, due to lower sulphur content. Was there a discussion on these lines with the service centre or your advisor friend?

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

The dealership is supposedly following whatever instructions they receive from the technical head at the company, We are the ones pushing for full short block replacement

You should have an answer by tomorrow, if these are indeed out of tolerance, they will authorize replacement of block and pistons. Hope it works to your satisfaction

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

I was just wondering, since you mentioned that there seems to be a lubrication problem, does it have anything to do with the fact that we are getting BS VI diesel everywhere now as opposed to BS IV which we were filling earlier?

As I understand BS VI diesel has lower lubricity compared to BS IV, due to lower sulphur content. Was there a discussion on these lines with the service centre or your advisor friend?

On the last page (post #57), niruvrs9669 has posted that the LL04 spec oil (used in India) has problems if the diesel has high sulphur content. But BS VI diesel has lower sulphur content than BS IV. So BS VI diesel isn't a problem.

And yes, the BS VI has lower lubricity compared to BS IV due to lower sulphur content. But the lubrication on the crank pins, main bearings and piston pin is provided by the engine oil, not diesel.

To all members / experts:
I did not understand one thing. How does the fuel, which is restricted to the combustion chamber, affects the properties of the lubricating oil in the engine. Agreed, the combustion gases do come in contact with the thin film of oil on the cylinder walls. But still I can't imagine how this weakens the oil to the extent that the oil film breaks down in the crankpin. And all this in 200 - 300 hours.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

I did not understand one thing. How does the fuel, which is restricted to the combustion chamber, affects the properties of the lubricating oil in the engine. Agreed, the combustion gases do come in contact with the thin film of oil on the cylinder walls. But still I can't imagine how this weakens the oil to the extent that the oil film breaks down in the crankpin. And all this in 200 - 300 hours.

Fuel would not affect the effective of the lub oil in a properly maintained engine in a significant way quickly. If there is a lot of blow by (e.g. broken piston rings) it can.

A leaking injector can cause havoc! Not all fuel will be ignited, some will be scraped off by the piston rings and end up in the fuel. Lub oil can quickly degrade due to fuel contamination.

Lubrication properties of diesel, and petrol, are very relevant for the fuel systems, notably the high pressure pump and injectors. And also the (exhaust) valves.

Jeroen

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Fuel would not affect the effective of the lub oil in a properly maintained engine in a significant way quickly. If there is a lot of blow by (e.g. broken piston rings) it can.

A leaking injector can cause havoc! Not all fuel will be ignited, some will be scraped off by the piston rings and end up in the fuel. Lub oil can quickly degrade due to fuel contamination.

Lubrication properties of diesel, and petrol, are very relevant for the fuel systems, notably the high pressure pump and injectors. And also the (exhaust) valves.
Jeroen

Thanks. Upon reading your post, I searched a technical magazine I know (called Machinery Lubrication) about fuel dilution of engine oil. I see the following:

Fuel Dilution
Frequent starts of an engine, excessive idling and cold running conditions can lead to moderate fuel dilution problems. Severe dilution (excess of two percent) is associated with leakage, fuel injector problems and impaired combustion efficiency. These are symptomatic of serious conditions that cannot be corrected by an oil change. According to one reference, 0.36 percent of total fuel consumption ends up in the crankcase. Problems associated with fuel dilution include:

• Diesel fuel dilution in cold operating conditions can cause waxing. During startup, this can result in low oil pressure and starvation conditions.
  
• Diesel fuel carries unsaturated aromatic molecules into the motor oil which are pro-oxidants. This can result in a premature loss of base number (loss of corrosion protection) and oxidative thickening of the motor oil, causing deposits and mild starvation.
  
• Fuel dilution can drop the viscosity of a motor oil from say, a 15W40 to a 5W20. This collapses critical oil film thicknesses, resulting in premature combustion zone wear (piston, rings and liner) and crankcase bearing wear.
  
• Fuel dilution from defective injectors commonly causes wash-down of oil on cylinder liners which accelerates ring, piston and cylinder wear. It also causes high blow-by conditions and increased oil consumption (reverse blow-by).
  
• Severe fuel dilution dilutes the concentration of oil additives and hence, diluting their effectiveness.
  
• Fuel dilution by biodiesel may result in higher than normal problems compared to diesel refined by crude stock. These problems include oxidation stability, filter plugging issues, deposit formation and volatility resulting in crankcase accumulations.

Here is the link to the article:
https://www.machinerylubrication.com...l-contaminants

Besides the fuel dilution, the article states Glycol (Coolant), Soot and Water as other three lethal contaminants of the engine oil.

Now coming back to my query, can BS VI diesel contaminate the oil faster and worse than BS IV?

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

Thanks. Upon reading your post, I searched a technical magazine I know (called Machinery Lubrication) about fuel dilution of engine oil. I see the following:


Here is the link to the article:
http://<br /> https://www.machinery...minants <br />

Besides the fuel dilution, the article states Glycol (Coolant), Soot and Water as other three lethal contaminants of the engine oil.

Now coming back to my query, can BS VI diesel contaminate the oil faster and worse than BS IV?

I can’t open the link, but to me earlier point, on a normal maintained engine, fuel dilution is not a problem.

Glycol, soot, nor water should be present in lub oil. If it is, there is a serious engine problem.

Under normal conditions and normal maintenance no harmful fuel dilution takes place, irrespective what kind of fuel or what type. There is always some, but in very small amounts it doesn’t matter. To some extend the lub oil is designed to accommodate and neutralise the effect of various components ending up in it.

There might be some theoretical difference between the different BS variant, but I doubt that would be really relevant in practice, at least for the lub oil.

It is one of the reason we need to do lub oil changes. The oil accumulates various harmful components and can only handle so much. So you change it out for new oil.

[niruvrs9669]

Originally Posted by Turbanator

You should have an answer by tomorrow, if these are indeed out of tolerance, they will authorize replacement of block and pistons. Hope it works to your satisfaction

Update received from the Service head:
All the spares photos (150+ shots) along with relevant parts measurements have been shared with BMW Technical team yesterday. Awaiting their response for next steps.


Response from the Dealer yesterday:

This is pursuant to the discussion undersigned had with you pertaining to the repairs in your vehicle, the matter is being consulted with technical team at BMW India. Kindly allow us some more time to revert with a conclusive response.


Further to my telephonic conversation with DM BMW India, received following email from BMW India (Contact.india@bmw.in) today:

At the outset, please accept our apologies for the inconvenience caused due to the inordinate delay involved in this matter.

With reference to your concern, as discussed the matter has already been referred to the Technical Manager for the respective region at BMW India for his review. Post receipt of a feedback, we shall get back to you with our response and an amicable resolution in the shortest time possible.

[niruvrs9669]

Token of Gratitude .

I would like to thank the team bhpians ('Turbantor' and rest) for your valuable and timely support during these trying times. If not for this forum and the influence it has on some of these reputed luxury brands, the road for repair even under warranty would have been quite a long one.

Special thanks to my good friend Venkat who accompanied me to the service center couple times to talk it out and press upon the right repair approach technically. He also vetted out the replacement parts list shared by BMW.

Initially what appeared to be a major breakdown on my X5, that triggered a bit of panic in me did subside after I could understand the issue better by inputs given by the folks in this forum and Venkat.

After hearing our apprehension on replacement of limited parts under warranty, I must admit that it was indeed a professional and thorough issue resolution approach taken by BMW service and technical team. Thanks to some recommendations by Turbanator at BMW HQ, the short block is now being replaced under warranty along with the other related components (attached the list).

I must mention that BMW customer support has been true to it's roles and responsibilities. They"ve coordinated very well with their technical team and the dealer to finally propose a desired replacement under warranty. Customer Support member Mr.Aditya and his Deputy Manager Mr.Dhawal Makhwana did a phenomenal job in this regard, giving us an assurance that the vehicle will be delivered to me in series standard after the installation with a 2 year warranty on the replaced parts. I think Rs.12 lacs worth parts replacement is no joke, talks a lot about this reputed brand in automobile market who didn't opt for a shortcut/lowcost approach to address the issue.

Mr.Mohammed Ahassan, Manager After Sales and Mr.Kumar, Technical Manager from Navnit Motors Bangalore have been quite patient during all our in person interactions with them and their Service advisor Mr.Dayanand. They showed us around all the dismantled spares at the service station, allowed us enough time to look up and take some photos for our reference, answered all our queries to best of their knowledge. They seemed quite transparent about the diagnosis report shared with us, without holding back any detail. They also assured that the installation will be done exactly as per BMW repair manual and will restore the car to series standard.

I did get a bit impatient when the loaner car was delayed due to unavailability, but they finally found a 3 series sedan, changed its worn out tires and got it home delivered few days ago. Fair job again.

All in all, I sincerely hope the car will be delivered as assured and I hope to munch many more miles on this gem of an SUV .


I request GTO/Moderator, to edit the title of this thread to "BMW Engine failure on X5 - professionally being replaced under warranty"

[androdev]

Congratulations. Comprehensive repair with 2-year warranty is the standard resolution and I never had a doubt. Hope you get your car back real soon.

Just curious, what would a completely new engine block cost and hypothetically if you want to opt for that how much would you have to pay out of pocket? Assuming they adjust this 12L and also give you some discount on the new part. If it is under 4L, I might be tempted to go for it if the rest of the car is in excellent condition. (Please find out - you will be doing a great service to the forum with that kind of info)

You just sold extended warranty to all the folks who might be sitting on the fence ;-)

[Turbanator]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

I sincerely hope the car will be delivered as assured and I hope to munch many more miles on this gem of an SUV

Am glad it worked for you.

Originally Posted by androdev

what would a completely new engine block cost and hypothetically if you want to opt for that how much would you have to pay out of pocket? Assuming they adjust this 12L and also give you some discount on the new part. If it is under 4L, I might be tempted to go for it if the rest of the car is in excellent condition

Tried, but it’s not possible. Warranty is handled totally differently. If we want to buy a new engine, they may offer some discounts but won’t adjust anything from the warranty repairs they might have saved. Will be difficult to handle such things I guess.

I am sure wherever is being reused is being measured and checked, technically, the whole engine now gets 2 year warranty, so they will themselves be very sure before they use old parts.

Once again, it does prove that BMW folks are very nice and goes all the way to satisfy the customer

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by niruvrs9669

Finally there's an update from BMW service manager on the engine issue:

Observations made after dismantling the engine:
1) The 3rd cylinder in the engine had a piston freeze.
2) The piston (in the 3rd cylinder) is bent
3) The cylinder inner surface is clean (wonder how!)
4) The connecting rod bearing(s) are broken
5) The engine oil tested had metal content in it.

Parts Replacement proposed by BMW:
1) Replacement of piston and connected accessories in the 3rd cylinder
2) Connecting rod and bearings to be replaced.
3) Crank shaft itself to be replaced
4) Engine oil pump & filter to be replaced to clear metal debris
5) Turbo to be replaced as there is possibility of metal debris in it.

Appreciate team-bhpians 2 cents on my above action plan.

Finally, the diagnosis is done completely.
And I am proud and happy that my guess and explanation are spot on.
I sincerely hope that you get your car back with a smiling face.

[iliketurtles]

Very glad to see that BMW did the right thing and are looking to fix this comprehensively. I haven’t got much experience with the brand, but I’ve always heard tales of how at a dealership and company level they support customers to the fullest extent. This is just another example of it.

Contrast this with the Audi story that was floating around here a week or two ago, where they were dithering on fixing the discoloured leather. Issues do crop up with any brand, it’s how it’s handled that matters.

Instances like this go a long way to reinforce customer faith in the brand. Here’s hoping you enjoy the X5 for many more years.

[carthick1000]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Will be interesting to hear what they find the problem is and more importantly the root cause.

niruvrs9669, I am curious too. After all these discussions, was it clear what the root cause of the issue was? (Excuses, if I have missed it somewhere in the previous posts.Thanks.)